Mr Walker Posted July 17, 2019 #126 Share Posted July 17, 2019 36 minutes ago, Habitat said: I can't imagine anything having a purpose unless used by an organism. Thats ok. Perhaps that it is the way most people use the word Certainly, all words are just labels for things and concepts devised by humans. This means a lot of disagreement over the meaning of words. Inanimate things serve a purpose even where no animate things exist, but the purpose becomes more defined as it applies more specifically, and humans have a tendency to think about all things from a humano -centric purpose Ie plants were not actually put on earth to feed humans (humans evolved to be able to eat plants) but that is currently one of their purposes, as they also serve the purpose of providing nutrition for many animals Rocks provide material which is weathered into soil which then has the purpose of providing a medium for growth, and providing minerals and structure required by many plant types The magnetic field around the earth serves the purpose of protecting us from solar winds and thus allowing oceans and atmosphere to, evolve which then serve the purpose of providing the potential requirements for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 17, 2019 #127 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 16/07/2019 at 10:17 AM, Hammerclaw said: E-e-e-w! Double Ouchie! Sherapy doesn't seem to grasp basic biology and genetics The abilty to get ones genes transmitted to the next generation IS about the survival, not of an individual, but of a species. Thus adaptations (caused by a variety of factors) which promote fitness for survival tend to promote the survival of that species AND the genes it carries The abilty to think in certain ways is such an adaption, and just as much so as the evolution of opposable thumbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted July 17, 2019 #128 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mr Walker said: I would disagree but i understand the confusion Nature works in an ordered and purposeful way Everything is as it is because it works and each part has a purpose Eg gravity serves a very specific purpose Soil water etc all have intrinsic purpose. Some atheists have taken some creationists definition of purpose to mean intentful and intelligent purpose. but purpose is a word which also goes to function or connection or integration of a part within a system eg What purpose do a bee's wings serve? The y enable it to fly This occurs purely naturally. The bee wasn't designed to fly. Evolution brought it to what it is today, yet its wings (and proboscis) have, and serve, a specific purpose. At the very least, it is appropriate to use the lexicon that showcases that you have a basic grasp of the subject. Using the word “purpose” only spotlights that the error is with you understanding, not anyone else’s. “Nature works in a perfectly ordered and purposeful way, everything is s it is and each part has purpose” ( MW). This is a creationist argument you are positing an intrinsic designer. You, have an agenda which is to undermine scientific findings with Creationism babble. Shame, shame, shame on you. With that being said, of course there are some nifty adaptions in organisms, but there are also some not so dandy ones too, such as, the person with genetic heart issues, or those that can’t get their genes into the next generation due to infertility, or the plants that can’t survive a drought, or the little bunny that can’t run fast enough to keep out of a predators mouth. Edited July 17, 2019 by Sherapy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 17, 2019 #129 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sherapy said: At the very least, it is appropriate to use the lexicon that showcases that you have a basic grasp of the subject. Using the word “purpose” only spotlights that the error is with you understanding, not anyone else’s. “Nature works in a perfectly ordered and purposeful way, everything is s it is and each part has purpose” ( MW). This is a creationist argument you are positing an intrinsic designer. You, have an agenda which is to undermine scientific findings with Creationism babble. Shame, shame, shame on you. With that being said, of course there are some nifty adaptions in organisms, but there are also some not so dandy ones too, such as, the person with genetic heart issues, or those that can’t get their genes into the next generation due to infertility, or the plants that can’t survive a drought, or the little bunny that can’t run fast enough to keep out of a predators mouth. Wrong the idea tha t purpose only occurs with intelligent design or intent is a furphy, put about by atheists who get annoyed (and rightly so at creationists or intelligent designers who see gods purpose in everything in nature) Every thing which exists has an innate purpose or function, or it would not exist. Humans identify and catalogue such purposes but the y came about through evolution or other natural forces You are a foolish and somewhat ignorant person who does not listen to, or believe what i say. Arguing with fools is useless, especially when their arguments are always ad hominem and never address questions of fact eg I note NO attempt to provide any factual error you believe i have made LOL if you are not foolish then how can you persist in telling me I am a creationist when i have explained for almost 14 years to you that I am an evolutionist with no belief in intelligent design or creationism Again, you have chosen a belief position on my character ( ie tha t i am a creationist) and argue as if you were right in that belief position when you