+joc Posted July 17, 2019 #76 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 7/13/2019 at 7:05 PM, openozy said: That doesn't explain patients that have died and were above their body seeing objects unable to be viewed from the ground and describing the operating procedure when you would call unconscious but are dead to the surgeons,but in a way you are right,their spirits were still close by and had not crossed over so not dead,dead. It's all hearsay and so...it doesn't really matter. In reality...you weren't there...you don't know these people...any of them...you are believing hearsay from people you don't even know. That is the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openozy Posted July 17, 2019 #77 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 minute ago, joc said: It's all hearsay and so...it doesn't really matter. In reality...you weren't there...you don't know these people...any of them...you are believing hearsay from people you don't even know. That is the truth. I have an uncle that experienced this himself,so that comment is an uneducated remark on your part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted July 17, 2019 #78 Share Posted July 17, 2019 33 minutes ago, openozy said: I have an uncle that experienced this himself,so that comment is an uneducated remark on your part. It is only uneducated in that I am not at all educated with regards to your immediate family. But in short...you don't know any of those people in all the reports you were talking about...and in reality...you don't have any substantiated evidence other than what your uncle said..which is hearsay. So, my remark stands on it's own merits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 17, 2019 #79 Share Posted July 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, joc said: It is only uneducated in that I am not at all educated with regards to your immediate family. But in short...you don't know any of those people in all the reports you were talking about...and in reality...you don't have any substantiated evidence other than what your uncle said..which is hearsay. So, my remark stands on it's own merits. What would be a plausible motive to lie about such a thing ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted July 17, 2019 #80 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Just now, Habitat said: What would be a plausible motive to lie about such a thing ? Who accused anyone of lying about anything? I said...it is hearsay...and therefore unverifiable and cannot be considered within the realm of The Truth. People experience all kinds of things all the time and all kinds of memories are generated some of which are not at all accurate. But because there is no...Alternative Reality...there is only Reality. And in Reality...everything works the same way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 17, 2019 #81 Share Posted July 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, joc said: But because there is no...Alternative Reality...there is only Reality. And in Reality...everything works the same way. That's an assumption joc. For all we know, the game may be entirely different, "elsewhere". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted July 17, 2019 #82 Share Posted July 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Habitat said: That's an assumption joc. For all we know, the game may be entirely different, "elsewhere". No Habitat...that is not an assumption...I am not assuming that there is no Alternative Reality. That is called The Truth. You are making an assumption that there is. You obviously don't know how the Universe works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openozy Posted July 17, 2019 #83 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 hours ago, joc said: .there is only Reality. And in Reality...everything works the same way. Your reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted July 17, 2019 #84 Share Posted July 17, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, openozy said: Your reality. The definition of reality is: that which is real. There is not 'my' reality...'your' reality...those are only perceptions and we all have different perceptions. But when you strip away human perception...the reality of the universe is what it is. The definition of belief is those perceptions of reality that we all have. The First Axiom of Dan Belief is irrelevant with regards to Truth. Truth just is. Truth is not incumbent upon belief in order to be. It just is. There is no consciousness outside of a living form. It cannot exist without a life force. The life force is not the consciousness. The life force is connected to the actual blood in our bodies not the brain and it is not and never has been and never will be immortal. Now, if that actually is the truth, which by all logical standards of thought process it would seem to be, then the mysteries of NDE that you and others are trying to understand must be looked at in a different light. If there is no consciousness after death, then something else is causing the phenomena of NDE. Near death and Death are not the same thing. So, your perceptions of death and nde are a 'belief'. The reality..the actual truth of all of that is something else. What that actual truth is can only be known through logical and persistent thought process that is based in the known reality of the universe...not through fantasical wishes, wants, desires or feelings. Edited July 17, 2019 by joc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openozy Posted July 17, 2019 #85 Share Posted July 17, 2019 59 minutes ago, joc said: Near death and Death are not the same thing. Well if these people were not dead their spirit was out of their body or they couldn't describe the things they saw.You can go on about blood