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darkmoonlady

If Jesus was a god his death wasn't a sacrifi

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Pettytalk
1 hour ago, third_eye said:

Someone forgot the wine, where's the gawd dammit wine... HIC^

*burp*

Why is Jesus hanging... Hey Jesus, watcha doing hanging up there like that, come on down 'ere

Did you bring any wine? 

~

Jesus, a hippie, long hair freak.

 

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Pettytalk
20 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

I think of the notion of Jesus's self-sacrifice, and the sacrament of the Last Supper, to be afterthoughts, probably cooked up by Paul as a way of keeping the flock together and energized, after the calamity of the crucifixion (if we take it that all these things actually happened.)  By the time he had his 'conversion', the movement was vulnerable and lackluster, it needed a 'hook' like the good old, tried and true 'sacrifice the lamb or chicken' cruelty.  It also helped divert emphasis away from Jesus's challenging prescriptions of forgiving one's enemies, compassion for the disadvantaged, castigating the greedy rich, responsibility for one's personal relationship with God, personal responsibility for one's actions toward others, etc.  Much easier, and cleaner, to practice prayer supplication and weekly sacrifice (of the Mass of course), only not even with messy blood and guts from an innocent creature, but with nice clean bread and wine, called a sacrifice but really a cheap dinner party.  Sacrifice, schmacrifice.

(apologies to my noble Christian friends, but that is how I view this bit of history.)

 

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odas
20 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

In a Hindu home I read a comic that explained, in English, what sacrifice was.

Even though it was obviously aimed at children, I still struggled to understand the concept.

I think that this Hindu comic was saying that if an act included some motive then it wasn't true sacrifice. I was left wondering, in that system, could anything ever be a sacrifice. Lent or Ramadan didn't seem to fit (my interpretation of) the Hindu explanation. 

There really seems to be a motive for everything we do.

I know what you mean. What if we all who believe in the message of our religion would stop buying presents to each other at Eid or Christmas and start secretly just giving to the poor with a prayer, God, you did not see this?

How many of us would actualy do this?

There are some though, believers and those who do not believe in any religion. But, they are a secret!

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Desertrat56
18 minutes ago, odas said:

I know what you mean. What if we all who believe in the message of our religion would stop buying presents to each other at Eid or Christmas and start secretly just giving to the poor with a prayer, God, you did not see this?

How many of us would actualy do this?

There are some though, believers and those who do not believe in any religion. But, they are a secret!

And a lot of people who do not believe in any religion do believe in helping others, no matter what time of year it is.

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XenoFish
6 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

And a lot of people who do not believe in any religion do believe in helping others, no matter what time of year it is.

Kindness shouldn't take religion. If you're kind because of religion, how good a person are you really? I think that kindness because of religion is purely selfish.

 

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XenoFish
6 hours ago, odas said:

I know what you mean. What if we all who believe in the message of our religion would stop buying presents to each other at Eid or Christmas and start secretly just giving to the poor with a prayer, God, you did not see this?

How many of us would actualy do this?

There are some though, believers and those who do not believe in any religion. But, they are a secret!

Have you ever thought about how much energy that's put toward religion. The mental, physical, and emotional energy spent into believing. All the hours in prayer, in devotion? Can you imagine all of that energy and time put into just being a decent human being? Without all the hangups. Prayers might make people feel good about doing nothing, I'd rather do something. Instead of wishing for it. How much does religion divide people? Group A hates Group B. People fight over ideologies, how about putting that energy into something constructive? 

I think a lot about stuff like that. How many who've prayed for world peace, without ever being a peaceful person. Short of temper and swift to judge. Self-righteous all because some book told them they were special...

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Jodie.Lynne
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Prayers might make people feel good about doing nothing,

"I didn't donate, either time or money, but I prayed!"

On Facebook, I see a lot of people who post things like "Thoughts and prayers going your way", when someone has posted about losing their home to a flood or tornado.

 

Tell me, how many sheets of plywood, how many pounds of nails, do prayers buy?

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

"I didn't donate, either time or money, but I prayed!"

On Facebook, I see a lot of people who post things like "Thoughts and prayers going your way", when someone has posted about losing their home to a flood or tornado.

 

Tell me, how many sheets of plywood, how many pounds of nails, do prayers buy?

That's my point. It's lazy. The same energy spent in babble a few words could easily be applied to donating a little time to something constructive. Even if it's just a monetary donation of some sort. Cleaning out the kitchen cabinets and giving it to someone who's actually in need. Even small things. I mean the 'thought does count', but only so much. Hope is dangerous.

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Jodie.Lynne
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I mean the 'thought does count', but only so much. Hope is dangerous.

The thought counts for less than an action.

 

I disagree with your last statement. Hope is not dangerous. Hope (with a liberal dose of action and realistic thought) can lead to amazing results.

BUT, one must add equal parts of hope, with action towards a goal.

 

I could wish and pray to win the lottery, but if I don't buy a ticket, what good is my hope?

