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darkmoonlady

If Jesus was a god his death wasn't a sacrifi

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DieChecker
10 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

If humans can recognize this dilemma, then why can't god? Or are we actually more compassionate, understanding, and forgiving than he?

Does an adult have better discretion of what is going on then a baby? God is the adult and we are the babies... 

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DieChecker
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

So gaining a conscious was a bad thing. Other than that we'd be just another animal. 

No, they were conscious. They had names and spoke using "I", and "me". They simply lacked knowledge, as I lack knowledge about how websites are programmed. 

When they gained that knowledge, they applied it to themselves and lost a lot of innocence. 

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XenoFish
5 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

No, they were conscious. They had names and spoke using "I", and "me". They simply lacked knowledge, as I lack knowledge about how websites are programmed. 

When they gained that knowledge, they applied it to themselves and lost a lot of innocence. 

I call my dog by name and she will bark, whine, or growl. So what's the difference. I could also tell her not to pee on the floor and she'd do it anyway. That was until she was house broken. So tell me, what's the difference.

The way it looks, "God" had set the whole thing up. Just another kid and the cookie jar scenario. 

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and then
3 hours ago, danydandan said:

It's not a question one can answer empirically. Is it?

If it was, no faith would be required.  The scientific method is a wonderful step forward for mankind.  OTOH, not a single benefit we've received has come without an "evil twin" that causes our species misery and fear.  Technology has become the focus of worship in modern life.  That tech is only as beneficial as our morality causes it to be.  When a person who demands empirical proofs for everything can show me an example of learning or knowledge that can change our nature and make us less flawed, grasping, prideful and brutal then I'll agree with you that science has the answers.  Until then, I'm going with the odds we've proven through history.   

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hetrodoxly

If you think Jesus on the cross is strange, I've seen the most bizarre thing this morning, not far from where i live in the middle of nowhere there's a small Anglo Saxon Church that i visit occasionally because it's beautiful, the church yard is full of wild flowers, it also has an ancient holy well and Yew tree that predates the church, to my surprise there were a group of people dressed as if they'd come from the time of Jesus and steam punk, they'd tied bit's of what looks like rag to the tree, one of them was banging a riddle drum and the others chanting something, i got closer and asked one on the outside what was going on, he said they were praising the spirit of the tree, he could see i was struggling  not to laugh i had to walk away.

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Rlyeh
2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Does an adult have better discretion of what is going on then a baby? God is the adult and we are the babies... 

You're a father right?  Do you put poison in the reach of your children?

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DieChecker
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I call my dog by name and she will bark, whine, or growl. So what's the difference. I could also tell her not to pee on the floor and she'd do it anyway. That was until she was house broken. So tell me, what's the difference.

The way it looks, "God" had set the whole thing up. Just another kid and the cookie jar scenario. 

How did you house break her? By teaching what was wrong. Does she know it is wrong to pee in the house now? She does. If she never had been trained, she'd see nothing wrong with peeing in the house.

If humans had never sinned, they wouldn't know what sin is.

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DieChecker
59 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

You're a father right?  Do you put poison in the reach of your children?

So we went from understanding compassion to poisoning people?

I'd not let the children decide where the poison goes. Which is what you are suggesting. That humans know better then God?

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

How did you house break her? By teaching what was wrong. Does she know it is wrong to pee in the house now? She does. If she never had been trained, she'd see nothing wrong with peeing in the house.

If humans had never sinned, they wouldn't know what sin is.

She got a treat every time she used the puppy pad. Positive reinforcement. God however seems to use negative reinforcement. At least that was what the writers decided when they penned the mythos. 

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Rlyeh
13 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

So we went from understanding compassion to poisoning people?

Hell your idea of love involves killing people.

 

13 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I'd not let the children decide where the poison goes. Which is what you are suggesting. That humans know better then God?

Do you put poison in the reach of your children?

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DieChecker
26 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

She got a treat every time she used the puppy pad. Positive reinforcement. God however seems to use negative reinforcement. At least that was what the writers decided when they penned the mythos. 

True.

But that is still people being ignorant and innocent before the Negative Reinforcement.

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DieChecker
11 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Hell your idea of love involves killing people.

