If Jesus was a god his death wasn't a sacrifi

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Usually if you get zero reward for doing something it is something you did not want to do.  Like the ministers wife letting *******s into the house at 3 in the morning to bother the minister about a silly fight they had with their spouse.  That is not only no reward but negative reward.  People do things like that and wish they hadn't so mabye the conversation should be where do you set your boundaries and how does that fit in with donating to charity or helping a stranger.

Things like that are an obligations, which often breeds resentment. 

Personally, I'm more willing to help those who are trying to help better themselves. I'm not for giving to a charity case. 

[Rlyeh]

5 hours ago, Sojo said:

Just to throw my 2 cents worth on this topic, Christ experienced physical, mental, and spiritual death.  I believe he suffered guilt, shame, and condemnation to a degree we cannot fathom. He was willing to experience this ultimate torment for both humankind and God. He further had sufficient love and faith to not only be willing to be the one to do so for us, but also attain the power of resurrection from death.

You're one of those people who get off on the idea of Jesus suffering that you need to add to it.

 

5 hours ago, Sojo said:

Christ has the power to forgive karmic debt. Those who are willing to believe this and accept his experience, and have enough faith to ask for that forgiveness, can receive it and forgo karmic retribution for their sins.  But, no one is forced to do so. If one so chooses, they may continue to learn their lessons and pay their debts from life to life.

Apparently Yahweh doesn't have that power.

 

5 hours ago, Sojo said:

As for those who have problems with the fact that there are numerous galaxies, planets, and worlds in the universe, be mindful he experienced it for us.  (And it also gives God that experience and perspective from his life/death as well.) There is likely additional understanding to be had about what it means to be (a) Christ, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Rlyeh]

I don't get why some Christians think Jesus had to suffer every imaginable horror.  I've read some claims he was raped and sexually abused by the Romans.

I get the feeling they might be projecting their own masochistic fantasies on Jesus.

[Jodie.Lynne]

3 hours ago, lightly said:

I guess I must be dim.. What would you say it is that motivates people to help someone else? ..without expectation of reward?

     Compassion?  Love? 

...even if someone does it just to make themselves feel better about themselves ..that's still a "reward"?

Compassion, love -  to an extent, empathy. Maybe the sense of well being. 

I've been in hard, dark places in my life. When I am in a position to helps others, I do so, because I know what it is like, and if I can help one person, just ONE, get out of a tight spot, then I feel as if I've done (a little) as others have done for me.

Not in a "I'm a good person, look what I did!", and patting myself on the back kind of way; not because I expect any kind of reward, or benefit. Not even to feel good about myself.  But because I know, first hand, what it is like to backed into a corner, with no escape but one. And someone, sometimes a friend or family, often times a total stranger, has been there to offer a helping hand.

Do I care what that person's motivation is? I don't give a farthing if they helped because "god told them", or if they want to strut & preen about how charitable they are, or even if they did it to get a tax break.  They did something to help a fellow human. 

As I have said on these boards, countless times, if faith or religion helps you to be a better person, then go with it.

 

I was once told a story, I have no idea if it is true, it was told to me by my father, when he was a boy in Ireland.  But it illustrates my perspective.

A husband & wife were walking along railroad tracks, when the woman's foot became stuck somehow. Try as they could, they couldn't get her foot loose. Then they heard the whistle of a train. Frantically, the husband struggled to free his wife to no avail. A passing stranger saw them and went to help. And still the woman was trapped, and now they could see the train approaching. I was told that all three died, because the train couldn't stop in time.

Both men had ample time to escape their fate, yet remained to the very end. One could understand the husband's staying, but what about the stranger? He could have walked away, safe in the knowledge that "he tried".

As I said, I have no way of knowing if this is a true story, or if my Father was giving me a moral puzzle to decipher. But it bothered me for years until I came to a resolution that made sense to me. 

[Jodie.Lynne]

9 hours ago, Sojo said:

As for those who have problems with the fact that there are numerous galaxies, planets, and worlds in the universe, be mindful he experienced it for us.  (And it also gives God that experience and perspective from his life/death as well.) There is likely additional understanding to be had about what it means to be (a) Christ, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

There is a lot to unpack from your post, but I'm going to go with this bit.

So, if there is an intelligent lifeform on Cestus 3, and it will take human missionaries one hundred thousand years to reach them and "spread the words of Jesus", what happens to those countless generations of Cestusites before they get "enlightened"?