 

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Golden Duck
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Have you ever thought about how much energy that's put toward religion. The mental, physical, and emotional energy spent into believing. All the hours in prayer, in devotion? Can you imagine all of that energy and time put into just being a decent human being? Without all the hangups. Prayers might make people feel good about doing nothing, I'd rather do something. Instead of wishing for it. How much does religion divide people? Group A hates Group B. People fight over ideologies, how about putting that energy into something constructive? 

I think a lot about stuff like that. How many who've prayed for world peace, without ever being a peaceful person. Short of temper and swift to judge. Self-righteous all because some book told them they were special...

Really, most of the energy,  used in practising a religion, would be spent attending the local service.

There's more effort put into shopping for groceries.

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Golden Duck
9 hours ago, third_eye said:

Someone forgot the wine, where's the gawd dammit wine... HIC^

*burp*

Why is Jesus hanging... Hey Jesus, watcha doing hanging up there like that, come on down 'ere

Did you bring any wine? 

~

Could Jesus turn wine back into water just before you blew into a breathalyser?

Edited by Golden Duck
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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Hope is not dangerous. Hope (with a liberal dose of action and realistic thought) can lead to amazing results.

BUT, one must add equal parts of hope, with action towards a goal.

Hope is an expectation for a specific result. Expectation rarely match reality. Hope is false. I don't believing in hope or faith. You wager too much emotion onto both only to constantly be met with lackluster or no results. 

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Jodie.Lynne
Just now, XenoFish said:

Hope is an expectation for a specific result. Expectation rarely match reality. Hope is false. I don't believing in hope or faith. You wager too much emotion onto both only to constantly be met with lackluster or no results. 

>sigh< You, my friend, really need to get out of that  dark pit you are in. I truly wish that I could lighten your burden.

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XenoFish
Just now, Jodie.Lynne said:

>sigh< You, my friend, really need to get out of that  dark pit you are in. I truly wish that I could lighten your burden.

It's not a pit of darkness. Things will be what they will be regardless of my expectations, hopes, or wishes. Why build oneself up only to have utter disappointment. Like someone hoping to have a beach ready body, quit hoping, quit expecting, just do it. Let the results speak. By setting some unfounded ideal about something you will either not be pleased by the result. Because either they didn't meet the exact expectation or completely failed. 

If you want to prevent disappointment, lower expectation or change reality. 

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DieChecker
9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Have you ever thought about how much energy that's put toward religion. The mental, physical, and emotional energy spent into believing. All the hours in prayer, in devotion? Can you imagine all of that energy and time put into just being a decent human being? Without all the hangups. Prayers might make people feel good about doing nothing, I'd rather do something. Instead of wishing for it. How much does religion divide people? Group A hates Group B. People fight over ideologies, how about putting that energy into something constructive? 

I think a lot about stuff like that. How many who've prayed for world peace, without ever being a peaceful person. Short of temper and swift to judge. Self-righteous all because some book told them they were special...

Meh... I go to church for about 2 hours every week. And probably spend under that during the week praying. I spend probably 10 to 15 hours a week playing Minecraft. And another 4 to 6 on Pokemon Go. If I wanted to really, really do some constructive things, giving up religion would not provide all that much time that I am otherwise wasting doing nothing, or just playing games.

I'd not call time I spend on religion wasted time. It has beneficial feedback and social benefits. Minecraft doesn't have that. I guess it could if I played online some though............... :rofl: 

The only people I know that put actual real amounts of energy into religion are the ministers/pastors/priests. And they're getting paid for it.

Edited by DieChecker
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XenoFish

Guess my point fell flat.

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DieChecker
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Guess my point fell flat.

If you mean the second part of your post...

Quote

I think a lot about stuff like that. How many who've prayed for world peace, without ever being a peaceful person. Short of temper and swift to judge. Self-righteous all because some book told them they were special...

Then yeah, I think a lot of people who claim to be loving are not, and people claiming to be tolerant, are not, and many people claiming to be followers of Jesus, are not.

I think a great many of super religious holy people are going to get the Eyeball from Jesus and he'll say, Basically, "I never knew you...". And they'll have to repent of their entire life of anger/hate/judgementalness.

Quote

Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

Edited by DieChecker

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XenoFish
11 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

If you mean the second part of your post...

Then yeah, I think a lot of people who claim to be loving are not, and people claiming to be tolerant, are not, and many people claiming to be followers of Jesus, are not.

I think a great many of super religious holy people are going to get the Eyeball from Jesus and he'll say, Basically, "I never knew you...". And they'll have to repent of their entire life of anger/hate/judgementalness.

 

That's the thing. Prayers are just wishes. Wishes without action are empty. I suppose it goes back to 'faith without works is dead.'

I don't care about how much someone prays, I'd rather them do. (Hopefully something good)

 

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XenoFish

Intentions without actions are a nice thought. It's the same reason I avoid hope and faith. It sounds nice in my head, but without actions it is just a meaningless thought. And yes, sometimes it is the thought that counts. 