and other theories you may have but you seem to avoid the fact these people were out of their bodies at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted July 19, 2019 #86 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) On 7/17/2019 at 6:47 AM, openozy said: Well if these people were not dead their spirit was out of their body or they couldn't describe the things they saw.You can go on about blood and other theories you may have but you seem to avoid the fact these people were out of their bodies at the time. In the first place...there is no such fact that they were out of their bodies. That is a theory. And not a very plausible one. In the second place...the life being in the blood is not a theory...it is a fact. The story I told was published in a medical journal...that's where I read it. That actually has happened. A body at 55 degrees... with no blood in it is...dead. No brain waves...no breathing...nothing...the heart isn't beating. That is a factual occurrence not theory. Because that is a fact...the only thing alive at the time was the actual blood of the man. Which is why I say the life is in the blood...because it is...literally. Again, you are relying on hearsay from people you don't know. You read something and believe it. There is no science behind that Openozy. Zero. You are welcome of course to believe anything you want...but facts are facts and fantasy just isn't. Edited July 19, 2019 by joc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 19, 2019 #87 Share Posted July 19, 2019 On 03/07/2019 at 11:49 AM, freetoroam said: I do not want or need to believe in anything. Am quite happy with the life i have been given and am quite happy knowing that one day I will die like all the other billions and billions of life before me have. Its a fact we will all die and quite frankly this idea of heaven or afterlife does not appeal to me at all. I really do not like the idea of going to some place where everyone who has died over the years are at, apart from being extremely over crowded, I really do not wish to see hoards of people I never knew when I was alive or did not like. As the time line of humans keeps going, how do the heaven believers explain the available space for the next lot of arrivals? One response I have read is that there are many inhabited planets and species all under the governance of heaven Humans have been interdicted since our fall, and isolated to protect both us and other races. After the new earth is restored as a paradise for future humanity, humans can and will be able to travel across many planets, learning and teaching. In christian theology we would have a special place, both as lost sheep, and an example of what goes wrong after separation from god, but also as a good news story of our restoration, as in the prodigal son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 19, 2019 #88 Share Posted July 19, 2019 On 17/07/2019 at 1:18 PM, joc said: No Habitat...that is not an assumption...I am not assuming that there is no Alternative Reality. That is called The Truth. You are making an assumption that there is. You obviously don't know how the Universe works. lol The y are both assumptions No one knows how the universe works or indeed just what constitutes the universe. We measure what we can observe, and make assumptions based on those observations. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 19, 2019 #89 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) On 17/07/2019 at 8:07 PM, joc said: The definition of reality is: that which is real. There is not 'my' reality...'your' reality...those are only perceptions and we all have different perceptions. But when you strip away human perception...the reality of the universe is what it is. The definition of belief is those perceptions of reality that we all have. The First Axiom of Dan Belief is irrelevant with regards to Truth. Truth just is. Truth is not incumbent upon belief in order to be. It just is. There is no consciousness outside of a living form. It cannot exist without a life force. The life force is not the consciousness. The life force is connected to the actual blood in our bodies not the brain and it is not and never has been and never will be immortal. Now, if that actually is the truth, which by all logical standards of thought process it would seem to be, then the mysteries of NDE that you and others are trying to understand must be looked at in a different light. If there is no consciousness after death, then something else is causing the phenomena of NDE. Near death and Death are not the same thing. So, your perceptions of death and nde are a 'belief'. The reality..the actual truth of all of that is something else. What that actual truth is can only be known through logical and persistent thought process that is based in the known reality of the universe...not through fantasical wishes, wants, desires or feelings. Good post. I tend to agree with it but it is belief not fact eg Artificial intelligence, which will reach and exceed human intelligence in the next 20 -40 years or so, has no "life". It is operated by electricity Humans could become virtually immortal in a number of ways, especially if you consider a human being to be our mind and consciousness, not our physical body. Our consciousness requires a host, but a number of alternative hosts for our mind are possible. Edited July 19, 2019 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openozy Posted July 19, 2019 #90 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, joc said: In the first place...there is no such fact that they were out of their bodies. That is a theory. And not a very plausible one. In the second place...the life being in the blood is not a theory...it is a fact. The story I told was published in a medical journal...that's where I