Or, are you postulating that the Jesus mythology occurred on every planet with intelligent life?

OR, are you asserting that only humans, living on a small rock orbiting a mediocre, average star, on the bloody fringes of the galaxy, are so super special, blessed by god, the ONLY lifeforms to develop a god mythos? And that the hairless apes are the ONLY lifeform to correctly arrive at the idea of THE correct god?

Edited July 12, 2019 by Jodie.Lynne

[Jodie.Lynne]

3 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

I don't get why some Christians think Jesus had to suffer every imaginable horror.  I've read some claims he was raped and sexually abused by the Romans.

I get the feeling they might be projecting their own masochistic fantasies on Jesus.

I've never heard that, it rather sounds like some sick fanfic to me. But, I can understand why some believers would think that their savior would experience every horrendous, heinous act of abuse imaginable. They are the same people who believe that humans are some foul creation of their god, that revels in evil, and if only they would listen and obey, everything would be wonderful.

 

Many of the world's god mythologies postulate a "golden age", that was wrecked by the action of reckless humans and therefore all humanity suffers. To my mind, these are just attempts to explain why things are, based on the (lack of) knowledge of the times.

[docyabut2]

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 4:16 PM, darkmoonlady said:

If Jesus were a comic book character, knowing he was the son of God and immortal, doesn't that make him dying on the cross meaningless? He knew he couldn't really die. Whatever pain he experienced he chose to experience, as a god he is capable of healing himself and just getting off the cross. I'm a skeptical pagan so call me biased but this has bothered me. I don't believe in the Bible and don't see it as real but even as a concept it seems like a problem. His death is always framed by his believers as a sacrifice or that he died for the sins of others but him knowing he could not die or die and come back makes that not a death FOR anything. More like a trick. 

Its what Jesus tried to prove  we are all one with god , even when the veil was ripped in half in the jerutlum  temple , when he went on the cross.

https://www.gotquestions.org/temple-veil-torn.html

[docyabut2]

8 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Its what Jesus tried to prove  we are all one with god , even when the veil was ripped in half in the jerutlum  temple , when he went on the cross. Study all the records of Jesus in the Bible its only  the four witness  letters   its only a few pages of Jesus`s words,

https://www.gotquestions.org/temple-veil-torn.html

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by docyabut2

[XenoFish]

16 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Its what Jesus tried to prove  we are all one with god

This has got to be the least encouraging thing I have read on UM.

[Sojo]

6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

It's all a story book tale of a demi-god known as Jesus. That's it. Karmic debt doesn't exist. It's a good way to get people to join a cult though. Forgiveness for your sins for the low price of complete devotion to just another cult of ego. Join now or go to hell. 

Hi XenoFish, I respect your right to believe as you do. BTW, I like your tag line.

[Sojo]

5 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

You're one of those people who get off on the idea of Jesus suffering that you need to add to it.

 

Apparently Yahweh doesn't have that power.

 

What does that have to do with anything?

Hi Rlyeh,

No, I don't get off on the idea of Jesus suffering, nor do I feel a need to add to it. I simply understand Jesus' suffering as him being both God and man.  There is no knowledge that God does not have or understand. This includes the entire spectrum of pain and suffering. Is there such a thing as guilt, shame, or condemnation for sin?  I believe there is and it can be experienced to differing degrees. I think Christ experienced it to the nth degree, thus adding that experience to God's total awareness.  I also think his "sacrifice" was to help put and end to the deplorable practice of the killing of animals and the blood "sacrifices" taking place in the Judaic temple.

With regard to Yaweh, I don't think the old testament God was the same as the Father that Jesus spoke of or prayed to.  Please see here:

 

With regard to your final comment about my last point, I know it doesn't relate to the topic of this post.  I just threw it in as food for thought.

 

Best regards,

Sojo

[Sojo]

1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

There is a lot to unpack from your post, but I'm going to go with this bit.

So, if there is an intelligent lifeform on Cestus 3, and it will take human missionaries one hundred thousand years to reach them and "spread the words of Jesus", what happens to those countless generations of Cestusites before they get "enlightened"?

Or, are you postulating that the Jesus mythology occurred on every planet with intelligent life?

