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darkmoonlady

If Jesus was a god his death wasn't a sacrifi

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Rlyeh
1 minute ago, Golden Duck said:

That's not what you wrote. Projected your motives onto "them" based on your feelings.

You can't even remember your own weak eisegesis.

I wrote; "I get the feeling they might be projecting their own masochistic fantasies on Jesus."

So I'm projecting my motives onto them..  I'm the one with the fantasies that happen to be the same as the overdramatic torture of Jesus?

Is this some poor attempt at defending Christian dogma?  Stick to "I know you are but what am I?"

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Golden Duck
Just now, Rlyeh said:

I wrote; "I get the feeling they might be projecting their own masochistic fantasies on Jesus."

So I'm projecting my motives onto them..  I'm the one with the fantasies that happen to be the same as the overdramatic torture of Jesus?

Is this some poor attempt at defending Christian dogma?  Stick to "I know you are but what am I?"

Was your's an attempt to turn your feelings to identity politics?

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DieChecker
12 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

I don't get why some Christians think Jesus had to suffer every imaginable horror.  I've read some claims he was raped and sexually abused by the Romans.

I get the feeling they might be projecting their own masochistic fantasies on Jesus.

I don't get that either. Why does it have to be even more gruesome then what's already in the Bible? 

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DieChecker
3 hours ago, odas said:

Christians, Jews, Muslims. Just to pick on them a bit. All organized members of an organized religion.

Then, we organize ourselfs into more defined Christians, Muslims and Jews:

Catholics, Evangelists, Orthodox..then Suni, Shia..then orthodox Jews, Conservative, Reformist...

And then, as religious organisations, we all claim that  our way is the right way. Out of all this organization chaos has been created and, as organized humans, we do not know how to deal with it.

I, and many like me, declare myself a Christian only, a Muslim only, a Jew only. We are not organized. Everyone for him/herself. Everyone finds his or her own way to the Higher Being. Freely. Without peer pressure, musts, don'ts.

Between God and me there is noone.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as when you are standing before God, and he scolds you on some point or other, that you concede on what you were, and were not, correct about.

Edited by DieChecker

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Rlyeh
21 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I don't get that either. Why does it have to be even more gruesome then what's already in the Bible? 

First heard the rape claim from the televangelist Kenneth Copeland.

"Jesus was raped by homosexual Roman soldiers everyway possible."

https://treeoflifeblog.com/2009/08/22/what-does-kenneth-copeland-teach/

Now other Christians/Catholics are saying the Romans sexually abused and raped Jesus.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2019/03/was-jesus-really-sexually-abused/

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danydandan
4 hours ago, odas said:

Christians, Jews, Muslims. Just to pick on them a bit. All organized members of an organized religion.

Then, we organize ourselfs into more defined Christians, Muslims and Jews:

Catholics, Evangelists, Orthodox..then Suni, Shia..then orthodox Jews, Conservative, Reformist...

And then, as religious organisations, we all claim that  our way is the right way. Out of all this organization chaos has been created and, as organized humans, we do not know how to deal with it.

I, and many like me, declare myself a Christian only, a Muslim only, a Jew only. We are not organized. Everyone for him/herself. Everyone finds his or her own way to the Higher Being. Freely. Without peer pressure, musts, don'ts.

Between God and me there is noone.

And what does this have anything to do with your comment regarding, irreligious individuals being 'nicer' than those of religious convictions?

I'm not sure we are even having the same conversation.

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danydandan
10 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

First heard the rape claim from the televangelist Kenneth Copeland.

"Jesus was raped by homosexual Roman soldiers everyway possible."

https://treeoflifeblog.com/2009/08/22/what-does-kenneth-copeland-teach/

Now other Christians/Catholics are saying the Romans sexually abused and raped Jesus.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2019/03/was-jesus-really-sexually-abused/

People will saying to justify their beliefs.

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DieChecker
30 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

First heard the rape claim from the televangelist Kenneth Copeland.

"Jesus was raped by homosexual Roman soldiers everyway possible."

https://treeoflifeblog.com/2009/08/22/what-does-kenneth-copeland-teach/

Now other Christians/Catholics are saying the Romans sexually abused and raped Jesus.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2019/03/was-jesus-really-sexually-abused/

Interesting. I've read of people who have said that Jesus did all kinds of things... slept with prostitutes... killed a man in Reno just to watch him die.... Because the Bible says he experienced the complete experience of what it is to be alive.

I'd imagine this is just more along that line.

Reading the second link, it seems to me that is a lot of "possibly"s. Seems like to me just looking for reasons to be angry/offended, when that wasn't Jesus' message, or teaching, at all.

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Golden Duck
57 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

First heard the rape claim from the televangelist Kenneth Copeland.

"Jesus was raped by homosexual Roman soldiers everyway possible."

https://treeoflifeblog.com/2009/08/22/what-does-kenneth-copeland-teach/

Now other Christians/Catholics are saying the Romans sexually abused and raped Jesus.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2019/03/was-jesus-really-sexually-abused/

Marketing to increase a brand's goodwill.

