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darkmoonlady

If Jesus was a god his death wasn't a sacrifi

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XenoFish
9 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I allways found it odd that people think it makes sense to have god sacrifice himself, to himself, to change the rules that he made himself. :wacko:

Spiritual plot holes. 

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odas
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

That just sounds like spirituality with extra steps.

Spot on.

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odas
6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Nothing wrong with that, as long as when you are standing before God, and he scolds you on some point or other, that you concede on what you were, and were not, correct about.

That's a given. No choice there.

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Jodie.Lynne
13 hours ago, Sojo said:

I hope this helps cast some light on what I was trying to say.

I am not trying to be condescending, or ridicule your beliefs, but it really sounds like you've taken different aspects of various beliefs and mixed them into a goulash that is pleasing to your spiritual palate. Belief in Jesus, reincarnation, and karma?

But if it works for you, who am I to say you're wrong

13 hours ago, Sojo said:

Some people just don't want to believe that God exists, which is what Christ called the first great commandment.  And he gave a second one stating that people should love others as themselves, and treat others the way they would want to be treated. What a wonderful world it would be if these two simple commandments were accepted and adhered to by everyone.

It's a shame though, that this man who can forgive "karmic debts" and instruct about loving others as themselves, had absolutely nothing negative to say about slavery, but instead condoned the practice by telling slaves to 'serve their masters, even the cruel ones.'

 

13 hours ago, Sojo said:

Some people just don't want to believe that God exists,

Which god? And is god (any god) wants people to believe in him, why all the smoke & mirrors? Why hide and rely on messengers and 'faith'?

If you wanted me to believe that you could turn lead into gold, which would you do:

A - demonstrate the process, explaining it and answering questions;

or

B - send your friends to tell me that you turned lead into gold, and that I just had to believe.

 

Which method would be most effective, A or B?

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Jodie.Lynne
2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

But, He wanted to change things, and so had to operate within his own rules.

So there ARE things that the omnipotent 'creator of everything' cannot do?

Considering that he made the rules, according to the mythology, and that the god of the OT seems to have no problem manifesting his works, or in telling people what he wanted from them, it tastes like very weak sauce to me that he now has to work through a convoluted redemption scheme in order to effect a change.

2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Otherwise the people, the Ancient Jews, would not believe it really happened.

Please clarify who you are referring to by "Ancient Jews". Do you mean the Jews alive at the time of the Jesus debacle? Or the ancient Jews of the time of Moses? Because, if I recall correctly, the Jews of Jesus' time didn't believe he was the son of god and rejected him as the Messiah. And the really ancient Jews would probably all be dead, and not really too interested....

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Mr Walker
On 06/07/2019 at 5:46 AM, darkmoonlady said:

If Jesus were a comic book character, knowing he was the son of God and immortal, doesn't that make him dying on the cross meaningless? He knew he couldn't really die. Whatever pain he experienced he chose to experience, as a god he is capable of healing himself and just getting off the cross. I'm a skeptical pagan so call me biased but this has bothered me. I don't believe in the Bible and don't see it as real but even as a concept it seems like a problem. His death is always framed by his believers as a sacrifice or that he died for the sins of others but him knowing he could not die or die and come back makes that not a death FOR anything. More like a trick. 

A  person offered this simple explanation to me last week and backed it up with plenty of biblical material 

Christ  was man while he was on earth. 

He was subject to the same pain, suffering and temptations as all men  

He was born again of the holy spirit when physically born and so represents all born again Christians.

In reverse he is the template for how all born again humans should behave and be,  as the y have the same power of the spirit as he did to resist temptation and overcome things like desire 

He died a man 

This person believes he remains a man while in heaven and this is so he can represent us /basically the idea is tha t to be a sacrifice for us chirst had to belike us and to know us as human beings

He surrendered his god nature for human nature, BUT all humans who are "born again of the spirit"  are the same as Christ Ie he is immortal but so are all born again Christians Like Christ the y have to die on earth for eventual rebirth  but then will live for ever without pain suffering or imperfections 

So its not a  "trick" 
In life, death, and resurrection, Christ is the template and example for all/any born again human being. 

He went through the same things we do, and suffered a terrible death  But we have the promise of eternal life, along with him.