OR, are you asserting that only humans, living on a small rock orbiting a mediocre, average star, on the bloody fringes of the galaxy, are so super special, blessed by god, the ONLY lifeforms to develop a god mythos? And that the hairless apes are the ONLY lifeform to correctly arrive at the idea of THE correct god?

Hi Jodie.Lynne,

It is my personal belief that God and/or his Christ can manifest himself simultaneously in multiple places in the universe if he chooses to do so. I believe his Spirit is throughout the universe. All those individuals manifesting as Christ are ONE.  Just as Christ said he was ONE with the Father. I think that the ONENESS means it is indeed God acting, speaking, and manifesting himself through the multiple Christ individuals.

The Gospel is the same for everyone everywhere. I think we all have multiple lives and experiences from which to learn and grow spiritually. I think Karma is part of that learning process. Not all will hear the Gospel at the same time, but they will learn from their Karmic experiences that I think leaves an impression in their souls and helps shape their personalities from life to life. The Gospel is the good news that they can be forgiven for Karmic debt if they will only have faith enough to ask for that forgiveness. As to when, where, or why the Gospel is presented, that is according to God's own choosing and wisdom. When the Gospel is preached to anyone, it is strictly "whosoever will" of their own volition to either believe and accept it or not. If they choose not to believe and accept it, then I think they will continue living life to life in the prison of their current world until they have paid "the uttermost farthing" as they continue to learn and grow spiritually. But each person's progress is individual and not everyone is ready to accept the Gospel of forgiveness when they hear it. Some people just don't want to believe that God exists, which is what Christ called the first great commandment.  And he gave a second one stating that people should love others as themselves, and treat others the way they would want to be treated. What a wonderful world it would be if these two simple commandments were accepted and adhered to by everyone.

I hope this helps cast some light on what I was trying to say.

Sojo

 

[docyabut2]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

This has got to be the least encouraging thing I have read on UM.

https://www.biblehub.com/john/17-21.htm

 

Study Bible

Prayer for all Believers
20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—…

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by docyabut2

[Piney]

5 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

I get the feeling they might be projecting their own masochistic fantasies on Jesus.

Mel Gibson certainly did. 

[Piney]

11 hours ago, Sojo said:

Christ has the power to forgive karmic debt.

If you ever read all the Rabbinical stuff ALL prophets have the power to forgive and there were several prophets that did a lot more "magic tricks" than Jesus did.

[docyabut2]

7 minutes ago, Piney said:

If you ever read all the Rabbinical stuff ALL prophets have the power to forgive and there were several prophets that did a lot more "magic tricks" than Jesus did.

Read all about the ancients beliefs there were many many  Gods,  the Rabbinical stuff was a belief in a unseen God,but Jesus keeps saying over and over God was with in us.  

[XenoFish]

17 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

https://www.biblehub.com/john/17-21.htm

 

Study Bible

Prayer for all Believers
20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—…

 

I've always wanted to be a demanding murderous tyrant. Now I can fulfil that dream and be just like god.

[Golden Duck]

6 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

I don't get why some Christians think Jesus had to suffer every imaginable horror.  I've read some claims he was raped and sexually abused by the Romans.

I get the feeling they might be projecting their own masochistic fantasies on Jesus.

It's ironic that your own post contains keywords that are typical of projection and identity politics. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Golden Duck

[darkmoonlady]

2 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

It's ironic that your own post contains keywords that are typical of projection and identity politics. 

Huh? Passion of the Christ felt like religious snuff porn, and I didn't see anything about identity politics. We're talking about Jesus as a character in book (at least my view of him) and whether or not as a god his death had any true meaning if he knew he was a god or immortal. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by darkmoonlady

[Golden Duck]

6 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

Huh? Passion of the Christ felt like religious snuff porn, and I didn't see anything about identity politics. We're talking about Jesus as a character in book (at least my view of him) and whether or not as a god his death had any true meaning if he knew he was a god or immortal. 

The last paragraph, of that post, talks about how he has a feeling that they are projecting their fantasies.  He's projecting malicious motives onto them.

He read a claim somewhere that Jesus was sexually abused.  Hopefully, he can remember the search terms for how he found it so we can be on the same page. But, the articles I found tied Jesus' sexual abouse to #MeToo.

That bears a striking resemblance to a fairly common marketing tactic, that many corporations use, to display empathy to their customers.  It resolves a question that is a fellow traveller to the main them of this thread; ie, How can a god have empathy for a mortal?

