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darkmoonlady

If Jesus was a god his death wasn't a sacrifi

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Piney
11 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Jesus is not a historical person. Everything written about him is written long after his supposed death. No contemporary writers noticed him, if he existed.

 

He was a conflation of three separate people. None of them were crucified and only one was around during that time period. 

Jesus the Preacher was killed by a rock out of a Roman trebuchet. The wisdom attributes come from Jesus Ben Sirach. I forgot the details of the third one. 

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and then
1 hour ago, darkmoonlady said:

doesn't that make him dying on the cross meaningless?

It does, for all who choose not to believe.  It's just a choice.  We all make it, one way or another.  An interesting point from scripture is that when the last few years of human government on the earth come, (the Tribulation) there will be uncountable numbers who will believe and be willing to die for that belief.  I guess those alive at that time will have a chance to finally see things that were predicted coming true in every detail.  

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Piney
2 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

And if you even look at people like Moses then you can find the 10 commandments existing far earlier than him. The first civilizations that had writing (Babylon, Sumer, Egypt, etc) all have the 10 commandments. And Noah`s Ark too, although with Sumerians it was an underground vault that they put two of every animal in to protect them from a coming flood. The Bible has a lot of stuff taken from Egyptian Sun God worship in it too.

 

15 commandments, and the original Ark was a giant circular raft. 

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RabidMongoose
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

15 commandments, and the original Ark was a giant circular raft. 

Well, regardless of who is right about the number of commandments and type of Ark, you got my point.

The material in the Bible existed long before it or its characters.

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sci-nerd
5 minutes ago, Piney said:

He was a conflation of three separate people. None of them were crucified and only one was around during that time period. 

Jesus the Preacher was killed by a rock out of a Roman trebuchet. The wisdom attributes come from Jesus Ben Sirach. I forgot the details of the third one. 

If we have to get technical, we should use the real name: Yeshua :tu:

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Desertrat56
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

How can one man's death atone for the collective sins of humanity? Why couldn't god just fix it all from the beginning? Why did Jesus even have to be born and not just appear? The whole thing makes no sense. 

Right, and if it is important to god for us not to sin, what ever that means, then why are we able?  And don't say "god gave us free will" because that is not an answer, if we have free will then sin is irrelevant or non-existent.  An omnipotent being would not waste the time of making rules that would not be followed and then bother to punish anyone who didn't follow the rules.  There is no love in that.  It is like a parent saying don't eat the cookie and walking away then beating the hell out of the kid who ate the cookie whether he was in the room at the time the parent made the rule or not.

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Will Due
1 hour ago, darkmoonlady said:

More like a trick. 

 

Could be.

But probably not.

It would seem at least, if it is tricky, that the level of attention to discovering the truth about it all should be raised to a level a lot higher than normal. Leaving no stone unturned.

 

 

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sci-nerd
1 hour ago, darkmoonlady said:

If Jesus were a comic book character, knowing he was the son of God and immortal, doesn't that make him dying on the cross meaningless? He knew he couldn't really die. Whatever pain he experienced he chose to experience, as a god he is capable of healing himself and just getting off the cross. I'm a skeptical pagan so call me biased but this has bothered me. I don't believe in the Bible and don't see it as real but even as a concept it seems like a problem. His death is always framed by his believers as a sacrifice or that he died for the sins of others but him knowing he could not die or die and come back makes that not a death FOR anything. More like a trick. 

The conclusion is that "gospel Jesus" never existed. He is a concoction of ancient religions and astrology. The correct name is Yeshua btw...
There might have been a couple of people named Yeshua who resembled him, but none of them comes close to the gospel version.

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Will Due
8 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

if it is important to god for us not to sin, what ever that means, then why are we able?  

 

Why are we able to sin?

Everything has so thouroughly long ago, been turned on its head. The real question is why are we able to NOT sin? 

Isn't that what's at the heart of the life and teachings of Jesus? Not necessarily to live without sinning, but to wholeheartedly live with dedication to the doing of the Father's will. 

 

 

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Herr Falukorv
Just now, Will Due said:

 

Why are we able to sin?

 

What is a sin?

 

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Will Due
Just now, Herr Falukorv said:

What is a sin?

 

 

To knowingly and deliberately do the wrong thing.

 

 

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Herr Falukorv
Just now, Will Due said:

 

To knowingly and deliberately do the wrong thing.

 

 

What is wrong and what is right? who decide

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sci-nerd
Just now, Will Due said:

To knowingly and deliberately do the wrong thing.

So seeking knowledge is the wrong thing? Worthy of death?

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Desertrat56
3 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Why are we able to sin?

Everything has so thouroughly long ago, been turned on its head. The real question is why are we able to NOT sin? 

Isn't that what's at the heart of the life and teachings of Jesus? Not necessarily to live without sinning, but to wholeheartedly live with dedication to the doing of the Father's will. 

 

 

No, that is not at the heart of the teachings.  If you just use the teachings of the prophet Jesus, it is about tolerance, love, compassion, nothing about sin.

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Desertrat56
4 minutes ago, Herr Falukorv said:

What is a sin?

 

EXACTLY!

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Will Due
Just now, Herr Falukorv said:

What is wrong and what is right? who decide

 

You do.

If you know something is wrong to do, then deliberately do it anyway, that would be what a sin is.

 

 

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XenoFish
23 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

It is like a parent saying don't eat the cookie and walking away then beating the hell out of the kid who ate the cookie whether he was in the room at the time the parent made the rule or not.

I'd say it's like a parent telling a kid to not eat the cookies, then handing them the jar. 

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Desertrat56
Just now, XenoFish said:

I'd say it's like a parent telling a kid to not eat the cookies, then handing them the jar. 

Better analogy.  Thanks.

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Herr Falukorv
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

You do.

If you know something is wrong to do, then deliberately do it anyway, that would be what a sin is.

 

 

So if I know its wrong to let a woman in bikini walk by me without raping her Im sinning?
Because where I come from a woman in bikini is free to rape??

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XenoFish

The idea of sin is a great way to give someone an artificial guilt complex. Especially the idea of being born sinful and never good enough for God's love, that god had his own son killed all because you are a wretched human being. This is all due to someone eating a "magical fruit", god gave them the cookie jar. God is an idiot. 

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Will Due
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

nothing about sin.

 

You're right about that. 

What he taught was the way to live being wholeheartedly dedicated to the doing of the Father's will. 

That he made easy to do when he said (if you're interested to learn how to do it) "follow me" and you will see the way that it can be done.

 

 

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Will Due
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

God is an idiot. 

 

Probably not. But it might be true that it's all a bit tricky.

Besides, you're not somebody who's easily tricked to lay down in front of a good challenge are you?

 

 

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Desertrat56
29 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Could be.

But probably not.

It would seem at least, if it is tricky, that the level of attention to discovering the truth about it all should be raised to a level a lot higher than normal. Leaving no stone unturned.

 

 

Not a trick, a lie.

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Will Due
Just now, Desertrat56 said:

Not a trick, a lie.

 

Same thing. 

But you're not going to be tricked into believing a lie without thouroughly looking for the truth about it all are you?

In other words, you're not somebody who shrinks to the realization that the work involved in getting the job done is personally more demanding than you would like it to be are you?

 

 

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sci-nerd

Sin is an ancient Jewish invention. Anyone who believes it that today, is a pure idiot.

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