We are offered the same future Resurrection, perfection, and existence, as he has now. 

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Sojo
21 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I am not trying to be condescending, or ridicule your beliefs, but it really sounds like you've taken different aspects of various beliefs and mixed them into a goulash that is pleasing to your spiritual palate. Belief in Jesus, reincarnation, and karma?

But if it works for you, who am I to say you're wrong

It's a shame though, that this man who can forgive "karmic debts" and instruct about loving others as themselves, had absolutely nothing negative to say about slavery, but instead condoned the practice by telling slaves to 'serve their masters, even the cruel ones.'

 

Which god? And is god (any god) wants people to believe in him, why all the smoke & mirrors? Why hide and rely on messengers and 'faith'?

If you wanted me to believe that you could turn lead into gold, which would you do:

A - demonstrate the process, explaining it and answering questions;

or

B - send your friends to tell me that you turned lead into gold, and that I just had to believe.

 

Which method would be most effective, A or B?

Hi Jodie.Lynne, I see your still working on the question (like so many of us).

--Goulash can be very tasty. I tend to search for Truth and look for it in various places that I think might help me discover some of it. But Truth is very elusive, and is sometimes dependent on perspective. I try to look for solutions that can help reconcile things into more palatable answers. Also, I'm willing to believe there are beings who have a greater perspective and understanding of things, and I'm willing to ask for guidance in my quest of discovery. This world is a maze, and mazes are very difficult while you are down in them. I think God (and/or other spiritual or ministering beings) have the perspective of being above the maze where it is easier to see the correct path to take. I don't see where reincarnation is contrary to Christianity. Christ had more than one opportunity to refute the idea, but chose not to do so. See here:

John 9

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

The blind man would have had to sin before his current birth to be born blind. Christ could have refuted the idea altogether but didn't (as he didn't in another instance when the topic was considered). Also, Karma is simply the principle of reaping what is sowed, which is also a christian tenet.

--I don't think Christ condoned slavery. The guidance for obeying them is something the Apostle Paul (and Peter) counseled while it was a culturally recognized practice (even if wrongly so). Christ did acknowledge that some men had "masters", but I don't think he was going to address every kind of cultural wrong or sin. I think the focus should be more on things like Matthew chapter 5 and all the "Blessed are....." comments. (BTW, I don't worship any book. I don't regard the Bible or any other "scripture" as being divine, or to be worshiped or reverenced as such.) However, I do believe Christ is historically a true, existent person.

--I'm not really interested in convincing everyone that I can turn lead into gold, particularly if they couldn't care less about knowing whether I can.

I think our existence here in this world has something to do with experiencing things. To me, reality is whatever can be experienced. What is it like to experience total ignorance? What is it like to be on a personal quest for Truth? What is it like to be deceived and lied to? What is it like to experience things learned by trial and error? What are the different kinds of perspective that can be experienced?  To experience all the differing contrasts and degrees along multiple spectrums of reality is to me, better than doing/being nothing at all. Since I'm on the journey, I just try to make the best of it and find the optimal path.

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ScotDeerie

When a sentence starts with "If" almost anything can follow it with little logic required:

If I had hooves instead of fingers, I couldn't type.

If cats could fly there wouldn't be any birds.

If ghosts see us do we look like ghosts to them?

If Jesus had said, "Nah, I don't want to do that, Dad" what would man have found to argue about for the last 2000+ years?

 

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lightly

It seems to me that we made God a man...long before God made himself a man, in the form of Jesus.  The God of thee bible ,and the other two branches of the Abrahamic religions, is anthropomorphic.  We have made God like us.  It sounds odd to me to call God ... "He"

i actually believe in God, ...but my belief goeth Beyond my understanding :lol:    I guess any sort of faith is of the heart more than the mind?   I see the universe as ONE.  It started out that way?  ..so it still is.   I also Feel the universe is alive...why not?   I Know i am...and I am part of the whole.  Or we are, and we are part of the whole?

we've put ourselves through the myserys of conflicts and bloody sacrifices for thousands of years to appease a God of our minds own creation?   

     (Dam,that's pretty good lightly!) :lol:

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onlookerofmayhem
On 7/13/2019 at 5:33 AM, XenoFish said:

That just sounds like spirituality with extra steps.