It also dovetails neatly with a criticism by those against religious freedom.  It displays a top-line motivation.  Who desires a greater income of revenue?  The answer is, of course, all of us do.  However, that creates cognitive dissonance insofar as we might have to accept they might be like us.

So, lets disregard observations - of economic motivations - in favour of our feelings; and, project malevolent motivations onto them.

Us versus Them is the foundation of Identity Politics. 

[odas]

10 hours ago, danydandan said:

Because there are bad and good people everywhere and in every walk of life. To say that there might be a slight bit more of a percentage of 'nice' people who fall into the irreligious group I think is erroneous. 

I reckon you would find the same ratio of 'nice' : 'not-nice' in most cases. Obviously there are extremes. But you get my point I think?

I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. 

Christians, Jews, Muslims. Just to pick on them a bit. All organized members of an organized religion.

Then, we organize ourselfs into more defined Christians, Muslims and Jews:

Catholics, Evangelists, Orthodox..then Suni, Shia..then orthodox Jews, Conservative, Reformist...

And then, as religious organisations, we all claim that  our way is the right way. Out of all this organization chaos has been created and, as organized humans, we do not know how to deal with it.

I, and many like me, declare myself a Christian only, a Muslim only, a Jew only. We are not organized. Everyone for him/herself. Everyone finds his or her own way to the Higher Being. Freely. Without peer pressure, musts, don'ts.

Between God and me there is noone.

Edited July 13, 2019 by odas

[Golden Duck]

17 minutes ago, odas said:

Christians, Jews, Muslims. Just to pick on them a bit. All organized members of an organized religion.

Then, we organize ourselfs into more defined Christians, Muslims and Jews:

Catholics, Evangelists, Orthodox..then Suni, Shia..then orthodox Jews, Conservative, Reformist...

And then, as religious organisations, we all claim that  our way is the right way. Out of all this organization chaos has been created and, as organized humans, we do not know how to deal with it.

I, and many like me, declare myself a Christian only, a Muslim only, a Jew only. We are not organized. Everyone for him/herself. Everyone finds his or her own way to the Higher Being. Freely. Without peer pressure, musts, don'ts.

Between God and me there is noone.

Reminds me of the old joke:

Quote

The nun asked the class what they wanted to be when they grow up.
A little girl raised her hand:
Yes Mary, what do you want to be?
I want to be a Prostitute with I grow up!
The teacher, now red-faced and very sternly said: Mary! I will see you after class!
Class adjourned and the nun said: Mary, what did you say you wanted to be?
Mary replied: I said I want to be a prostitute when I grow up.
The nun gave a great sigh of relief and replied: "Oh, I thought you said you wanted to be a Protestant!"

 

[Rlyeh]

7 hours ago, Sojo said:

Hi Rlyeh,

No, I don't get off on the idea of Jesus suffering, nor do I feel a need to add to it. I simply understand Jesus' suffering as him being both God and man.  There is no knowledge that God does not have or understand.

It sounds like you do.  There is much God doesn't know as the OT implies.

 

7 hours ago, Sojo said:

This includes the entire spectrum of pain and suffering. Is there such a thing as guilt, shame, or condemnation for sin?

He felt guilt?  Why would anyone feel guilty for something they haven't done?

 

7 hours ago, Sojo said:

I believe there is and it can be experienced to differing degrees. I think Christ experienced it to the nth degree, thus adding that experience to God's total awareness.  I also think his "sacrifice" was to help put and end to the deplorable practice of the killing of animals and the blood "sacrifices" taking place in the Judaic temple.

Again, God can only forgive through death.

 

7 hours ago, Sojo said:

With regard to Yaweh, I don't think the old testament God was the same as the Father that Jesus spoke of or prayed to.  Please see here:

This makes even less sense.  If God isn't Yahweh, Jesus had no reason to do most the stuff he did.  Why use teachings and myths of a different deity to prove he sent you?

[Rlyeh]

6 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

It's ironic that your own post contains keywords that are typical of projection and identity politics. 

You got me, I'm projecting my own desires on a religious character who I don't believe even existed.

[Golden Duck]

4 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

You got me, I'm projecting my own desires on a religious character who I don't believe even existed.

That's not what you wrote. Projected your motives onto "them" based on your feelings.

You can't even remember your own weak eisegesis.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Golden Duck