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LucidElement

Happy Nazis

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darkmoonlady
Posted (edited)

Many were just true believers, more than you'd expect. Were there people swept up and afraid to speak out, sure but overall those that participated believed Jews were subhuman and what they were doing was fine. The sources listed so far are a little thin on first person accounts from survivors who have very disturbing stories to tell about the callousness and inhuman treatment by Germans running the camps. There were small stories of Germans who resisted and helped but again they were rarer. Most in the Nazi regime truly believed and had no problem being as sadistic and cruel as possible to whomever they felt were less than, and then going home and living happy lives. If a leader gives you permission to dehumanize a group of people and you enjoy that dehumanization and benefit from it, makes you just as much of a monster as your leader. And sadly it's a lesson we keep forgetting, we see it over and over again in genocides since then. 

Edited by darkmoonlady
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Desertrat56
25 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

Many were just true believers, more than you'd expect. Were there people swept up and afraid to speak out, sure but overall those that participated believed Jews were subhuman and what they were doing was fine. The sources listed so far are a little thin on first person accounts from survivors who have very disturbing stories to tell about the callousness and inhuman treatment by Germans running the camps. There were small stories of Germans who resisted and helped but again they were rarer. Most in the Nazi regime truly believed and had no problem being as sadistic and cruel as possible to whomever they felt were less than, and then going home and living happy lives. If a leader gives you permission to dehumanize a group of people and you enjoy that dehumanization and benefit from it, makes you just as much of a monster as your leader. And sadly it's a lesson we keep forgetting, we see it over and over again in genocides since then. 

I remember on 9-11-2001 when people in Texas who did not know anything except what was on the news that morning almost killed an owner of a quicky mart type gas station because he had brown skin and was not hispanic.  He was from India but they took him out of his shop and beat him calling him names indicating they thought he was from Iran.  That was just one incident that sticks in my mind.  Some people will go over the edge and are often waiting for an excuse to vent their anger on anyone, but that was not the norm that day.  Most people were shocked and trying to find a way to help the people in New York city. 

I think that you don't give people enough credit.  There will always be those few who are like you describe, but that is never the majority.  I was only in Germany about 18 months in the 70's and I saw them as typical normal good people for the most part.  Those that lived through world war 2 were happy to encounter English and Americans.  Their children were disgruntled that their country was still being occupied.  Their grandchildren were just like any teenagers, looking for thrills and acting out their parents anger at the Nato troops still holding bases in their country.  It is something I think we can't even imagine as U.S. citizens, and maybe even British, but the Iraqis and Palestinians can identify with it, as many in Africa also.

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darkmoonlady
Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I remember on 9-11-2001 when people in Texas who did not know anything except what was on the news that morning almost killed an owner of a quicky mart type gas station because he had brown skin and was not hispanic.  He was from India but they took him out of his shop and beat him calling him names indicating they thought he was from Iran.  That was just one incident that sticks in my mind.  Some people will go over the edge and are often waiting for an excuse to vent their anger on anyone, but that was not the norm that day.  Most people were shocked and trying to find a way to help the people in New York city. 

I think that you don't give people enough credit.  There will always be those few who are like you describe, but that is never the majority.  I was only in Germany about 18 months in the 70's and I saw them as typical normal good people for the most part.  Those that lived through world war 2 were happy to encounter English and Americans.  Their children were disgruntled that their country was still being occupied.  Their grandchildren were just like any teenagers, looking for thrills and acting out their parents anger at the Nato troops still holding bases in their country.  It is something I think we can't even imagine as U.S. citizens, and maybe even British, but the Iraqis and Palestinians can identify with it, as many in Africa also.

I give people credit sure, I don't think we're all evil, but given the sum of history our need to kill, torture, and commit genocide is fairly consistent. Germany has not forgotten it's psychic wounds it's inflicted both on the world and themselves. We live in a time where people want to deny one genocide happening while others happen right now.

