Calls to scrap 195-year-old Vagrancy Act

[Still Waters]

A leading homelessness charity, police and politicians are calling on the government to scrap a 195-year-old law that criminalises homeless people for rough sleeping and begging in England and Wales.

A report by Crisis, backed by MPs and police representatives, outlines the case for repealing the 1824 Vagrancy Act, which critics warn makes poverty a crime and pushes rough sleepers away from help.

The act hit the headlines when the head of Windsor council suggested police use the law to clear “an epidemic of rough sleeping and vagrancy in Windsor” ahead of last year’s royal wedding.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/19/calls-for-195-year-old-vagrancy-act-scrapped-homeless

[stevewinn]

keep the Law, arrest them and quick deportation.

[aztek]

deport where? they are your citizens.

[toast]

6 minutes ago, aztek said:

deport where? they are your citizens.

Windsor Castle.

[Essan]

Interesting reading the 1824 vagrancy act.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo4/5/83/section/4

Whilst beggars and wild campers can be sent to prison for 3 months, so too could anyone "exposing to view, in any street, road, highway, or public place, any obscene print, picture, or other indecent exhibition" - which might be interpreted as criminalising quite a few advertising hoardings .....


It's also sexist since exposing yourself is only a crime if it's with the intent of insulting a female.   No reference to other genders! 

[ExpandMyMind]

44 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

keep the Law, arrest them and quick deportation.

You want all the homeless from around England sent back to Liverpool? 

[aztek]

what they should do it to grab every homeless, wash them, put them into a uniform, give them brooms, and put them back. on the streets,  why bother arresting, housing them. Use them.  promise them drugs and booze for keeping streets clean

[stevewinn]

 

1 hour ago, aztek said:

deport where? they are your citizens.

well, it goes without saying those who CAN be deported.

when a charity here in Liverpool in partnership with the council went on a walk about at Christmas to gather statistics on the homeless they found 70% were eastern European these clearly should be arrested and deported back. and its not just here when we went to the Manchester Arena we stopped off at archies on oxford st? we turned down the side street and my god it was tent city. not one word of english was to be heard.

As for our own citizens? cant we send them to Australia? Canada? South Africa? somewhere out the way.

 

[TigerBright19]

Plenty of abandoned buildings.  Can't they be converted for general accommodation?  Plenty of squatters barricading themselves inside horrid conditions just for warmth and shelter and being evicted by force, but maybe some kind of legal action could green light those abandoned buildings for public use?

 

 

[aztek]

44 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said:

Plenty of abandoned buildings.  Can't they be converted for general accommodation?  Plenty of squatters barricading themselves inside horrid conditions just for warmth and shelter and being evicted by force, but maybe some kind of legal action could green light those abandoned buildings for public use?

 

 

sure, however they will turn them back into filthy shacks with horrid conditions in no time.  if they wanted to live in normal conditions that would be.  not to mention it would cost many millions to do what you propose, just to lose all that in weeks, not a smart move imo

[ethereal_scout]

I'm for keeping it. Its got nothing to do with being against the homeless but rather the only opportunity they'll probably have to get arrested and as a result of that - get a Council flat and welfare.

Edited June 19, 2019 by ethereal_scout

[ExpandMyMind]

1 hour ago, ethereal_scout said:

I'm for keeping it. Its got nothing to do with being against the homeless but rather the only opportunity they'll probably have to get arrested and as a result of that - get a Council flat and welfare.

So your solution to help homeless people rise up out of their current situation is to provide them with a criminal record?

And I should probably also let you know that being arrested is not how people get offered council housing and benefits.

[ethereal_scout]

It worked that way for myself a while back. Basically I'm relying on the police being useless - because they have a job, therefore not motivated in any way to help unless they procedurally have to. 

I was unemployed and on an "illegal" source of money (the card aka 3 tap). I couldn't get a job until I was off my illegal money and couldn't get any welfare out of the job centre. Basically long story short I assaulted a constable in order to get arrested - in order to then get 'sectioned' (which I managed to pull off), therefore sent to hospital that night. Once in hospital I told them I have no money and (shortly) no accommodation. Because I wouldn't be paying rent I would loose my accommodation and therefore was determined to be homeless in hospital - in that I had no 'secure' accommodation to be returned to. Social Services were informed and they sorted everything out for me - council flat plus welfare.

The 'core' services still work - its at the periphery or the local district level things don't work. If social services get involved things should happen - but you need to be in the 'pit' for social services can be involved. I suspect if I phoned them up 3 months prior to my 'event' then nothing would have happened. However I was in the 'pit' as a result of being arrested and hospitalized. 

When it comes to those sleeping on the streets - I'm making assumptions here - I'm making assumptions that Social Services work where they are. Therefore those on the streets are those who (for many reasons) refuse help where they are - for reasons best known to themselves. The next thing is the constabulary can't do '3', they can only do '2'. They are basically a labour squad for social issues - they don't give a toss if someone is homeless or not. They don't see the homeless as a problem to solve. What I mean by '2' rather than '3' is that they don't see homelessness as an offence - inflicted by others (the Govt) - they see it as self-inflicted. Those on the streets can't play the system - assuming it works where they are. 

