US military drone shot down by Iranian missile

[Still Waters]

A US military drone has been shot down by an Iranian missile near to the country's airspace.

Unnamed US officials quoted by Reuters and AP news agencies said the intelligence drone was downed in international airspace over the Strait of Hormuz, south of Iran.

This contradicts reports by Iran's state-run IRNA news agency which said the country's Revolutionary Guard had shot down an American drone in its airspace.

https://news.sky.com/story/iran-claims-to-have-shot-down-usa-drone-in-iranian-airspace-11745305

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-48700965

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Nothing new. Over the years Iran destroyed and even captured US drones because those drones often violate Iranian airspace. Most likely drone finished it's intended mission.

Some media's are really hot heads and even claim this to be first sign of war while in reality both sides did things which prevent them to escalate, regardless of claims about drone being in ''international waters'' from one side and within ''Iranian airspace'' from the other.

If anything it was very irresponsible to operate military drone near Iranian border in times of crisis and if Iranians did not shot it down it would be sign of weakness. Instead of arguing who is correct about drone's position medias should ''praise'' both US and Iran for being very responsible and careful not to drag the region into madness.

 

[Dark_Grey]

2 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

If anything it was very irresponsible to operate military drone near Iranian border in times of crisis and if Iranians did not shot it down it would be sign of weakness. Instead of arguing who is correct about drone's position medias should ''praise'' both US and Iran for being very responsible and careful not to drag the region into madness.

I would expect Iran to shoot down any foreign drone in their airspace just as I would expect the US to do the same.

[acute]

4 hours ago, Still Waters said:

A US military drone has been shot down by an Iranian missile near to the country's airspace.

"Near to" or "in" is the crucial question.

No country would knowingly allow a sworn enemy to violate its airspace.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

1 hour ago, Dark_Grey said:

I would expect Iran to shoot down any foreign drone in their airspace just as I would expect the US to do the same.

It seems that sovereignty is becoming thing of 'friendly elites' - in a way that only ''good'' countries can enjoy their sovereign rights.

Only problem in that relation is the definition of ''good'' and ''bad'' countries. Is there some universal measurement or ethic scale by which we decide who is good and who is bad?

 

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Dark_Grey said:

I would expect Iran to shoot down any foreign drone in their airspace just as I would expect the US to do the same.

The Navy recon drone was unarmed and was patroling THE STRAITS.  It was 17 miles from Iran.  That's 5 miles outside Iran's territory.  They're sowing the wind.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, acute said:

"Near to" or "in" is the crucial question.

No country would knowingly allow a sworn enemy to violate its airspace.

OTOH a country that is attempting to create tensions in the world by interfering with shipping in the Straits might not want eyes on their efforts.  People have already made up their minds about who is "good" or "bad" in this situation.  Iran seems to be on course for some bad times ahead.

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

It seems that sovereignty is becoming thing of 'friendly elites' - in a way that only ''good'' countries can enjoy their sovereign rights.

Only problem in that relation is the definition of ''good'' and ''bad'' countries. Is there some universal measurement or ethic scale by which we decide who is good and who is bad?

 

So it's OK for Iran to shoot down aircraft in international skies ? 

MOST interesting, SSaL

[Sir Smoke aLot]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

So it's OK for Iran to shoot down aircraft in international skies ? 

MOST interesting, SSaL

We still do not know where the drone was, not for a fact at least.

Regardless, since things are being escalated for quite some time now and it's not a secret that US politicians want regime change in Iran don't you think that by flying in range of Iranian air defense is kinda too close to Iran in times like these?

I do not really support aggressive moves and will always stand with defending side, no matter who it is.

So the media portraits this as an issue of proximity to Iran while it is not that at all.

Drone was in range of Iranian air defense installations in times of serious crisis. That's a fact. I can not remember who said it but seems to fit this story... '' Imagine if, in Cuban missile crisis JFK said something like 'bring them on Nikita i'll bring mine i dare you' ''. That's how i see it  

[Sir Smoke aLot]

9 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

So it's OK for Iran to shoot down aircraft in international skies ? 

