If Jesus was a god his death wasn't a sacrifi

[jmccr8]

On 7/17/2019 at 2:45 AM, Pettytalk said:

Are you back for more mushrooms?

Hi Pettytalk

So, you are not going to respond to the points. No thanks on the mushrooms but one could liken them to some concepts as they are dependant on fertilizer and a dark place.

jmccr8

[+Pettytalk]

12 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Pettytalk

So, you are not going to respond to the points. No thanks on the mushrooms but one could liken them to some concepts as they are dependant on fertilizer and a dark place.

jmccr8

You ordered the mushrooms, don't you remember? And as much as I would love to answer you, both on the previous one, and on this one too, I'm kind of tied up, as the gods around here have mandated that I be civil. And to be honest, even if I was free to be free with my words, it's just not worth the effort, as you would not understand, as usual. And by the way, not all mushrooms feed strictly on dung, as there are mycorrhizal fungi, which work in symbiosis. Learn a lesson from the pictures.

It's better to be friends, don't you think so? As Socrates said, it's better to have a foolish friend than a cunning enemy!

You and your friends!

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

And as much as I would love to answer you, both on the previous one, and on this one too, I'm kind of tied up, as the gods around here have mandated that I be civil. And to be honest, even if I was free to be free with my words, it's just not worth the effort, as you would not understand, as usual.

Hi Pettytalk

Sorry to hear about your civil limitations about civility, didn't think my comment was posed as an attack of the literate kind. Of course, let's be honest and accept that I am able to understand as usual but may not be accepting your position as presented. It is a discussion forum and one hopes that it is a progressive discussion.

I have been a member here for 10 yrs and have had some posts removed but have never been reprimanded verbally or by suspension even though I have been involved in some very heated discussions so I would tend to think that difficulty in constructive dialogue is not a problem on my part neither would be my ability to understand.

I suspect that the lack of effort is your own doing and cause for self-evaluation.

jmccr8

[GoldenWolf]

On 7/16/2019 at 10:21 PM, DieChecker said:

Yes. But... He did tell them not to eat it, or they would surely die. Kind of like being told jumping off a skyscraper will kill you, but you do it anyway.

Why would knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong be shunned?  That doesn't make any freaking sense.

It's like "God" is trying to hide he is evil.

[+DieChecker]

10 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

Why would knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong be shunned?  That doesn't make any freaking sense.

It's like "God" is trying to hide he is evil.

The best I can imagine is that they were to live in ignorance of Good and Evil. And thus be sin free.

If a baby causes someone's death, can it do so on purpose? No. A baby is sinless in its actions.

[Mr Walker]

12 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

Why would knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong be shunned?  That doesn't make any freaking sense.

It's like "God" is trying to hide he is evil.

Or perhaps the story tried to illustrate how god was protecting very young humans from an experience with evil which would (and did in the story)  transform their lives in a  negative way (same sort of mortal as Pandora's box) . One can know right from  wrong,  without ever experiencing evil  

[GLCsector3295]

On 7/5/2019 at 3:16 PM, darkmoonlady said:

If Jesus were a comic book character, knowing he was the son of God and immortal, doesn't that make him dying on the cross meaningless? He knew he couldn't really die. Whatever pain he experienced he chose to experience, as a god he is capable of healing himself and just getting off the cross. I'm a skeptical pagan so call me biased but this has bothered me. I don't believe in the Bible and don't see it as real but even as a concept it seems like a problem. His death is always framed by his believers as a sacrifice or that he died for the sins of others but him knowing he could not die or die and come back makes that not a death FOR anything. More like a trick. 

The idea that Christians believe, is that Jesus was God and Human, that Jesus as the Son of God agreed or chose to enter into humanity as a human while still being divine and experience life as we do, and then also bring humanity to the Trinity,  which also included Himself. 

The entire concept gets bogged down in theological debates which have already been conducted through out history an in the end, the answer is very convoluted to people who have not spent decades or their entire life in theology, have been indoctrinated into the study an etc. For the rest of the us we boil it down to faith. This part you mention though is very interesting, "Whatever pain he experienced he chose to experience, as a god he is capable of healing himself and just getting off the cross."