I took a class once and we were reading simultaneously a book on the Holocaust and a book about the atrocities of slavery and a girl in the class had a whiney fit as to why she was being subjected to all this "depressing stuff" when it all happened so long ago and didn't matter anymore. Our professor was both nauseated and disappointed until I raised my hand and said because it's still happening. I named off current genocides and slavery happening right then and it absolutely hit this girl like a good face slap (which we all in the class wished we could give her). I'm all for believing in people doing the right thing but I'm also pretty clear on our past behavior not reflecting that. 

Edited by darkmoonlady
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Desertrat56
8 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

I give people credit sure, I don't think we're all evil, but given the sum of history our need to kill, torture, and commit genocide is fairly consistent. Germany has not forgotten it's psychic wounds it's inflicted both on the world and themselves. We live in a time where people want to deny one genocide happening while others happen right now.

I took a class once and we were reading simultaneously a book on the Holocaust and a book about the atrocities of slavery and a girl in the class had a whiney fit as to why she was being subjected to all this "depressing stuff" when it all happened so long ago and didn't matter anymore. Our professor was both nauseated and disappointed until I raised my hand and said because it's still happening. I named off current genocides and slavery happening right then and it absolutely hit this girl like a good face slap (which we all in the class wished we could give her). I'm all for believing in people doing the right thing but I'm also pretty clear on our past behavior not reflecting that. 

Yes, and I said earlier, we have to remember it all, not just the atrocities or just the kindness but all of it.  And you make a good point that it is still happening.

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RabidMongoose
29 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

Many were just true believers, more than you'd expect. Were there people swept up and afraid to speak out, sure but overall those that participated believed Jews were subhuman and what they were doing was fine. The sources listed so far are a little thin on first person accounts from survivors who have very disturbing stories to tell about the callousness and inhuman treatment by Germans running the camps. There were small stories of Germans who resisted and helped but again they were rarer. Most in the Nazi regime truly believed and had no problem being as sadistic and cruel as possible to whomever they felt were less than, and then going home and living happy lives. If a leader gives you permission to dehumanize a group of people and you enjoy that dehumanization and benefit from it, makes you just as much of a monster as your leader. And sadly it's a lesson we keep forgetting, we see it over and over again in genocides since then. 

Hitler is portrayed as a madman who forced Germany to follow him using propaganda and by being a ruthless tyrant. In reality, the German people decided to follow him because they wanted too. Thats something most people dont get, how could a country choose to follow a man like that?

Following their defeat in WW1 the German people were totally up for WW2 in a big way. A huge wave of nationalism spread throughout their country and swept along almost their entire population. Not everyone got to vote for Hitler because the Nazi Party was still quite small when they came to power but the guy was genuinely popular amongst the German people.

In fact it was worse than that. I would go as far as to say he was the most popular leader in history, or at least since Roman times. If you look at when Bush or Obama or Trump got elected you didnt see most of the US population out on the streets going nuts for their new leader. There was no Julius Caesar scale celebrations. Focusing back on Germany, nationalism does funny things to people especially when they have just lost a World War and been punished harshly for their involvement in it.

They all knew what Hitler was about because he told them. He was open, and honest, and upfront. He even wrote his book to tell them. While most of his speeches are banned they include the one where he told them all his aim was to go down in history as the next Alexander the Great. He also told them they were special, capable of great things, and he was going to establish their country as the greatest nation on Earth for the next 1000 years. With the fervent nationalist sentiment being present, the German people couldn't get enough of him.

And yes, it was obvious with the way things were going long before WW2 even started that the Jews were going to get it. While those who could got out in the 1930s, most were left to meet their fate inside Germany.

Once Germany was defeated a 2nd time the German people hid what had happened. Suddenly, none of the Germans knew anyone who was a Nazi. No one knew that Hitler was going to go empire building. No one voted for him. No one liked him or agreed with him. No one knew the Jews were being exterminated. They were all totally innocent of any wrong-doing and oblivious about what had been going on.

That was unless evidence was presented pinning someone down. Then it was a case of Hitler made me do it using propaganda or being a ruthless tyrant. In case you haven`t realised its BS. A country doesnt wipe out 6 million people without everyone knowing whats going on. Think about the number of Germans that must have been involved and ask yourself just how hard it would be to keep that many people, and their families, quiet?