BTW Iran doesn't have a habit of shooting aircraft, especially civilian. ''Others'' did show such behavior.

[DarkHunter]

14 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

We still do not know where the drone was, not for a fact at least.

Regardless, since things are being escalated for quite some time now and it's not a secret that US politicians want regime change in Iran don't you think that by flying in range of Iranian air defense is kinda too close to Iran in times like these?

I do not really support aggressive moves and will always stand with defending side, no matter who it is.

So the media portraits this as an issue of proximity to Iran while it is not that at all.

Drone was in range of Iranian air defense installations in times of serious crisis. That's a fact. I can not remember who said it but seems to fit this story... '' Imagine if, in Cuban missile crisis JFK said something like 'bring them on Nikita i'll bring mine i dare you' ''. That's how i see it  

The location of the drone is pretty well known as being in international airspace.  Even the radar trace, apparently released by Iran none the less, shows that the drone was flying over international airspace the entire time.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FieldMarshalPSO/status/1141757330855550976

Iran has the S-300 with range of 150 to 200 km, the Sayyad-1 with a range of 80 to 100 km, Sayyad-2 with a range of 100 to 120 km, along with various shorter range missiles ranging from about 10 km to 60 km.  So are you suggesting we dont fly anything within 200 km of Iran cause its within their air defense range.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

6 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

So are you suggesting we dont fly anything within 200 km of Iran cause its within their air defense range.

Maybe, are you suggesting that this is proper location for military drone to fly at in time of crisis? Are you aware of geography of the region? It's not open ocean with coast but totally next door. Imagine if Iran was near Florida at this distance. [edit] and i still am not convinced that this was true location of the drone, even small mistake in calculation could result in breaches.

Edited June 20, 2019 by Sir Smoke aLot

[DarkHunter]

1 minute ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Maybe, are you suggesting that this is proper location for military drone to fly at in time of crisis? Are you aware of geography of the region? It's not open ocean with coast but totally next door. Imagine if Iran was near Florida at this distance. [edit] and i still am not convinced that this was true location of the drone, even small mistake in calculation could result in breaches.

It was in international airspace so it was a proper location for the drone, it doesnt matter if it's open ocean or coast all that matters is that Iran has effectively committed an act of war by shooting this drone down. 

Every source, even the ones from the Iranian government, have the drone being in international airspace.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

2 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

It was in international airspace so it was a proper location for the drone, it doesnt matter if it's open ocean or coast all that matters is that Iran has effectively committed an act of war by shooting this drone down. 

Every source, even the ones from the Iranian government, have the drone being in international airspace.

As if this was the place as any other, without two players and one of the players seems to want to start the game asap. Region is facing very risky period and political stunts like these are not helpful. Iran will not stand back and will defend itself, they've stated it numerous times and USA is poking them, both politically and by military means. 

This is not English channel to apply same rules to and while nations should abide by law military doesn't have place to operate there in times of crisis. It doesn't contribute to peace. Quite contrary.

[RoofGardener]

13 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

As if this was the place as any other, without two players and one of the players seems to want to start the game asap. Region is facing very risky period and political stunts like these are not helpful. Iran will not stand back and will defend itself, they've stated it numerous times and USA is poking them, both politically and by military means. 

This is not English channel to apply same rules to and while nations should abide by law military doesn't have place to operate there in times of crisis. It doesn't contribute to peace. Quite contrary.

You seem to go to any lengths to excuse this violation of international airspace ? 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

You seem to go to any lengths to excuse this violation of international airspace ? 

And you rather say that i excuse violation instead of saying that there is logic in what i say. You also support aggressive behavior by military assets in the region.