Give examples.

Old Testament?... not my definition of love. I use the New Testament.

Quote

Do you put poison in the reach of your children

Actually I do. In the garage, if they climb up on stuff they can reach bug sprays and paints. And in the kitchen if they use tools to break into the sink cabinet they can find poisonous stuff. Or if they climb up on the counter and purposefully go into the medicine cabinet there is dangerous stuff.

What do you propose? I keep all chemicals in a steel shed out back?

You're being over critical. Or maybe not explaining yourself well.

 

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XenoFish
23 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

True.

But that is still people being ignorant and innocent before the Negative Reinforcement.

Isn't that the problem though. God's "will" is actual man's will. 

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DieChecker
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Isn't that the problem though. God's "will" is actual man's will. 

Perhaps, but that wasn't the question I was asked and answered.

Given it is impossible to "proove" God. It similarly is impossible to show if God is more correct, or if His will is our (communal) will.

Given the Bible, we can deduce things about God, but since it was put together by humans, from a human oral history (both OT and NT), it is not possible to determine exactly what Gods will for us is. That's why there is like 200 Christian denominations.

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Rlyeh
16 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Give examples.

Old Testament?... not my definition of love. I use the New Testament.

Isn't your god love?  He demands death.

 

16 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Actually I do. In the garage, if they climb up on stuff they can reach bug sprays and paints. And in the kitchen if they use tools to break into the sink cabinet they can find poisonous stuff. Or if they climb up on the counter and purposefully go into the medicine cabinet there is dangerous stuff.

I said within reach.  Do you deliberately place harmful chemicals within reach of your children?

 

16 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

What do you propose? I keep all chemicals in a steel shed out back?

You're being over critical. Or maybe not explaining yourself well.

Weren't you just saying God is like an adult and Adam and Eve were like babies?  It's pretty clear what I'm saying here.

An adult deliberately places poison within reach of children. The adult tells them not touch it, but knows they will anyway.  What does that say about the adult?  Does the adult know best?

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XenoFish
19 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Perhaps, but that wasn't the question I was asked and answered.

Given it is impossible to "proove" God. It similarly is impossible to show if God is more correct, or if His will is our (communal) will.

Given the Bible, we can deduce things about God, but since it was put together by humans, from a human oral history (both OT and NT), it is not possible to determine exactly what Gods will for us is. That's why there is like 200 Christian denominations.

Given the impossibility to prove god, then the whole apple story has no grounds. We are what we are, that's it. Sin being a human concept.

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Desertrat56
13 hours ago, GLCsector3295 said:

 I have no clue wtf you are on about, an I was shoving anything down anyones throat. let alone yours. grow up.

You were chastising, emotionally people who disagree with you and you were calling names.  That triggered my stuff about self centered religious sheeple who attack others based on their religious beliefs rather than have rational conversations.  My point is you have given as bad as anyone else and the others are practiced at it where you seem to be new to the idea that people don't always submit to any religious dogma just because someone else says it is true, which it isn't.

So, in a nut shell, if it's all you can fathom at the moment, don't call people rude names and keep your religious beliefs civil. And just because you perceive someone "trashing" you doesn't mean they are, it means they used some of your "trigger" words which evoked unresolved emotion based on past experience. 

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DieChecker
1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

Isn't your god love?  He demands death.

Examples please.

Quote

I said within reach.  Do you deliberately place harmful chemicals within reach of your children?

I place sugar within their reach, which if they eat too much they "shall surely die". And I tell them not to eat it. And when they do, they know they've done wrong and get punished. 

You mean temptations. Temptations within reach. Like with the forbidden fruit. Using "poison" is a appeal to emotion.

Quote

Weren't you just saying God is like an adult and Adam and Eve were like babies?  It's pretty clear what I'm saying here.

An adult deliberately places poison within reach of children. The adult tells them not touch it, but knows they will anyway.  What does that say about the adult?  Does the adult know best?

Yes. Did not all that humans are now alive not come from that failed temptation? If it was "poison", we'd none of us be here.

I'd still say God is the adult and you have the perspective of a infant, or maybe a puppy. All you see is a nipple being taken away, and Bam! you judge and start crying.