It was stated exactly such in scripture by those who mocked Christ while he was being crucified. An you are correct, Christ  could of very well just got off the cross, snapped his fingers, and then been like, alright, everyone who did this to me, all yall who were mocking me, guess what now you are screwed. He didn't though, and he chose to go through what he went through for a reason. Put things in a different perspective, if you or I were immortal, an had the knowledge that when we die, we come back to life. But you still experience pain and suffering, even knowing you can stop it at any time. Why choose to go through the pain an suffering.

Some people consider what Jesus did was out of love, not to prove a point, or to trick anyone.  Humanity has a limited ability in relating to God, but God isn't limited in relating to humanity , in turn God it felt it necessary to go the route He did with sending his Son.  Jesus did in fact experience death even though he was / is immortal. What Jesus did though, was to show humanity that through faith in him, we can also break free from death, be resurrected and be with Jesus in Heaven.  What Jesus experience on the cross, was completely in his power to ignore, he could of easily blocked out all the pain an suffering, but he didn't.  An the whys are endless.... Why go this route to relate to humanity and save humanity. more over why does the Roman Catholic Church black ball humanity and say that even though Jesus defeated death, an sin, an was resurrected, that when we are born, through no choice of our own, we are born with " Original sin ".  An more over that even if you do your best to live a good life, your sins even if you go to confession an are absolved are still not really gone, that there is a temporal scar of sorts and now you have to go to " purgatory " to be purified before going to heaven, an purgatory from discription is no picnic.    Why can't God in all his power, just snap his fingers an instantly purify those who are supposed to go to heaven, why add on more punishment to those who have suffered enough in life and or did the best they could.  More over,  why send your son to mingle with mortals, put up with their bs, an then be elusive as to revealing who you are. to then turn around an go well in the old testament scriptures were written an Jesus had to live up to everyones expectations that were written ... An exactly why is that ?  Why not just walk onto the scene, an flat out tell people, you are the Son of God, it would still of gotten the same reaction, people would of still been in disbelief, accused of him of being insane, and a heretic, an put him to death, and people still would of believed him and followed him.  So why appease some authors who wrote down what they hoped would happen ...  The Roman Catholic Church cant logically answer all the whys, they try to through theological studies and debates, then give each other blue ribbons and say job well done. In the end it is for the individual to decide, an that is through faith if they do believe Jesus to be the Son of God and what he went through to be factual and real. An if they want to be apart of Jesus in the after life in Heaven.  Everything that happens after death is out of our hands.  IF the OP has read this I hope this makes a little bit of sense. IF not, an you want to make more sense out of it, you are better off doing your own theological study in Christianity or going to as a last resort, Catholic Answers Forum. it is a very biased Catholic forum, but they will regurgitate answers ad nausia that are in line with Roman Catholic Teaching.

 

side note not at the o.p

To scoff off Christianity, an all religions in general, as foolish, a hoax or stupid, and then jerk it while laughing your ass off, an jerkning buddies off that laugh just as hard because they dont believe in it either, is annoying an immature , but i do understand some people just need that in their life to troll others and be a jackass. 

For those that can be mature and agnostic, and leave others of the faith alone an go on about their life, i respect those people a lot more than the others. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by GLCsector3295

[+Desertrat56]

28 minutes ago, GLCsector3295 said:

To scoff off Christianity, an all religions in general, as foolish, a hoax or stupid, and then jerk it while laughing your ass off, an jerkning buddies off that laugh just as hard because they dont believe in it either, is annoying an immature , but i do understand some people just need that in their life to troll others and be a jackass. 

For those that can be mature and agnostic, and leave others of the faith alone an go on about their life, i respect those people a lot more than the others. 

Try being on the other side of that, being a kid getting screamed at in sunday school by the only adult in the room in front of the other children because you know how to read and point out that what she said is in the bible i not  a complete sentence and the whole sentence means the opposite of what she said.  Try being on the side of being told by your siblings that you will burn in hell because you don't believe like they do, and at the same time they have never asked what you believe, just assumed because you don't go to their church.  I will leave it at that just to give you an idea that there may be a rational reason to question any religion and maybe to even be angry at people who try to shove theirs down your throat and make you wrong about everything, not just religion.

I don't care what you believe as long as you don't try to shove it down my throat, which by that last sentence you seem to be doing, getting emotional and calling names because someone disagrees with you.  When you are an adult that is inappropriate behaviour.  I am not excusing any one who was rude but this is not just one sided.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Desertrat56

[Jodie.Lynne]

@GLCsector3295 You never defined what you meant by immature respondents.