So that's approx. why I'm for the legislation, in that it will get them off the street and into a police station. 

I for one don't like tripping over them.

[Duke Wellington]

On ‎19‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 3:03 PM, aztek said:

deport where? they are your citizens.

Down the mines, put them to work.

[Duke Wellington]

On ‎19‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 5:26 PM, Aaron2016 said:

Plenty of abandoned buildings.  Can't they be converted for general accommodation?  Plenty of squatters barricading themselves inside horrid conditions just for warmth and shelter and being evicted by force, but maybe some kind of legal action could green light those abandoned buildings for public use?

 

 

Guys and Gals

No one in the UK is homeless for anymore than 6 weeks except by choice. Those living on the streets any longer are there by choice. In most cases they cannot get into and keep themselves in sheltered accommodation because they have behavioural problems, pets, or drug and alcohol problems.

For those ones living in the woods for years they are often criminal offenders on the run.

[TigerBright19]

1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

Guys and Gals

No one in the UK is homeless for anymore than 6 weeks except by choice. Those living on the streets any longer are there by choice. In most cases they cannot get into and keep themselves in sheltered accommodation because they have behavioural problems, pets, or drug and alcohol problems.

For those ones living in the woods for years they are often criminal offenders on the run.

I often see people sleeping rough inside sleeping bags on Victoria street in London.  I don't think they are there by choice.  When I moved to Bournemouth I was amazed by the numbers of homeless people I saw each day (many with dogs).  The YMCA stats for Bournemouth in 2017 reported that:

 

Quote

'In Autumn 2017, statistics show that 4,751 people slept rough across England. The number is up 269% since 2010.  In our local area, the number of people bedding down on Bournemouth’s streets has gone up.  The 2017 count found 48 rough sleepers, up from 39 last year.'

'The truth is that rough sleeping figures provide only part of the picture regarding homelessness. There are tens of thousands of people across the UK thought to be in a situation where they do not have a safe and secure place to live.  The total number of households in temporary accommodation in 2017 was 78,180, up 63% on the number recorded in 2010.'

'For a range of reasons, however, many people in difficulty do not qualify for help with housing or they don’t even approach their councils for help. Many stay in hostels, squats or B&Bs, in overcrowded accommodation or ‘concealed’ housing, such as on the floors or sofas of friends and family. These people are unlikely to be counted in official statistics.'

'Homelessness is also an issue that affects a significant number of young people. According to our colleagues at YMCA England, 13,030 people aged 16-25 were counted as homeless over the last year and more than 1 in 5 people being declared homeless were aged 16-24.'

'And it affects us locally: in addition to the prevalence of street begging, much of which will be connected to homelessness, homeless applications to Bournemouth Borough Council have increased from 195 in 2012/13 to 522 in 2015/16, an increase of 168%'

https://ymcabournemouth.org.uk/about-us/the-homelessness-issue/

[ethereal_scout]

Quote

Many stay in hostels, squats or B&Bs, in overcrowded accommodation or ‘concealed’ housing, such as on the floors or sofas of friends and family

Most of these wouldn't be defined a 'secure accommodation' legally therefore they should be able to get a Council House in term of the housing department doing a 'needs' assessment. However I suspect most council house depts. to be full of idiots and make up their own rules as they go along.

[Duke Wellington]

9 hours ago, ethereal_scout said:

Most of these wouldn't be defined a 'secure accommodation' legally therefore they should be able to get a Council House in term of the housing department doing a 'needs' assessment. However I suspect most council house depts. to be full of idiots and make up their own rules as they go along.

Here in the UK homeless women, or couples with a kid, or a vulnerable person, get same day emergency housing.

If its a guy and he decided to make himself homeless by choice he has to wait up to 6 weeks before he can get into emergency accommodation. If it wasn't by choice its usually quicker but can still take up to 6 weeks to happen. No one in the UK is homeless for longer than 6 weeks unless they cannot abide by the rules of the emergency housing or simply arent putting themselves forwards for it.

The usual cause is they have pets (which arent allowed in emergency housing) or they want to spend their days getting smashed out their heads on drugs and alcohol (which isn't tolerated). A controversy is that its normally the mentally ill who get stuck on the streets in the long-term as they can only cope by self-medicating with drugs and alcohol.

[Essan]

We had a homeless guy in my town earlier this year.  Was living in the entrance to a (closed down) shop.  Got himself a tent. Generous folk round here.  He soon had several bags of clothes and stuff.   But it became a bit of an eyesore.  People began complaining.    Then he got offered accommodation.  He refused it.   It took several weeks before he was eventually persuaded to accept the offered accommodation and move off the street ....

Some of those on the streets, for whatever reason, prefer to be there ....