Edited by DieChecker

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DieChecker
36 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Given the impossibility to prove god, then the whole apple story has no grounds. We are what we are, that's it. Sin being a human concept.

True! Which is why needing proof to Believe is a losing system to follow. One either believes willingly, or one doesn't really Believe. One either believes in sin and trys to deal with it, or one believes there is no consequences. Belief is the only real variable, and facts generally don't change belief, except over very long spans of time. 

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XenoFish
6 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

True! Which is why needing proof to Believe is a losing system to follow. One either believes willingly, or one doesn't really Believe. One either believes in sin and trys to deal with it, or one believes there is no consequences. Belief is the only real variable, and facts generally don't change belief, except over very long spans of time. 

So let me get this straight. Are you really willing to accept that you are a screwed up, flawed, and doom to eternal punishment all because Jack and Jill ate the apple on the hill? That it took one dead Jewish zealot to wash away ages of sin, all because his daddy couldn't. Sin is really a religious concept, I think that most of us can naturally acknowledge cause and effect. I'm trying really hard to wrap my mind around why anyone would believe in any Abrahamic religion.

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DieChecker
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So let me get this straight. Are you really willing to accept that you are a screwed up, flawed, and doom to eternal punishment all because Jack and Jill ate the apple on the hill? That it took one dead Jewish zealot to wash away ages of sin, all because his daddy couldn't.

Yes...

And Jesus IS Daddy... in all the ways that really matter.

And since the zealot did wash away sin... I'm not automatically doomed. I'm automatically Saved.

Like a college class where the teacher says you start with an A and have to fail your way to an F.

Quote

Sin is really a religious concept, I think that most of us can naturally acknowledge cause and effect. I'm trying really hard to wrap my mind around why anyone would believe in any Abrahamic religion.

Sin is just another word for bad/wrong. Just another way of setting right and wrong. Every religion, society or organization does this.

I follow Christianity as the teachings of Jesus and Paul, mainly. Moses and Abraham hardly come into it, other then as background.

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Rlyeh
35 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Examples please.

I just gave you one, Yahweh demands death to forgive.  Your entire religion is founded on it.

 

35 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I place sugar within their reach, which if they eat too much they "shall surely die". And I tell them not to eat it. And when they do, they know they've done wrong and get punished. 

You can't give a straight answer can you?

 

Quote

You mean temptations. Temptations within reach. Like with the forbidden fruit. Using "poison" is a appeal to emotion.

Original sin.  What would you call it? 

 

Quote

Yes. Did not all that humans are now alive not come from that failed temptation? If it was "poison", we'd none of us be here.

For starters it never happened, secondly where does the story say we exist because of it?

 

Quote

I'd still say God is the adult and you have the perspective of a infant, or maybe a puppy. All you see is a nipple being taken away, and Bam! you judge and start crying.

If you were an adult like God, you'd be in prison.  All I see is someone trying to defend a morally bankrupt deity because it gives your life purpose, the same way a battered wife defending her abusive husband because she has nowhere else to go.

Edited by Rlyeh
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Rlyeh
9 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Like a college class where the teacher says you start with an A and have to fail your way to an F.

Are you really comparing punishment to academic grades? :rolleyes:

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XenoFish
20 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Yes...

And Jesus IS Daddy... in all the ways that really matter.

And since the zealot did wash away sin... I'm not automatically doomed. I'm automatically Saved.

That's just it. It is a story. It's like basing my whole existence on some fictional character from a poorly written novel. While I do not disagree with trying to be a better person, treating others fairly, and non-judgmentality. I'm okay with that. It's the whole idea of do as you are told are you'll suffer eternally. That it basically took god committing suicide (!?!) to fix what he messed up. That makes absolutely zero sense. I mean a being that can create and entire universe has trouble with one primate species on a speck of damp mud that rest on the arm of one insignificant galaxy. Where the life span of our entire species is nothing on the cosmic scale of things. It decided to incarnate and be murdered in order to right a wrong it created. I don't get it. And if we don't tow the line it will punish us forever....help me understand.

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Mellon Man
2 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

Original sin.  What would you call it? 

Orginal sin was a Manichean philosophy, turned Christian by Augustine of Hippo.

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