At least they are ashamed enough to hide what they were a part off. And that shame has been passed onto newer generations who are disgusted with the history of their country. They were very, very, naughty in the 1930s and 1940s.

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South Alabam

What happened at the Jasenovic concentration camp shocked even the Nazis.

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Jodie.Lynne
7 hours ago, The Wistman said:

The situation was desperate; Hitler offered them economic hope and delivered it to them,

He also gave them a target for their desperation. When people have their back to a wall, and you give them a target, a "cause" for their distress, they will respond.

It's very easy for a leader to point a finger at a group and say "THEY are the reason for your pain!"

On September 12th, 2001, I was on a NYC subway travelling to Ground Zero to help with recovery. When I boarded the train, I saw a Hindu gentleman seated, and a dozen men, standing at a distance. giving him the "Death Glare". They didn't know he was a Hindu, all they saw was a brown skinned man in a turban.

I could see that the man was afraid. Afraid that he would be the victim of the mob. Even though there was plenty of room in the train, I sat right beside him, asked him how he was doing, and acted like a human being towards another human being. We sat together until he exited at 14th street.

But the dozen or so men, black, white, Hispanic, all they saw was an enemy. It is so, so very easy to trigger the xenophobia in people. 

 

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Farmer77
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, LucidElement said:

it’s baffling to figure out what went on in their heads. 

They believed their nation and culture were at risk and the carnage inflicted on their nation was due to a particular demographic.  While they might not have loved it they did the best they could under the circumstances they were given.

Its scary as hell how that can happen to normal people.

 

Edited by Farmer77

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and then
16 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

War criminals all had families, first they kill a kid in prison camp then, in their homes on dinner table kiss their own child. They also like to preach about morality. Every evil has man behind it. Or woman :D

There are many stories from Jews who HATE Christians to this day because of stories handed down from camp survivors who saw their guards attend church on Sundays.  Completely understandable.

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Manwon Lender
21 hours ago, LucidElement said:

Does anyone else think that when your in an environment like that, these guards and workers do as much as they can to take their mind off what’s at hand ? Or do you think they are all literally psychotic? It interests me that the faces Some of them are expressing aren’t that of sadness or confusion, they seem to be all ah[[y and brainwashed.... but there has to be more then not that understand what they are doing is wrong ....  of course, if you don’t do what your told your “Fired” .. it’s baffling to figure out what went on in their heads. 

Its not as baffling as it may appear, these people knew with little doubt that their actions were wrong and they did what they did anyway. When the war ended, very few admitted their guilt instead they continued to make the assertion that they were just following orders. After the Nuremberg trials following orders was no longer an excuse for committing crimes while under orders. The truth be told in my opinion you could break these people down into two groups. Those who were afraid not to follow orders, and those who enjoyed the power they had over other people. 

Those who enjoyed the power over others were responsible for many of the atrocities that occurred. The reason is simple they stopped viewing the prisoners as human beings. Once this happened there was nothing that they would not do personally or allow others to do. However, in 1945 those same people came to a very rude awakening, what they had done was going to be uncovered. At this point they did everything possible to cover up what happened in the camps, but things had been done on such a large scale that it was impossible. So they ran away to hide, escaped from Germany, some were captured, and some were killed by the prisoners they had tormented and tortured. But, one thing they had in common was they were just following orders, I mean according to them they had no choice.

It was once said when they burn books next they will burn people, and never forget history or it will repeat itself. 

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Manwon Lender
3 minutes ago, and then said:

There are many stories from Jews who HATE Christians to this day because of stories handed down from camp survivors who saw their guards attend church on Sundays.  Completely understandable.

I am not so sure that they hated all Christians, I suspect that the hatred was mostly directed at their captors which is only fair.

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third_eye

more than a few Nazi s went on to win the Space race and perfected weapons of mass destruction after the war and lived famously cushy lives.... 

~

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Manwon Lender
7 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Hitler is portrayed as a madman who forced Germany to follow him using propaganda and by being a ruthless tyrant. In reality, the German people decided to follow him because they wanted too. Thats something most people dont get, how could a country choose to follow a man like that?