There is something which is called ''claim'' and nations make claims, for territorial waters and other things, even whole countries. Iran has claimed some regions and some are still disputed in Straits of Hormuz. Regardless of the claim, political solution by diplomacy has to be found. Airspace is directly related to territory and territorial waters of country in question.

To operate military vehicles in ''claimed territory'' is also violation of what was agreed in 1982 under UN and you should check what Iran has claims to.

There were events which included Libya and USA and also Soviet fighter jets ''near'' USA in which targets were attacked in international airspace and law was changed to cover such violations which prior to those events were not included in international law.

So this should first be debate about ''innocent passage'' and ''freedom of navigation'' and all which those include, not about end result of months of economical and political madness.

Regardless, i repeat my self again - alleged location where the drone was shot down is not supported by evidence and as long as we have different opinions, a lot of them i can not see how could we blame Iran, especially in light of recent events which smelled to false flag tries. Iran still denies reports, maybe their foreign minister is irrelevant here? 

All i see so far is video with map and a line on the map and kaboom which reminds me of comic books.

So do i really try to excuse violation of law or i am simply not convinced that this was violation?

 

 

[Merc14]

47 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Maybe, are you suggesting that this is proper location for military drone to fly at in time of crisis? Are you aware of geography of the region? It's not open ocean with coast but totally next door. Imagine if Iran was near Florida at this distance. [edit] and i still am not convinced that this was true location of the drone, even small mistake in calculation could result in breaches.

Why is international air space NOT a proper location for a military drone?

1 minute ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

And you rather say that i excuse violation instead of saying that there is logic in what i say. You also support aggressive behavior by military assets in the region.

There is something which is called ''claim'' and nations make claims, for territorial waters and other things, even whole countries. Iran has claimed some regions and some are still disputed in Straits of Hormuz. Regardless of the claim, political solution by diplomacy has to be found. Airspace is directly related to territory and territorial waters of country in question.

To operate military vehicles in ''claimed territory'' is also violation of what was agreed in 1982 under UN and you should check what Iran has claims to.

There were events which included Libya and USA and also Soviet fighter jets ''near'' USA in which targets were attacked in international airspace and law was changed to cover such violations which prior to those events were not included in international law.

So this should first be debate about ''innocent passage'' and ''freedom of navigation'' and all which those include, not about end result of months of economical and political madness.

Regardless, i repeat my self again - alleged location where the drone was shot down is not supported by evidence and as long as we have different opinions, a lot of them i can not see how could we blame Iran, especially in light of recent events which smelled to false flag tries. Iran still denies reports, maybe their foreign minister is irrelevant here? 

All i see so far is video with map and a line on the map and kaboom which reminds me of comic books.

So do i really try to excuse violation of law or i am simply not convinced that this was violation?

 

 

Are you seriously suggesting that Iran should be allowed to control one of the busiest straits on earth because they want to?

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Merc14

[Sir Smoke aLot]

1 minute ago, Merc14 said:

Why is international air space NOT a proper location for a military drone?

Because...

1. Strait of Hormuz is 39 km wide at it's narrowest point, area where incident happened.

2. see in my reply to @RoofGardener, under ''innocent passage'' which also applies to claimed territory it is stated as restriction ''(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind'' and ''Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State.''

But more on the subject, main reason i do not see violation from Iran is that location of shooting is not confirmed with Iranian top officials denying validity of reports.

 

 

[Merc14]

4 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Because...

1. Strait of Hormuz is 39 km wide at it's narrowest point, area where incident happened.

2. see in my reply to @RoofGardener, under ''innocent passage'' which also applies to claimed territory it is stated as restriction ''(b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind'' and ''Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State.''

But more on the subject, main reason i do not see violation from Iran is that location of shooting is not confirmed with Iranian top officials denying validity of reports.