 

As to your Post #432 in this thread: why is your god true, and all other god concepts are false? There are many examples of demi-gods in other religions, so yours is not unique.

 

What is your rationalization for the dramatic shift in your god's dealings with the human race? In the OT, he is vengeful, angry, and vindictive to those who disobey his word. Yet in the NT, his representative on Earth is all "love thy neighbor", "turn the other cheek", etc, etc.  Please note that I am NOT asking you to explain your gods new methodology, but asking how YOU, personally, can accept and rationalize the change.

30 minutes ago, GLCsector3295 said:

To scoff off Christianity, an all religions in general, as foolish, a hoax or stupid, and then jerk it while laughing your ass off, an jerkning buddies off that laugh just as hard because they dont believe in it either, is annoying an immature , but i do understand some people just need that in their life to troll others and be a jackass. 

For those that can be mature and agnostic, and leave others of the faith alone an go on about their life, i respect those people a lot more than the others. 

As to this bit, you start off as a rational being, explaining how you perceive your faith. The last bit though, is derisive, dismissive, arrogant and abusive to those who disagree with your outlook. Apparently, you feel that any criticism of faith is "immature". So, while I agree that you and everyone else can believe as they will, I reserve the right to scoff, question, disbelieve, and generally not accept your invisible friend.

[Jodie.Lynne]

On 7/21/2019 at 1:12 AM, DieChecker said:

If a baby causes someone's death, can it do so on purpose? No. A baby is sinless in its actions.

Soooooooo, if Adam & Eve were as sinless as babies, how is it just that they were punished fore disobeying?

You can't say they were totally innocent in one breath, and then say that they knew the consequences of disobeying in the next.

[danydandan]

Holy crap. AnD.

 

[danydandan]

1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Soooooooo, if Adam & Eve were as sinless as babies, how is it just that they were punished fore disobeying?

You can't say they were totally innocent in one breath, and then say that they knew the consequences of disobeying in the next.

I think Diechecker knows that Adam and Eve were not really real.

[Jodie.Lynne]

1 minute ago, danydandan said:

I think Diechecker knows that Adam and Eve were not really real.

If so, then he should preface his statements as such, no?

But even if he accepts that A&E were a parable to explain sin in the world, and the fall of mankind, the question stands.

If, Adam & Eve were guiltless, naïve, and sinless, then they couldn't possibly understand the ramifications of "disobedience".

Either they knew that 'disobeying' was wrong, or they were guileless and innocent.

 

If a person has diminished mental capacity due to mental retardation, or mental health reasons, they cannot be held accountable for their actions in a court of law. They can be sent to a mental health facility, but it would be a draconian Judge who would sentence such an individual to prison. 

If humans can recognize this dilemma, then why can't god? Or are we actually more compassionate, understanding, and forgiving than he?

 

[GLCsector3295]

2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Try being on the other side of that, being a kid getting screamed at in sunday school by the only adult in the room in front of the other children because you know how to read and point out that what she said is in the bible i not  a complete sentence and the whole sentence means the opposite of what she said.  Try being on the side of being told by your siblings that you will burn in hell because you don't believe like they do, and at the same time they have never asked what you believe, just assumed because you don't go to their church.  I will leave it at that just to give you an idea that there may be a rational reason to question any religion and maybe to even be angry at people who try to shove theirs down your throat and make you wrong about everything, not just religion.

I don't care what you believe as long as you don't try to shove it down my throat, which by that last sentence you seem to be doing, getting emotional and calling names because someone disagrees with you.  When you are an adult that is inappropriate behaviour.  I am not excusing any one who was rude but this is not just one sided.

 I have no clue wtf you are on about, an I was shoving anything down anyones throat. let alone yours. grow up.

[XenoFish]

3 hours ago, GLCsector3295 said:

side note not at the o.p

To scoff off Christianity, an all religions in general, as foolish, a hoax or stupid, and then jerk it while laughing your ass off, an jerkning buddies off that laugh just as hard because they dont believe in it either, is annoying an immature , but i do understand some people just need that in their life to troll others and be a jackass. 

For those that can be mature and agnostic, and leave others of the faith alone an go on about their life, i respect those people a lot more than the others. 

Matthew 7.1

You speak so much about others being immature, yet when I read what you've wrote. I ask myself who is truly the immature one. I hope you do realize what section of the forum you are in. 