Following their defeat in WW1 the German people were totally up for WW2 in a big way. A huge wave of nationalism spread throughout their country and swept along almost their entire population. Not everyone got to vote for Hitler because the Nazi Party was still quite small when they came to power but the guy was genuinely popular amongst the German people.

In fact it was worse than that. I would go as far as to say he was the most popular leader in history, or at least since Roman times. If you look at when Bush or Obama or Trump got elected you didnt see most of the US population out on the streets going nuts for their new leader. There was no Julius Caesar scale celebrations. Focusing back on Germany, nationalism does funny things to people especially when they have just lost a World War and been punished harshly for their involvement in it.

They all knew what Hitler was about because he told them. He was open, and honest, and upfront. He even wrote his book to tell them. While most of his speeches are banned they include the one where he told them all his aim was to go down in history as the next Alexander the Great. He also told them they were special, capable of great things, and he was going to establish their country as the greatest nation on Earth for the next 1000 years. With the fervent nationalist sentiment being present, the German people couldn't get enough of him.

And yes, it was obvious with the way things were going long before WW2 even started that the Jews were going to get it. While those who could got out in the 1930s, most were left to meet their fate inside Germany.

Once Germany was defeated a 2nd time the German people hid what had happened. Suddenly, none of the Germans knew anyone who was a Nazi. No one knew that Hitler was going to go empire building. No one voted for him. No one liked him or agreed with him. No one knew the Jews were being exterminated. They were all totally innocent of any wrong-doing and oblivious about what had been going on.

That was unless evidence was presented pinning someone down. Then it was a case of Hitler made me do it using propaganda or being a ruthless tyrant. In case you haven`t realised its BS. A country doesnt wipe out 6 million people without everyone knowing whats going on. Think about the number of Germans that must have been involved and ask yourself just how hard it would be to keep that many people, and their families, quiet?

At least they are ashamed enough to hide what they were a part off. And that shame has been passed onto newer generations who are disgusted with the history of their country. They were very, very, naughty in the 1930s and 1940s.

I think the time for shame in Germany is coming to its end. In 2017 Hitler's manifesto Mein Kampt was reprinted in Germany, it became an instant Best Seller and it sold 85,000 copies. Just maybe the German young are starting to forget their history, and that can only lead in one direction.

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Habitat

Hitler turned out to be a useful fellow, everyone can reckon themselves morally superior to him,  he can be thought of as an unfortunate "freak", and not at all like us. In reality what he was, was a master persuader, who could tap into the underlying feelings of the population with great skill. But his radical policies are typical of what happens when societies break down, and the voices of moderation no longer are heard, because they are seen as having failed to deliver the solution to dire social circumstances.

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Manwon Lender
3 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Hitler turned out to be a useful fellow, everyone can reckon themselves morally superior to him,  he can be thought of as an unfortunate "freak", and not at all like us. In reality what he was, was a master persuader, who could tap into the underlying feelings of the population with great skill. But his radical policies are typical of what happens when societies break down, and the voices of moderation no longer are heard, because they are seen as having failed to deliver the solution to dire social circumstances.

Hitler was the perfect personification of the Anti-Christ, down to marking human flesh with numbers. If that is what the end times will be similar to I hope I and not around to see it. 

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toast
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I think the time for shame in Germany is coming to its end.

It dont and it never will be.

Quote

In 2017 Hitler's manifesto Mein Kampt was reprinted in Germany, it became an instant Best Seller and it sold 85,000 copies.

You are right about the 85k copies but you missed the most important point about the reprint you are talking about. The reprint, published in 2016, is not the original version of Mein Kampf but a version that contains >3k scientific comments, which were added into the book by the Institute of Contemporary History/Munich. Thus, the reprint isnt an instrument of propaganda but its an instrument of clarification of the lunatic ideas of a lunatic mind.

Quote

Just maybe the German young are starting to forget their history, and that can only lead in one direction.

You can put your paranoid pessimism into the bin. And pls do yourself the favor to investigate first, and in fact correct, about Germany`s todays handling about our rotten past in the 20s/30s/40s.