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lightly

The concept of Goodness confuses me.   Where does it come from?  ....I mean without some sort of connective source , like a god or some sort of spiritual reality....where does Goodness reside, or come from?  If LIFE and all there is is truely nothing more than chemical electrical soup ...(Purely Physical)  Where is Goodness? What is Goodness? Why is Goodness? How can Goodness exist?

the same questions could be asked about LOVE.   Is there such a thing?  ..personally I believe that Love is the reason for All of this.    If we want to believe that it's all just an Accident  absolutely without any purpose or meaning ...explain "Goodness" to me.

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lightly

....I've been trying to find the MesoAmerican parallel of Jesus on the cross....isn't there a similar story in Incan,Aztec,Mayan,or somebody's religion?  Of some deity hanging on a Tree?  I find that idea fascinating and want to know how,and when,that idea sprang up in  Or  traveled to  the Americas.    

 Help!    I have to know and can't spare the data to Google for the answers :P

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DieChecker
1 hour ago, lightly said:

The concept of Goodness confuses me.   Where does it come from?  ....I mean without some sort of connective source , like a god or some sort of spiritual reality....where does Goodness reside, or come from?  If LIFE and all there is is truely nothing more than chemical electrical soup ...(Purely Physical)  Where is Goodness? What is Goodness? Why is Goodness? How can Goodness exist?

the same questions could be asked about LOVE.   Is there such a thing?  ..personally I believe that Love is the reason for All of this.    If we want to believe that it's all just an Accident  absolutely without any purpose or meaning ...explain "Goodness" to me.

Some say humans are intrinsically good. And there are some animal studies, and psychology studies, that suggest it could be so.

Myself, I think being "Good" is learned, and that without some central societal stabilizing column, humans will revert to barbarism. Religion has been that column for millennia. I'm not saying that something couldn't replace it, but we've seen that trying to replace it with dictators, and with altruistic communism, has utterly failed. People are trying UFOs, and Celebrities, and who knows what else... But, ultimately those, I think, have failed too. We'll have to wait and see if any social construct comes along that has the wide appeal and influence of religion in the future.

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eight bits
1 hour ago, lightly said:

.isn't there a similar story in Incan,Aztec,Mayan,or somebody's religion?  Of some deity hanging on a Tree?

Well, Odin-Wotan hung on the World Tree (Yggdrasil ... and people complain about English spelling), but that may have been influenced by the Christian story.

Similar depends on the level of abstraction you'll accept. It's not hard to find agricultural gods getting killed, then planted, then coming back (just as crops are harvested, some part of the harvest is set aside as seed, the seeds are planted, and then a new crop of the same species emerges). Jesus is very agricultural. There's a lot of Dionysus in the Jesus legends and Dionysus (= vines and the fruit thereof, often fermented) was broken up by the bad Titans, etc. etc. ... but now? there he is, good as new, tending bar.

Seed-to-plant imagery was chosen by Paul to explain the relationship between the "resurrection pneuma-body" and our everyday meat suits. Paul was a bright guy; I think he understood the Dionysus precedent. And Paul's big innovation? No more animal sacrifices, let's use bread and grape drink instead. Uh huh.

Anyway, "similarity" is more like a thread than a Google search :)

If you're looking for a New World example, then maybe try this one on for size:
 

Quote

BILL MOYERS: Tell me that story of the origin of maize, as Longfellow borrowed it ...

JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, it’s an Algonquian story, and it is simply of the boy in his vision, he sees a young man come to him with plumes on his head, and green and so forth, and visitant invites the young man to a wrestling match, and allows him to win. He wins and wins, this happens three or four times; but he tells him, “The last time I come, you must kill me and bury me, and take care of the place where you will have buried me.” And the boy then in the last one actually does what he has been told to do, plants the man, the visitant, and in time comes back and sees the com growing....

https://billmoyers.com/content/ep-4-joseph-campbell-and-the-power-of-myth-sacrifice-and-bliss-audio/

Edited by eight bits
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lightly

Thanks eight bits!   I'm specifically looking for the (somebody special)  hung on a Tree  story from ancient MesoAmerican religion...sorry to be so vague..it's all I can remember about it!   (Old age and chemo brain damage)

I'm just struck by the extreme similarity to Jesus' crucifiction story...and am especially interested to know if it Originated in the Americas ! !    Or traveled here and mingled with one of the local religions...see what I mean?

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https://freethoughtnation.com/our-lord-and-savior-quetzalcoatl/

.     Saints be praised !   I just pasted this link from another site! (On this iPad).   Will miracles never cease?!

and..I found what I was looking for!   It's the story of Kukulcan/Quetzalcoatl  from mezoamerican religion...

he was born of a virgin....was crucified...went to the underworld after death...defeated the "prince" of darkness...was resurrected....was called the second Sun...was depicted as light skinned and bearded....

And all this, Centuries before "first contact" ....    Go figure huh?  !   ?

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