Oddly I find those of faith (not all) to be highly judgmental people. They speak of a loving god with venom on their tongues. Is it any wonder that many of us doubt.

[+and-then]

On 7/6/2019 at 3:21 AM, danydandan said:

But the old testament has loads of examples of God commanding deaths. 

I've never knowingly disputed that.  If I did, I was wrong.  I think the basic problem with people who have a desire to have a relationship with a God who is Spirit, is that they get sidetracked with the difference between the OT God of Israel and the Creator God's human incarnation of the new covenant, Christ Jesus.  

Correct me if I'm wrong but does Christ ask for His followers to do the things Israel was tasked with doing?  I've been through that book a few times and I've never come across those instructions.  I willingly stand to be corrected on that.  My understanding of the God of the Bible is that He created us for reasons of his own, "for His pleasure".  If a person

approaches belief in God as a learning experience then the book becomes easier to grasp, I think.  Israel had to be taught the law first.  They had to understand the concept of "life being in the blood".  In their early history that was the use of living animals whose blood was shed to cover (not forgive) their sins.  God told them through Moses what was ahead for them when they turned away from Him and it happened.  Again and again, it happened.  They were a stiffnecked, prideful people and they suffered for it.  Do you know of any humans that don't fit that same mold?  

His slaughter of humans was shocking by our "enlightened" standards today but when people rail and cry about His cruelty, they are ignoring the fact that He gave that life to begin with.  It was His to do with as He chose.  Brutal?  Absolutely.  Does understanding that today make His creation better or more moral than Him?  Remember that when Christ was referred to as "good", He corrected it immediately and said that NONE fit that description.  When modern humans rail and curse the actions of God, I think they do it primarily because they don't want to be told what to do even if they had to admit that His laws make us safer and happier.  It's easier to just stay in a state of denial and open rebellion.  After all, if they refuse to even entertain the idea that life here was planned and created by an intelligent life form, they never have to deal with the issues that would flow from accepting His existence. 

My understanding of the future is that Christ Jesus, the Creator, is going to return and keep His promises to the survivors of "Jacob's trouble" also known as the Tribulation.  At that time, the dispensation of grace to gentiles - any non-Jew - will come to an end.  He will return to the earth at a time when we are literally about to exterminate our species.  He is going to destroy all those who have sought to destroy Israel.  He makes that very clear.  I believe though I cannot prove it through exegesis of the text that many of these will be Muslims and those of other faiths or no faith at all who have seen His miracles on the earth and who have seen scripture fulfilled as written and before their eyes but who still will not accept Him. 

I guess that we all will have a clear choice up until His judgment falls in the second half (last 3.5 years) of the Tribulation.  Our futures will depend on that choice.  I've met a few here who declare they'd rather die than bend a knee.  They'll change their minds, hopefully, or He will give them what they choose.  

Those who curse His name and His sovereignty will not be allowed to interfere with the future He has planned for those who will not only obey but who will trust Him for the future.

Watch Israel's actions in these years (months?) ahead.  As Jerusalem goes, so goes the planet.

Edited July 26, 2019 by and then

[Dejarma]

7 minutes ago, and then said:

I've never knowingly disputed that.  If I did, I was wrong.  I think the basic problem with people who have a desire to have a relationship with a God who is Spirit, is that they get sidetracked with the difference between the OT God of Israel and the Creator God's human incarnation of the new covenant, Christ Jesus.  

Correct me if I'm wrong but does Christ ask for His followers to do the things Israel was tasked with doing?  I've been through that book a few times and I've never come across those instructions.  I willingly stand to be corrected on that.  My understanding of the God of the Bible is that He created us for reasons of his own, "for His pleasure".  If a person

approaches belief in God as a learning experience then the book becomes easier to grasp, I think.  Israel had to be taught the law first.  They had to understand the concept of "life being in the blood".  In their early history that was the use of living animals whose blood was shed to cover (not forgive) their sins.  God told them through Moses what was ahead for them when they turned away from Him and it happened.  Again and again, it happened.  They were a stiffnecked, prideful people and they suffered for it.  Do you know of any humans that don't fit that same mold?  