I see what you did there, Rick. :w00t:

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DieChecker
On 7/13/2019 at 7:39 AM, Jodie.Lynne said:

So there ARE things that the omnipotent 'creator of everything' cannot do?

Considering that he made the rules, according to the mythology, and that the god of the OT seems to have no problem manifesting his works, or in telling people what he wanted from them, it tastes like very weak sauce to me that he now has to work through a convoluted redemption scheme in order to effect a change.

Weaksauce or not. It's clear God appears to always move forward, rather then back, and build on what came before. Though I agree,  if God is omnipotent He should be able to do literally anything, and so fix anything, as if it never happened.

Quote

Please clarify who you are referring to by "Ancient Jews". Do you mean the Jews alive at the time of the Jesus debacle? Or the ancient Jews of the time of Moses? Because, if I recall correctly, the Jews of Jesus' time didn't believe he was the son of god and rejected him as the Messiah. And the really ancient Jews would probably all be dead, and not really too interested....

Yeah, the Jews of Jesus' time. Many rejected him, but some didn't. There was a thriving "church" lead by James there, which is attested in Acts and other books of the Bible. Who were seen as the Christian authorities of their day. The Romans burning down Jerusalem in 65 CE meant it wasnt there long though.

They were very much a "show me" kind of people. But more so they were a "I will be killed if I don't follow the law" kind of people. So many would not convert, though they may have seen miracles, or been baptized by John.

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Jodie.Lynne
10 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Weaksauce or not. It's clear God appears to always move forward, rather then back, and build on what came before.

Ummm, since when?  According to the OT, he was more apt to wipe everything out and start fresh. Which, time and again, lead to the same overall result, no?

First Woman: Lilith. Didn't work out, too "independent"

First Woman Mk II: Eve. Didn't quite work out, too easily tempted.

Satan/ Lucifer, first amongst all the angels, who could personally attest to the existence and splendor of god. Yet rebels...

And how many times was Israel placed in "bondage" for disobeying the laws of god? It seems that god cannot even find a 'chosen" people to bow to his demands, consistently.

Time and again, throughout the OT, there are examples of 'god' noting that he erred (the flood story, Sodom & Gomorrah, Tower of Babel), and finally, sending his "son" to redeem everything, which, once again, did not have the desired effect.

 

Yes, yes, I know, I know, it's all the fault of those horrible, wicked, flawed humans. Almost as if a "perfect being" cannot design a 'perfect human'.

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XenoFish
26 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Almost as if a "perfect being" cannot design a 'perfect human'.

It's almost as if humans can't design a decent god. 

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Jodie.Lynne
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's almost as if humans can't design a decent god. 

Oh, but they do! All the time.

It's just that the perfect god is rubbish at design execution.

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DieChecker
36 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Ummm, since when?  According to the OT, he was more apt to wipe everything out and start fresh. Which, time and again, lead to the same overall result, no?

Yes, but He didn't rewind time, or pop the Earth out of existence. He just did what was easiest at the time and moved on.

He didn't teleport in and smack the fruit out of Adam's hand... He didn't just pop the Ark into existence. Why bother saving animals if He could just recreate them with a thought.

No God saves what He can and moved forward. This us why He had to act within the framework the current people understood. Or at least as much as He could and not not scare off everyone.

Quote

First Woman: Lilith. Didn't work out, too "independent"

First Woman Mk II: Eve. Didn't quite work out, too easily tempted.

Satan/ Lucifer, first amongst all the angels, who could personally attest to the existence and splendor of god. Yet rebels...

And how many times was Israel placed in "bondage" for disobeying the laws of god? It seems that god cannot even find a 'chosen" people to bow to his demands, consistently.

Time and again, throughout the OT, there are examples of 'god' noting that he erred (the flood story, Sodom & Gomorrah, Tower of Babel), and finally, sending his "son" to redeem everything, which, once again, did not have the desired effect.

 

Yes, yes, I know, I know, it's all the fault of those horrible, wicked, flawed humans. Almost as if a "perfect being" cannot design a 'perfect human'.

Exactly.

I think God got it about as right as he could though with Jesus, considering where Christianity is today.

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DieChecker
16 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's almost as if humans can't design a decent god. 