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Farmer77
20 minutes ago, toast said:

You are right about the 85k copies but you missed the most important point about the reprint you are talking about. The reprint, published in 2016, is not the original version of Mein Kampf but a version that contains >3k scientific comments, which were added into the book by the Institute of Contemporary History/Munich. Thus, the reprint isnt an instrument of propaganda but its an instrument of clarification of the lunatic ideas of a lunatic mind.

I did not know that thanks!

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, toast said:

It dont and it never will be.

You are right about the 85k copies but you missed the most important point about the reprint you are talking about. The reprint, published in 2016, is not the original version of Mein Kampf but a version that contains >3k scientific comments, which were added into the book by the Institute of Contemporary History/Munich. Thus, the reprint isnt an instrument of propaganda but its an instrument of clarification of the lunatic ideas of a lunatic mind.

You can put your paranoid pessimism into the bin. And pls do yourself the favor to investigate first, and in fact correct, about Germany`s todays handling about our rotten past in the 20s/30s/40s.

I am not paranoid or pessimistic, just made a simple mistake. Sorry I struck such a nerve, I apologize for my lack of research.

I am also German, 2nd generation, my mother and father immigrated in the late 1950's, I was born in the USA 1959.

Again I am sorry.

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Coil
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Hitler was the perfect personification of the Anti-Christ, down to marking human flesh with numbers. If that is what the end times will be similar to I hope I and not around to see it. 

Hitler was considered by the Devil for the candidacy of the Antichrist but after losing to Stalin, he fizzled out so that Stalin was prepared for this role.

Stalin had a superpower to consciously immerse his consciousness in the demonic worlds for communication and infusion of power from the great demons-rulers and the powerful Titan simply came to Hitler and demanded the execution of orders.

June 14, 1934 Mussolini takes on Hitler in Venice. At the end of the visit, the Duce said about his guest:

This annoying person ... this Hitler is a fierce and cruel creature. He makes Attila recall. He is more ruthless than even Attila, and without the slightest hesitation killed his comrades who helped him in seizing power.

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Manwon Lender
29 minutes ago, Coil said:

Hitler was considered by the Devil for the candidacy of the Antichrist but after losing to Stalin, he fizzled out so that Stalin was prepared for this role.

Stalin had a superpower to consciously immerse his consciousness in the demonic worlds for communication and infusion of power from the great demons-rulers and the powerful Titan simply came to Hitler and demanded the execution of orders.

June 14, 1934 Mussolini takes on Hitler in Venice. At the end of the visit, the Duce said about his guest:

This annoying person ... this Hitler is a fierce and cruel creature. He makes Attila recall. He is more ruthless than even Attila, and without the slightest hesitation killed his comrades who helped him in seizing power.

You really put some thought into this, all I can say is wow.:huh:

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Habitat

Mussolini's musings on Hitler are interesting, though.

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Coil
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

You really put some thought into this, all I can say is wow.:huh:

Read the verse about Hitler written by a spiritual person who saw who ruled Hitler and what was his nature even then:

https://www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/05/0073_e.htm

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Habitat

"Perhaps to meet11 upon his storm-swept road

A greater devil"

 

Seems to presage Hitler's downfall at the hands of Uncle Joe's Red Army

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RabidMongoose
12 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

He also gave them a target for their desperation. When people have their back to a wall, and you give them a target, a "cause" for their distress, they will respond.

It's very easy for a leader to point a finger at a group and say "THEY are the reason for your pain!"

On September 12th, 2001, I was on a NYC subway travelling to Ground Zero to help with recovery. When I boarded the train, I saw a Hindu gentleman seated, and a dozen men, standing at a distance. giving him the "Death Glare". They didn't know he was a Hindu, all they saw was a brown skinned man in a turban.

I could see that the man was afraid. Afraid that he would be the victim of the mob. Even though there was plenty of room in the train, I sat right beside him, asked him how he was doing, and acted like a human being towards another human being. We sat together until he exited at 14th street.

But the dozen or so men, black, white, Hispanic, all they saw was an enemy. It is so, so very easy to trigger the xenophobia in people. 

 

While its not the way we remember WW2.

Over the last 2000 years of European History the Jews have got it several times. Even here in England King John did it - men, women, and children. And the reason behind a lot of it was to take their gold to fund wars. Could that be the real reason behind the Holocaust?

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