His slaughter of humans was shocking by our "enlightened" standards today but when people rail and cry about His cruelty, they are ignoring the fact that He gave that life to begin with.  It was His to do with as He chose.  Brutal?  Absolutely.  Does understanding that today make His creation better or more moral than Him?  Remember that when Christ was referred to as "good", He corrected it immediately and said that NONE fit that description.  When modern humans rail and curse the actions of God, I think they do it primarily because they don't want to be told what to do even if they had to admit that His laws make us safer and happier.  It's easier to just stay in a state of denial and open rebellion.  After all, if they refuse to even entertain the idea that life here was planned and created by an intelligent life form, they never have to deal with the issues that would flow from accepting His existence. 

My understanding of the future is that Christ Jesus, the Creator, is going to return and keep His promises to the survivors of "Jacob's trouble" also known as the Tribulation.  At that time, the dispensation of grace to gentiles - any non-Jew - will come to an end.  He will return to the earth at a time when we are literally about to exterminate our species.  He is going to destroy all those who have sought to destroy Israel.  He makes that very clear.  I believe though I cannot prove it through exegesis of the text that many of these will be Muslims and those of other faiths or no faith at all who have seen His miracles on the earth and who have seen scripture fulfilled as written and before their eyes but who still will not accept Him. 

I guess that we all will have a clear choice up until His judgment falls in the second half (last 3.5 years) of the Tribulation.  Our futures will depend on that choice.  I've met a few here who declare they'd rather die than bend a knee.  They'll change their minds, hopefully, or He will give them what they choose.  

Those who curse His name and His sovereignty will not be allowed to interfere with the future He has planned for those who will not only obey but who will trust Him for the future.

Watch Israel's actions in these years (months?) ahead.  As Jerusalem goes, so goes the planet.

interesting words but i'll give it another 50 years before the religious will eventually realize what utter BS it all is & they've been lied to == i hope sooner, but hope springs eternal i guess

[danydandan]

4 hours ago, Dejarma said:

interesting words but i'll give it another 50 years before the religious will eventually realize what utter BS it all is & they've been lied to == i hope sooner, but hope springs eternal i guess

50 years. Such optimism.

[danydandan]

7 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

If so, then he should preface his statements as such, no?

But even if he accepts that A&E were a parable to explain sin in the world, and the fall of mankind, the question stands.

If, Adam & Eve were guiltless, naïve, and sinless, then they couldn't possibly understand the ramifications of "disobedience".

Either they knew that 'disobeying' was wrong, or they were guileless and innocent.

 

If a person has diminished mental capacity due to mental retardation, or mental health reasons, they cannot be held accountable for their actions in a court of law. They can be sent to a mental health facility, but it would be a draconian Judge who would sentence such an individual to prison. 

If humans can recognize this dilemma, then why can't god? Or are we actually more compassionate, understanding, and forgiving than he?

 

Die has said a few times as far as I can recall, which isn't far. Lol.

There are multiple different philosophical principle's to gleam from the story. Including the obviousness of 'how does one sin, if they know not what they do'?

[danydandan]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Matthew 7.1

You speak so much about others being immature, yet when I read what you've wrote. I ask myself who is truly the immature one. I hope you do realize what section of the forum you are in. 

Oddly I find those of faith (not all) to be highly judgmental people. They speak of a loving god with venom on their tongues. Is it any wonder that many of us doubt.

One could argue that having imaginary friends is immature too..... Is there really any difference between God and an Imaginary friend?

[Habitat]

45 minutes ago, danydandan said:

... Is there really any difference between God and an Imaginary friend?

You tell us.

[danydandan]

Just now, Habitat said:

You tell us.

It's not a question one can answer empirically. Is it?

[XenoFish]

2 hours ago, danydandan said:

One could argue that having imaginary friends is immature too..... Is there really any difference between God and an Imaginary friend?

You take one more serious than the other. I mean if a kid has an imaginary friend no one bats an eye, but an adult, well you better organize it and call it a religion. Otherwise there might be psyche issues.

[+DieChecker]

10 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Soooooooo, if Adam & Eve were as sinless as babies, how is it just that they were punished fore disobeying?

You can't say they were totally innocent in one breath, and then say that they knew the consequences of disobeying in the next.

The sin was eating the fruit. Gaining knowledge of good and evil let them know when they did wrong. Sinless/innocent = prefruit. Post fruit = punished. Punished for disobeying. 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

The sin was eating the fruit. Gaining knowledge of good and evil let them know when they did wrong. Sinless/innocent = prefruit. Post fruit = punished. Punished for disobeying. 

So gaining a conscious was a bad thing. Other than that we'd be just another animal.