I came up with some good ones for Dungeons and Dragons. :tsu:

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Jodie.Lynne
4 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I came up with some good ones for Dungeons and Dragons. :tsu:

I preferred the ones in Deities & Demigods, myself, especially the Melnibonean ones

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DieChecker
3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I preferred the ones in Deities & Demigods, myself, especially the Melnibonean ones

I didn't get a hold of that one before it was recalled and the cut down version was put out. Elric and company were taken out due to copyright, I think. Still, some killer gods in that pantheon. Arioch....

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XenoFish
11 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I preferred the ones in Deities & Demigods, myself, especially the Melnibonean ones

 

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I came up with some good ones for Dungeons and Dragons. :tsu:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSi3nUcDByKngGto1llqng

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Pettytalk
16 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Yes, yes, I know, I know, it's all the fault of those horrible, wicked, flawed humans. Almost as if a "perfect being" cannot design a 'perfect human'.

Yes, yes, yes, you are correct. A perfect being could not, therefore let us bash mother nature, since our horrible, wicked, and flawed humans are a product of nature and evolution. But why stop with humans when it comes to flaws?

Xfish asks, who made God? I'll ask, who made mother nature?

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Pettytalk
15 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Oh, but they do! All the time.

It's just that the perfect god is rubbish at design execution.

It was probably just beginner's mistakes, since God began everything and our world is the first production model. That is why he also promised to ultimately make everything new, rather than trying to keep salvaging some of his better work. Too many repairs degrade his work of art, and reputation.

Not only will he make everything new, but as you requested, he'll come down himself, to show us who he is, without any of those middle men/women.

Revelation 21:

4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 

 

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Desertrat56
6 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

It was probably just beginner's mistakes, since God began everything and our world is the first production model. That is why he also promised to ultimately make everything new, rather than trying to keep salvaging some of his better work. Too many repairs degrade his work of art, and reputation.

Not only will he make everything new, but as you requested, he'll come down himself, to show us who he is, without any of those middle men/women.

Revelation 21:

4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 

 

Historians claim that the descriptions in the book of revelations have already happened.  I don't  remember where I read it but it made a lot of sense.  Some of it could have been interpreted as King Arthur and the Romans in england based on the animal symbols.  Maybe I will look it up and see if I can find it again.

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

A perfect being could not, therefore let us bash mother nature, since our horrible, wicked, and flawed humans are a product of nature and evolution.

The difference being that mother nature never claimed to be the most goodest, bestest font and exemplar of moral perfection, nor does it hypocritically judge us concerning what silly things it thinks are 'sinful' nor care about our supposed 'wickedness'.

So what's to bash?  God arranges so that there are no sinless humans, except maybe one, and then punishes us for what he himself is responsible for; I doubt you'd have trouble identifying the bashable issues with that if it was Satan who had set it up this way instead of God.  Nature on the other hand always delivers exactly what it promises to us: nothing.

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Pettytalk
4 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

The difference being that mother nature never claimed to be the most goodest, bestest font and exemplar of moral perfection, nor does it hypocritically judge us concerning what silly things it thinks are 'sinful' nor care about our supposed 'wickedness'.

So what's to bash?  God arranges so that there are no sinless humans, except maybe one, and then punishes us for what he himself is responsible for; I doubt you'd have trouble identifying the bashable issues with that if it was Satan who had set it up this way instead of God.  Nature on the other hand always delivers exactly what it promises to us: nothing.

Poor rhetorical going around in circles argument. Man is the product of nature. And all this God business, as you ardent science worshipers always claim, is a product of man's imagination, as there are no gods or God. Or are you one that believes in a god, but believe it's a bad god, one that is partial to some, and also mean and cruel?

You cannot have it both ways, no god, and no bad nature. Man is a product of nature in everything. Every human being has been fashioned by nature, if we take your side. Nature gets all the credit for whatever we see as being good or bad in each and every human being. Not to mention everything else in nature. Nature is your god, therefore take responsibility for your god, and I will take responsibility for mine. However, I know my God very much differently than all religions, and I can tell you that God is Good. And in the end, as they say, all that ends well is well. In other words, the end justifies the means.