read it. That actually has happened. A body at 55 degrees... with no blood in it is...dead. No brain waves...no breathing...nothing...the heart isn't beating. That is a factual occurrence not theory. Because that is a fact...the only thing alive at the time was the actual blood of the man. Which is why I say the life is in the blood...because it is...literally. Again, you are relying on hearsay from people you don't know. You read something and believe it. There is no science behind that Openozy. Zero. You are welcome of course to believe anything you want...but facts are facts and fantasy just isn't. One of these people was my uncle who is a very serious person so its fact in my eyes.I cant see what this blood thing has to do with people describing things they couldn't possibly see from above when dead or near dead which you are avoiding as you have no way of explaining,yet its true.Your the one believing a paper written by someone you don't know,Who wrote this,dosen't sound real or ethical to me. Edited July 19, 2019 by openozy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetoroam Posted July 19, 2019 #91 Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Mr Walker said: One response I have read is that there are many inhabited planets and species all under the governance of heaven Humans have been interdicted since our fall, and isolated to protect both us and other races. After the new earth is restored as a paradise for future humanity, humans can and will be able to travel across many planets, learning and teaching. In christian theology we would have a special place, both as lost sheep, and an example of what goes wrong after separation from god, but also as a good news story of our restoration, as in the prodigal son Sometimes I find you do post some sense, unfortunately, this ^ post is not one of them. Out of curiosity, what new Earth are you on about and how does a "new" Earth get restored? Restored into what, the old Earth? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted July 19, 2019 #92 Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 hour ago, openozy said: One of these people was my uncle who is a very serious person so its fact in my eyes.I cant see what this blood thing has to do with people describing things they couldn't possibly see from above when dead or near dead which you are avoiding as you have no way of explaining,yet its true.Your the one believing a paper written by someone you don't know,Who wrote this,dosen't sound real or ethical to me. Surgery in which a patient's blood is completely drained from their body Surgeon Gabriel Weston witnesses one of the most extraordinary surgeries carried out in the UK, at Papworth in Cambridge. Blood clots can form inside vessel deep within our lungs, causing lots of fibrous material to build up and restrict the blood flow. In the past, the only treatment would have been a full lung transplant. A clot deep within a main vessel in the lungs is almost impossible to remove, with all the blood flowing through. But at Papworth, they provide a radical solution. To get to the clot the surgical team, led by surgeon Mr David Jenkins, drain all of the patient’s blood from their body. This means stopping the heart, and pumping all the blood in the body into a vat in the operating theatre. Without the blood flowing, they are able to remove the fibrous material that is causing the problem. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think we are having a bit of a communication problem here. Facts are not 'in your eyes'. Facts have nothing..absolutely nothing...to do with what you do or do not believe. For Example...because this is a huge point... Here is a fact: Water is a molecule consisting of 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 atom of oxygen. You can believe that water has 2 atoms of oxygen in the molecule...it's ok...believe it. If you really seriously believe water has 2 atoms of oxygen per molecule...then drink a big glass of what you 'believe' water to be. I don't think you will enjoy it much since 2 atoms of oyxgen would form Hydrogen Peroxide. The link above is to illustrate that indeed the operation I read about 20+ years ago is in fact....factual. You ask what does that prove? If you read on a few more paragraphs of the article you will find that removing the blood and re-transfusing the blood into the patient occurs several times in the long operation. This is because after 20 minutes the brain...even at 20 degrees C would begin to die. So, what is happening in the brain while the patients blood is circulating in a vat? Nothing that we can measure. Technically the patient is dead. But he isn't. Because death isn't that simple of a thing. I don't know how long it takes to die. Circumstances differ in a 'death' situation. What I do know is that once a person is in fact dead...they don't come back and tell any tales. I don't know what happened with your Uncle. I don't know what happened with any of the other people who claim nde. I'm not saying that I know...I'm in fact saying that I don't know. But my intuitive gut tells me that there is more going on than meets the eye. So, let's revisit the question of what is happening in the brain while the man's blood is in a vat? His brain is non-functional...no brain activity at all. But wait...there must be some brain activity...otherwise the 20 minute limit on being without blood wouldn't be a factor. So on a chemical level...the brain is still active. That means that all of the memory is still in there...even though the body is technically dead. I think it is entirely possible that many of the senses are still active..not consciously so but on a deeper sub conscious level the brain is still reacting with it's environment. Hearing perhaps is a factor. I don't know what is going on in that