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Golden Duck
35 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Interesting. I've read of people who have said that Jesus did all kinds of things... slept with prostitutes... killed a man in Reno just to watch him die.... Because the Bible says he experienced the complete experience of what it is to be alive.

I'd imagine this is just more along that line.

Reading the second link, it seems to me that is a lot of "possibly"s. Seems like to me just looking for reasons to be angry/offended, when that wasn't Jesus' message, or teaching, at all.

The second link is a show of empathy. Hence, the language "us survivors".

It resembles a motor insurer pledging "we get you."

Edited by Golden Duck
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XenoFish
5 hours ago, odas said:

Christians, Jews, Muslims. Just to pick on them a bit. All organized members of an organized religion.

Then, we organize ourselfs into more defined Christians, Muslims and Jews:

Catholics, Evangelists, Orthodox..then Suni, Shia..then orthodox Jews, Conservative, Reformist...

And then, as religious organisations, we all claim that  our way is the right way. Out of all this organization chaos has been created and, as organized humans, we do not know how to deal with it.

I, and many like me, declare myself a Christian only, a Muslim only, a Jew only. We are not organized. Everyone for him/herself. Everyone finds his or her own way to the Higher Being. Freely. Without peer pressure, musts, don'ts.

Between God and me there is noone.

That just sounds like spirituality with extra steps.

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XenoFish
1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Nothing wrong with that, as long as when you are standing before God, and he scolds you on some point or other, that you concede on what you were, and were not, correct about.

On the opposite side of that coin: nothing. Lights out, no one home. No heaven, no hell, no awareness, just no-thing. Eternal dreamless slumber.

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DieChecker
23 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

On the opposite side of that coin: nothing. Lights out, no one home. No heaven, no hell, no awareness, just no-thing. Eternal dreamless slumber.

Everyone should be ready for that if it happens too.

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XenoFish
57 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Everyone should be ready for that if it happens too.

How can you plan of uncertainty. When it comes to Christianity it's all judgement and damnation. God will Judge, Jesus will Judge, whatever. I really wonder why such ideas exist. Do people have some kind of guilt complex where they want eternal punishment? Is it some form of masochism? A need for punishment? Almost as if it's attention seeking behavior. 

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

How can you plan of uncertainty. When it comes to Christianity it's all judgement and damnation. God will Judge, Jesus will Judge, whatever. I really wonder why such ideas exist. Do people have some kind of guilt complex where they want eternal punishment? Is it some form of masochism? A need for punishment? Almost as if it's attention seeking behavior. 

I think a lot of it have to do with making sure that the people that disagrees with you are punished. I guess it's reassuring for some to know that the unbelievers are punished for their beliefs. Its a little amusing to think that if there really is some kind of judgement in an afterlife, a lot of the people believing it will be punished themselves because they believed in the wrong version.

It takes a large amount of cognitive dissonance to simultanously believe that god is love and that its fine for god to punish people eternally.

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DieChecker
14 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

How can you plan of uncertainty. When it comes to Christianity it's all judgement and damnation. God will Judge, Jesus will Judge, whatever. I really wonder why such ideas exist. Do people have some kind of guilt complex where they want eternal punishment? Is it some form of masochism? A need for punishment? Almost as if it's attention seeking behavior. 

That's easy. Do what you think you should do, when you think you should do it. And you'll have a lot fewer regrets. A plan to just be a good person is a plan for success, regardless of when you die, and regardless of if there's an afterlife or not.

Obviously saying that "God will Judge....", is a call to obey. Obey these (insert specific examples here) rules, or XYZ is going to happen to you. Same thing with Karma, or Reincarnation... If you do wrong, Karma will get you. If you die being a bad person, you'll be reincarnated into a cockroach, or lamprey. Those are about intimidation also, basically. 

Reward/Punishment systems are how almost all humans get through almost every single day. You get paid for working. Fired if you don't do it well enough. You get Water/Electric/Garbage (pick up) if you pay your bills, but you don't if you don't pay them. 

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
7 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Reward/Punishment systems are how almost all humans get through almost every single day. You get paid for working. Fired if you don't do it well enough. 

For the next 3 weeks I will get paid for not working. :P

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

That's easy. Do what you think you should do, when you think you should do it. And you'll have a lot fewer regrets. A plan to just be a good person is a plan for success, regardless of when you die, and regardless of if there's an afterlife or not.

Obviously saying that "God will Judge....", is a call to obey. Obey these (insert specific examples here) rules, or XYZ is going to happen to you. Same thing with Karma, or Reincarnation... If you do wrong, Karma will get you. If you die being a bad person, you'll be reincarnated into a cockroach, or lamprey. Those are about intimidation also, basically. 

Reward/Punishment systems are how almost all humans get through almost every single day. You get paid for working. Fired if you don't do it well enough. You get Water/Electric/Garbage (pick up) if you pay your bills, but you don't if you don't pay them. 

I understand cause and effect well. What I don't get is this desire to guilt trip people for not believing and then once they accept such a belief, guilt them into conformity out of fear, due to the possibility of eternal punishment. I also don't understand how one dead demi-god jew paid the cost for humanities sins. Why in the hell does god need a blood sacrifice anyway. All because a belief systems said so? When I really look at it, people believe because of cause and effect. They think if I do X, I will get Y, due to Z. It's the same magical thinking that runs through occultism. 