Of course, I'm only human, and I could be wrong about God being Good. And if I am, it only means that we are all in hell already. Mother nature is cruel and sadistic, as it mandates lifeforms to to kill and eat other life forms to survive. Is there anything more tyrannical than that? Is that the best mother nature can do?

Mother nature does make promises, and keeps them too. If you are born you will die. If you are born you will have mostly troubles, and mostly failures. I mean we can sit here and enumerate all that is wrong in nature, but what will it serve? As I said, your god, mother nature, can easily be blamed for all the things God is blamed for. What's the difference? We are what we are, and think what we think, or believe what we believe, and all by nature, God or no God.

 

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

Poor rhetorical going around in circles argument. Man is the product of nature.

Sorry if I've confused you.  It seemed to me you were comparing two scenarios and making judgments about them: one where God exists and one where there is only nature.  Nature is typically defined as merely the expression of impersonal laws, and the 'impersonal' part is what then makes the situations different.  Under your God scenario, I don't think you think that man is 'only' the product of nature, if for no other reason that nature is the product of your god.

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

And all this God business, as you ardent science worshipers always claim, is a product of man's imagination, as there are no gods or God

Yes, I think gods are a product of man's imaginations.  And just like Daenerys Targaryen, Sauron, Dracula, Bugs Bunny, and other fictional characters, we can still talk about them and their qualities.  I don't worship science ardently, try addressing what I type instead of attempting to read my mind; some of your fellow believers think you should steer clear of accusations like that which are too bearing-false-witness-y.

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

You cannot have it both ways, no god, and no bad nature.

It's not both ways, it's the way things are.  You are overlooking that good and bad are subjective if there is only nature, nature provides no definitions of those concepts let alone physical laws to govern them, nor any way to clearly identify the difference between the two.  They are values, not facts.  For the common god hypotheses on the other hand objective good and bad are at the core, I'm not sure there is really that much left if you remove those from the major religions, although yes there are conceptions of gods where they don't care about morality, not sure if that's your god or not. 

If there is a creator supreme god then he could have done things differently, he could have effortlessly made it so that birth defects are impossible for instance.  But he didn't, yet he's still argued to be 'good' despite not preventing something bad that is clearly within his power.  It is possible he had reasons and/or definitions of 'good' we can't comprehend to justify allowing birth defects, but the point is that there is something there that seems incongruous and requires more explanation; if any person could cure all birth defects we wouldn't have trouble calling that extremely good, and we already legitimately question the morality of someone who has the power to stop something bad/evil from happening but do not.  Birth defects are also entirely explained by an apathetic or evil god, there's no conflict there.  None of this at least surface inconsistency exists with nature, birth defects are entirely consistent with everything else we know about biology, it would probably be more odd if there were no disadvantageous genetic mutations.  Not to mention other scientific disciplines; we live in the thinnest of films coating a speck in the universe, if we were teleported almost anywhere else in the universe we're quickly dead, that's how much nature seems to be concerned with anything about us, even if it had the capability of being 'concerned'.  We don't say that nature could have done it another way and not allowed birth defects to exist, because we don't usually attribute agency to nature.

If that doesn't illustrate the differences, let me try it simply.  In both scenarios whether a god exists and where a god doesn't exist, if someone loses their balance and falls off a roof no one says that gravity is evil.  If instead someone fell off the roof because a co-worker put a layer of grease over it as he wanted to see who, while sliding, would praise and reach out to him for rescue from the predicament that he himself put them in, then we might say that co-worker is evil or bad.

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

Mother nature is cruel and sadistic, as it mandates lifeforms to to kill and eat other life forms to survive. Is there anything more tyrannical than that? Is that the best mother nature can do?

It's not sadistic, that requires feelings and desires which nature does not have.  Nature is apathetic and most importantly can't do anything about it. Many gods are supposedly not apathetic, so millions of years of bloody evolution is just a further problem for the idea of a creator god who is 'good'.  Sorry you think you're in hell if there's no god, I'm certainly not.

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

 mother nature, can easily be blamed for all the things God is blamed for.

No it can't.  Typically we don't 'blame' mentally ill people when they commit crimes, they presumably had no choice and didn't know any better.  Neither does nature, and it's even more exempt since there's no evidence it 'knows' anything.

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