body's brain. But I do know that the blood is very much alive. Circulating in the vat being oxygenated will result in the man becoming fully functional. But then, couldn't we say that the life is in the oxygen? Because if you remove the oxygen from the blood...the blood will die. So okay...the life is in the oxygen. Now we are on a completely different level of discussion of what life is and consequently what death is. If Oxygen is Life. Then what is death? It's a mystery Openozy....but just to be clear. The truth ...whatever that 'unknown' truth is...that is the actual fact...not what you believe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted July 19, 2019 #93 Share Posted July 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Mr Walker said: lol The y are both assumptions No one knows how the universe works or indeed just what constitutes the universe. We measure what we can observe, and make assumptions based on those observations. Oh crap...I went for a walk outside of the lounge and ... Mr. Walker...YOU...don't know how the universe works. WE do know. It isn't a big mystery....it just isn't. We do in fact know how the universe works... ...going back to the lounge now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 19, 2019 #94 Share Posted July 19, 2019 I can't believe this thread is still going. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted July 19, 2019 #95 Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 hour ago, joc said: It isn't a big mystery....it just isn't. We do in fact know how the universe works... ...going back to the lounge now... That seems like an Awefully big claim? Do "we" completely understand alleged dark energy and dark matter?...for example? Do "we" entirely understand the expansion of the universe? Is it cyclical? or endless? Are those in the lounge the only ones that "know" everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted July 19, 2019 #96 Share Posted July 19, 2019 On 03/07/2019 at 12:40 AM, docyabut2 said: What does you all want to believe? just having one life, a belief in heaven to stay, or a recycle life of dying in one day and being reborn into another life ? We start off life as a reactive organism allowing ourselves to be led by our emotions, our desires, and our impulses. We dont consider how our actions or behaviours impact others or the long-term effects of them. Then as a result of the parenting we receive most of us exit childhood with some self-awareness, some ability to self-reflect, and some ability to gauge what the outcome of our actions or behaviours will be. However, we are yet far from being masters of our own minds. Our experiences with other people and society will continue to mould and shape us throughout our lives. As we advance in our years then at some point we reach the realisation that we can completely manage our emotions, our desires, and our impulses. We no longer react to other people, we no longer attach ourselves to life problems, and we consider others. We have completed the journey of development which God intended for us. When we die we move on. If we struggled with any of the above we are coming back to go through the learning process again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted July 19, 2019 #97 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) On 7/2/2019 at 7:40 PM, docyabut2 said: What does you all want to believe? just having one life, a belief in heaven to stay, or a recycle life of dying in one day and being reborn into another life ? It's not a bad habit to consider all possibilities concerning one's own life. It's human capability to consider what could possibly lying ahead but can potentially affect us. It's a responsible line of thinking. Edited July 19, 2019 by Hawkins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted July 19, 2019 Author #98 Share Posted July 19, 2019 What about a astral body and a brain? The upshot is that the woman can use the apparitional extremity to relieve very real itches on the cheek. It cannot penetrate solid objects http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/doctors-confirm-woman-s-imaginary-third-arm/655352 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 20, 2019 #99 Share Posted July 20, 2019 2 hours ago, docyabut2 said: What about a astral body and a brain? The upshot is that the woman can use the apparitional extremity to relieve very real itches on the cheek. It cannot penetrate solid objects http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/doctors-confirm-woman-s-imaginary-third-arm/655352 It was solely a product of her damaged mind. It wasn't real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernumerary_phantom_limb Supernumerary phantom limb is a condition where the affected individual believes and receives sensory information from limbs of the body that do not actually exist, and never have existed, in contradistinction to phantom limbs, which appear after an individual has had a limb removed from the body and still receives input from it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted July 20, 2019 Author #100 Share Posted July 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, XenoFish said: It was solely a product of her damaged mind. It wasn't real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernumerary_phantom_limb Supernumerary phantom limb is a condition where the affected individual believes and receives sensory information from limbs of the body that do not actually exist, and never have existed, in contradistinction to phantom limbs, which appear after an individual has had a limb removed from the body and still receives input from it. but what if humans have control over their astral bodies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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