9 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I think a lot of it have to do with making sure that the people that disagrees with you are punished. I guess it's reassuring for some to know that the unbelievers are punished for their beliefs. Its a little amusing to think that if there really is some kind of judgement in an afterlife, a lot of the people believing it will be punished themselves because they believed in the wrong version.

It takes a large amount of cognitive dissonance to simultanously believe that god is love and that its fine for god to punish people eternally.

Wouldn't you say that it's very cult-ish in nature though. Everyone else is wrong except us, join us, be like us and you too will receive a heavenly reward. 

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DieChecker
6 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

For the next 3 weeks I will get paid for not working. :P

Yet you still have the job. A perk, not a freebie. :D

You have worked there long enough, that you get a Reward... time off.

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DieChecker
16 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I understand cause and effect well. What I don't get is this desire to guilt trip people for not believing and then once they accept such a belief, guilt them into conformity out of fear, due to the possibility of eternal punishment. I also don't understand how one dead demi-god jew paid the cost for humanities sins. Why in the hell does god need a blood sacrifice anyway. All because a belief systems said so? When I really look at it, people believe because of cause and effect. They think if I do X, I will get Y, due to Z. It's the same magical thinking that runs through occultism. 

Wouldn't you say that it's very cult-ish in nature though. Everyone else is wrong except us, join us, be like us and you too will receive a heavenly reward. 

The way I read the Bible, Christians are NOT supposed to guilt trip non-Christians, or their fellow Christians. They are supposed to express unconditional love, and help people. And thereby, from being a good neighbor, or friend, cause the non-Christian to consider becoming a Christian. Fear is not supposed to be in it. Neither is Judgementalism. Judgement is for God and Jesus.

Why Jesus had to die.... Well, I read a article a short while back that said that in Ancient Judaism, all sin had to be covered by blood to be forgiven. ALL SIN. To END that practice, and have non-blood, non-sacrificial, forgiveness going forward forever... there had to be a whopper of a sacrifice. Otherwise the people, the Ancient Jews, would not believe it really happened. And what bigger sacrifice then the one and only son of God? And, because killing God's son is basically kind of sick... He got to come back to life, and now is in Heaven.

I know.... You'll probably say, "BUT WTF, that system was set up by God in the first place...". And that would be true. But, He wanted to change things, and so had to operate within his own rules. Being as how he said he'd never kill everyone off again, like with The Flood, to start over... 

Probably would have been wiser to start over. :yes: Who'd be left to call him out?

Edited by DieChecker

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XenoFish
7 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I know.... You'll probably say, "BUT WTF, that system was set up by God in the first place..."

No. It was set up by people. Not god. People and their idea of what their god wanted. Not that god wanted anything, if god even exists.

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Rlyeh
29 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Why Jesus had to die.... Well, I read a article a short while back that said that in Ancient Judaism, all sin had to be covered by blood to be forgiven. ALL SIN. To END that practice, and have non-blood, non-sacrificial, forgiveness going forward forever... there had to be a whopper of a sacrifice. Otherwise the people, the Ancient Jews, would not believe it really happened. And what bigger sacrifice then the one and only son of God? And, because killing God's son is basically kind of sick... He got to come back to life, and now is in Heaven.

Why does Yahweh need death to forgive in the first place?

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DieChecker
56 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Why does Yahweh need death to forgive in the first place?

Why have a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil at all? Why create a Flood? Why ask Abraham to sacrifice, and then give him a goat to use instead? Good questions to ask when (if?) we see Him.

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XenoFish
11 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Why have a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil at all? Why create a Flood? Why ask Abraham to sacrifice, and then give him a goat to use instead? Good questions to ask when (if?) we see Him.

These stories all have one theme. Obedience. Even the 'flood' is just a story about what happens when people disobey god. 

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

The way I read the Bible, Christians are NOT supposed to guilt trip non-Christians, or their fellow Christians. They are supposed to express unconditional love, and help people. And thereby, from being a good neighbor, or friend, cause the non-Christian to consider becoming a Christian. Fear is not supposed to be in it. Neither is Judgementalism. Judgement is for God and Jesus.

Why Jesus had to die.... Well, I read a article a short while back that said that in Ancient Judaism, all sin had to be covered by blood to be forgiven. ALL SIN. To END that practice, and have non-blood, non-sacrificial, forgiveness going forward forever... there had to be a whopper of a sacrifice. Otherwise the people, the Ancient Jews, would not believe it really happened. And what bigger sacrifice then the one and only son of God? And, because killing God's son is basically kind of sick... He got to come back to life, and now is in Heaven.

I know.... You'll probably say, "BUT WTF, that system was set up by God in the first place...". And that would be true. But, He wanted to change things, and so had to operate within his own rules. Being as how he said he'd never kill everyone off again, like with The Flood, to start over... 

Probably would have been wiser to start over. :yes: Who'd be left to call him out?

I allways found it odd that people think it makes sense to have god sacrifice himself, to himself, to change the rules that he made himself. :wacko:

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