are totally wrong if i was a creationist or intelligent design proponent i would happily admit to it I think i have said before that i was one of four teachers who began a lengthy effort which successfully removed creationism from the syllabus of state schools in the 1980s after some had reintroduced it to provide an "alternative to evolution" IMO there IS no academic alternative to evolution and no excuse to teach cretionism as one. At the time we had a principal who, along with his wife, was a fundamentalist creationist christian and he insisted on inserting creationism or intelligent design as an alternative theory, into our school's history syllabus. At the time this was not common, but not prohibited, so four of us took action to have the state syllabus changed, so that it was prohibited to include creationism/intelligent design in the syllabus of ANY state school, outside of religious studies. Just goes to show how wrong it is possible for you to be, about me “Nature works in a perfectly ordered and purposeful way, everything is s it is and each part has purpose” is an absolutely true statement and yet has nothing to do with god or intelligent design. It is nature and evolution which operates in this way and so, while there could be other ultimate outcomes , at present everything which is, is the result of such a process, and so everything fits together with purpose and function were things different we could be nitrogen breathers, and maybe silicon based rather than carbon based life forms Chlorophyll could be red rather than green, and rainbows might have only 3 colours Edited July 17, 2019 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted July 17, 2019 #130 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Mr Walker said: “Nature works in a perfectly ordered and purposeful way, everything is s it is and each part has purpose” is an absolutely true statement and yet has nothing to do with god or intelligent design. It is nature and evolution which operates in this way and so, while there could be other ultimate outcomes , at present everything which is, is the result of such a process, and so everything fits together with purpose and function Then for what purpose were rocks created? To be used as paperweights, to provide pretty mountains for us to look at, or for kids to use in slingshots? This is a typical usage of the word 'purpose' and to me illustrates why that word shouldn't be glommed together by you with mere descriptions of how things function and what purposes we use them for. "Gravity has the purpose of pulling matter together" is the same as the description of gravity, unlike 'scissors' whose description is different than the purpose for which it was created; with scissors we can distinguish between purpose (cutting things) and definition (two blades attached to each other at a hinge point, etc). I find your usage to be deficient semantically and logically since you are introducing ambiguity to the word and making it less useful; we now have to differentiate real purposes which have actual intentions behind them from your apparently made-up category 'chaotic purposes', a term which has the increasingly rare distinction of returning zero search results on google. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted July 17, 2019 #131 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Evolution was intelligently designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted July 17, 2019 #132 Share Posted July 17, 2019 53 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: Then for what purpose were rocks created? Their purpose, or at least their destiny, is to erode down to soil in which plants can grow. As essential to the ecosystem as water I would say. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted July 17, 2019 #133 Share Posted July 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said: Evolution was intelligently designed. At the very least it is extremely intricate and there are parts of it that it's hard to believe are accidental (to me). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted July 17, 2019 #134 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) These are my first postings in this thread so to address the OP I think we do have a choice of what to believe. I personally believe in God. I also personally believe we are living in a matrix like simulation. Those beliefs seem like choices to me. Edited July 17, 2019 by OverSword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted July 17, 2019 #135 Share Posted July 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, OverSword said: At the very least it is extremely intricate and there are parts of it that it's hard to believe are accidental (to me). I was being factious. if God created the Universe, he created a perfectly natural one, not one that functions by slight-of-hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted July 17, 2019 #136 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: Then for what purpose were rocks created? To be used as paperweights, to provide pretty mountains for us to look at, or for kids to use in slingshots? This is a typical usage of the word 'purpose' and to me illustrates why that word shouldn't be glommed together by you with mere descriptions of how things function and what purposes we use them for. "Gravity has the purpose of pulling matter together" is the same as the description of gravity, unlike 'scissors' whose description is different than the purpose for which it was created; with scissors we can distinguish between purpose (cutting things) and definition (two blades attached to each other at a hinge point, etc). I find your usage to be deficient semantically and logically since you are introducing ambiguity to the word and making it less useful; we now have to differentiate real purposes which have actual intentions behind them from your apparently made-up category 'chaotic purposes', a term which has the increasingly rare distinction of returning zero search results on google. LOL! Maybe I should have read the whole thing. I agree. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted July 17, 2019 #137 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 hour ago, OverSword said: Their purpose, or at least their destiny, is to erode down to soil in which plants can grow. As essential to the ecosystem as water I would say. Why isn't the purpose of rocks instead to be used in shelter construction for various animals? Or for use as weapons by gorillas and elephants who will throw them, or by other monkeys to crack open nuts? Earth rocks' destiny is to actually be vaporized when the sun goes red giant. How was one of the many uses of rocks chosen over others as 'their purpose'? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Liquid Gardens Posted July 17, 2019 #138 Share Posted July 17, 2019 19 minutes ago, OverSword said: LOL! Maybe I should have read the whole thing. I agree. Ha, the real purpose as you well know is to be a rock and not to roll. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted July 17, 2019 #139 Share Posted July 17, 2019 49 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said: Why isn't the purpose of rocks instead to be used in shelter construction for various animals? Or for use as weapons by gorillas and elephants who will throw them, or by other monkeys to crack open nuts? Earth rocks' destiny is to actually be vaporized when the sun goes red giant. How was one of the many uses of rocks chosen over others as 'their purpose'? I can appreciate extreme POV's. Nothing like overkill to prove a point I always say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 17, 2019 #140 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said: I was being factious. if God created the Universe, he created a perfectly natural one, not one that functions by slight-of-hand. If god created a nature universe, then we are natural and as we should be. Thus no sin. Sin being a purely human concept, same for our concept of god, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Due Posted July 17, 2019 #141 Share Posted July 17, 2019 27 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Sin being a purely human concept, When a person knowingly does the wrong thing deliberately, what it means is a lot more than a mere concept. Same thing with doing what's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danydandan Posted July 17, 2019 #142 Share Posted July 17, 2019 5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said: Evolution was intelligently designed. That idea would melt a creationist brains right out of their heads. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Desertrat56 Posted July 17, 2019 #143 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, danydandan said: That idea would melt a creationist brains right out of their heads. Why, do creationist not think god is intelligent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted July 17, 2019 #144 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 hour ago, XenoFish said: If god created a nature universe, then we are natural and as we should be. Thus no sin. Sin being a purely human concept, same for our concept of god, etc. Oh, according to the Jewish mythos, God tampered with man's evolution and added to him something referred to as the breath of life. Then he created woman twice, as the first one dumped Adam, according to the story of Lillith. Man appears to be a special exception-- if you take Jewish fairytale at face value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted July 17, 2019 #145 Share Posted July 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, danydandan said: That idea would melt a creationist brains right out of their heads. And the other side climbing the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danydandan Posted July 17, 2019 #146 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said: Why, do creationist not think god is intelligent? No, they'd have think evolution is a thing but God intended it to be random and brutal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danydandan Posted July 17, 2019 #147 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said: And the other side climbing the wall. With no ropes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted July 17, 2019 #148 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Just now, danydandan said: With no ropes. Perilously close to an accidental leap of faith 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 17, 2019 #149 Share Posted July 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said: Oh, according to the Jewish mythos, God tampered with man's evolution and added to him something referred to as the breath of life. Then he created woman twice, as the first one dumped Adam, according to the story of Lillith. Man appears to be a special exception-- if you take Jewish fairytale at face value. Yeah, the "perfect" god didn't get it right the first time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted July 17, 2019 #150 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Perfection is a human concept and the Creator can do as he damn well pleases. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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