 

Aircraft carriers and other navy ships pass through the strait daily so your understanding is in error.   No country would allow the likes of Iran to control the water and airspace in the strait or Hormuz and Iran unilaterally declaring the strait off limits to military aircraft and ships would be challenged immediately. 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Merc14

[Sir Smoke aLot]

9 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

Are you seriously suggesting that Iran should be allowed to control one of the busiest straits on earth because they want to?

Not because they want to but because it is on their doorstep, not that it gives them right to take it all but do you seriously expect Iran to have its exports done with and that other nations can continue shipping there under their noses, filling the pockets of their political opponents? That's insanity.

Similar incidents happened before too with Libya for example and rules were changed accordingly.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Just now, Merc14 said:

Aircraft carriers and other navy ships pass through the strait daily so you understanding is in error. 

No it's not, do you expect that in threat of war Iranian enemy can continue to exercise with drones and ships in the same way that they did when escalation was not on such high level? What would USA or any self respecting nation do? As i said you can not apply the same logic here as it would be applied elsewhere because situation is not calm at all. So far Iran respected law and did not break it, do you have evidence that they did in this case? When you provide some than we can talk about legalities.

[RoofGardener]

4 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

 So far Iran respected law and did not break it, do you have evidence that they did in this case? When you provide some than we can talk about legalities.

I'm sorry, but I can't let that go past. 

Iran has illegally shot down an unarmed drone that was operating in international airspace. 

Iran has ALSO illegally kidnapped 23 civlian sailors at sea, and are holding them prisoner. Something that the world media seems to be keeping VERY quiet about !! 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by RoofGardener

[Sir Smoke aLot]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

I'm sorry, but I can't let that go past. 

Iran has illegally shot down an unarmed drone that was operating in international airspace. 

Why don't you quote my post in full, i said that this alleged violation is denied by Iranian officials and it is not factual.

2 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Iran has ALSO illegally kidnapped 23 civlian sailors at sea, and are holding them prisoner.

You should refresh your memory about that event, there were no cries from Washington for a reason and situation was normal conduct under international law. There is always dispute but law is there to try to make agreements or to prevent war by forcing diplomacy.

[Merc14]

7 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Not because they want to but because it is on their doorstep, not that it gives them right to take it all but do you seriously expect Iran to have its exports done with and that other nations can continue shipping there under their noses, filling the pockets of their political opponents? That's insanity.

Similar incidents happened before too with Libya for example and rules were changed accordingly.

LOL, it is on a lot of doorsteps so your point is irrelevant

3 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

No it's not, do you expect that in threat of war Iranian enemy can continue to exercise with drones and ships in the same way that they did when escalation was not on such high level? What would USA or any self respecting nation do? As i said you can not apply the same logic here as it would be applied elsewhere because situation is not calm at all. So far Iran respected law and did not break it, do you have evidence that they did in this case? When you provide some than we can talk about legalities.

Iran is always threatening war which is the very reason the US and countless other seagoing nations continuously practice freedom of navigation.  I realize you passionately hate the US but Iran is definitely in the wrong here and no, they were not provoked in anyway.

[RoofGardener]

10 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Why don't you quote my post in full, i said that this alleged violation is denied by Iranian officials and it is not factual.

You should refresh your memory about that event, there were no cries from Washington for a reason and situation was normal conduct under international law. There is always dispute but law is there to try to make agreements or to prevent war by forcing diplomacy.

What the HELL are you talking about ? 

Those 23 sailors where rescued from the Front Altair  by another commercial vessel; the Hyundai Dubai. The Islamic Republican Guard swarmed that ship with speedboats, and FORCED the captain to surrender the rescued sailors IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS. This is pure PIRACY. 

Precisely WHICH point of my memory would you like me to refresh ? The bit where they kidnap the sailors from the original rescuing ship, or the bit where they are then whisked off to Iran and held incommunicado ? 

This is NOT correct behavior under international law, to say the least. What I do NOT understand is why the world media - to say nothing of the governments of those sailors - is keeping quiet about this ? 

Edited June 20, 2019 by RoofGardener