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darkmoonlady

If Jesus was a god his death wasn't a sacrifi

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Tatetopa
5 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

What gift? He bled blood which as someone who cannot die is not really any sacrifice. He felt a bit woozy? He died knowing he would just wake up three days later and ascend fully restored to heaven. So again how exactly is that a sacrifice on his part? A sacrifice of something usually means you lose something important.

I think you have to use the second part of the definition, from the Latin: sacred rite.  I think of sacrifice as something personal, but in this tradition, it seems to mean  not giving up something  (like Life) but performing a sacred rite, like offering the first of the Harvest.  Of coures, I may be wrong about that.

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danydandan
26 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Help me out here. Inverse square law, yes?  Gravity is a weak force, but there is a lot of mass.  isn't the amount of mass calculated for steady state, expansion, and contraction.  I think Einstein liked steady state that's why he threw the constant in there. 

Yes and no. 

We actually don't know why gravity does what it does. We can just predict it's affect on something. It appears universal but it may not be 

Inverse square law is quite outdated, still accurate for the majority of stuff, relatively is how people should think about gravity. I can give a simple explanation of how relatively predicts how gravity affects things, if you want. 

You'll need a towel or a bed sheet, an apple, a grape, a bowling ball and very dense ball of Osmium.

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third_eye

I wonder if I should give Mrs Betty Bowers a call... 

~

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Jodie.Lynne
4 hours ago, and then said:

I'll ask you the same question - do you believe God exists?

The evidence to date doesn't support the kind of god that any religions propose, so the answer is 'no, I do not believe god exists.'

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Jodie.Lynne
4 hours ago, and then said:

You folks can't get past the failings of other people who are as human as you are. 

No, it's "I can't get past the failings of a bronze age book."

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Phaeton80
7 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

What gift? He bled blood which as someone who cannot die is not really any sacrifice. He felt a bit woozy? He died knowing he would just wake up three days later and ascend fully restored to heaven. So again how exactly is that a sacrifice on his part? A sacrifice of something usually means you lose something important. He obviously didn't need blood, you said he chose to be human. He wasn't. Humans don't die and return 3 days later. Even if he allowed himself to be put through all that he experienced a violent death yes, but so what? It proves what kind of devotion to believers if you knew no matter what was done to you, you would be whole again AND leave all your followers behind. It just sounds like a trickster God. 


The key to your puzzle is rather obvious; Christ wasnt (a) God, he was a Messiah, ie. messenger of God.

Would God claim he could do nothing by himself but by leave of God?

Would God be enticed by Satan to gain the world (He, being part of 'the Trinity', Himself created) if only He would bow down to Satan (!!), an entity He Himself created?

Would God exclaim 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me'?

..And this is just the tip of the iceberg. the Bible is full of similar rather explicit verses directly contradicting the modern day popular christian tenet. The only way to believe Jesus = God is to ignore countless explicit verses to the contrary, and grasp unto a handful of implicit verses that would possibly confirm that conditioned disposition, if interpreted in a certain way. The term Son of God was used for other Messiahs as well, starting with Adam, Jacob / Israel, Solomon as well as Ephraim.

Modern day Christianity is the only Abrahamic religion which claims this groundshaking, never before prophesized concept; God entering His own creation through the birthcanal of a mortal woman to teach Man the Truth. It is an unprecedented, unheared of concept which is an illogical spike in the general pattern (starting with Abraham), is disavowed by the Jews and the Muslims, and can be traced back to certain councils evolving the Trinity concept hundreds of years after the Crucifixion.

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eight bits
7 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

Yet a deity knows they can't ever die. According to them he isn't dead now, he ascended to heaven. So how do they reconcile him as a being that apparently lives forever but being crucified makes their sin washed away? 

Taking that question at face value, looking at it from a "comparative religion" viewpoint (i.e. not a Christian apologist's), and keeping in mind (a) there are about 2 billion LIVING Christians, and so many different views of everything Christian (b) in an enterprise that's had 2000 years of different ideas come and go, and (c) whatever the "original" ideas were, the first 100 years' worth, they were erased from the historical record except for the few ideas that appealed to the bosses:

Your death is temporary, too.

Jesus doesn't rise from the dead because he's a god; he rises from the dead because he's a human being and all human beings eventually rise from the dead (except for the ones who won't die at all). What Jesus gets for being a god is that he completes the cycle of death-and-resurrection first (except for the ones that he or Elijah or the witch of Endor may have raised for proof of concept and beta testing).

Once raised, all human beings live forever after, although not everybody goes to heaven. Of those who do, the majority of living Christians (apostolic succession, Roman Catholics plus Eastern and other Orthodox) believe that you achieve theosis, which is that you become a god (or, to be precise, "godlike," but really, really close to deity). Jesus' mom currently enjoys that status according to most of those who believe it happens at all.

I think that's the answer to your question. If any death is a sacrifice in the English-language sense (voluntarily accepting avoidable suffering or loss), then Jesus' was, too. However, please note that English didn't exist until centuries after Christian dogma was codified (and the record cleansed of other views). Sacrifice is a Latinism: to make sacred.

The core meaning of phrases like "Jesus' sacrifice on the cross" is that his crucifixion was an event of religious significance, distinguished from the suffering of all the other people who died that way for purely secular reasons. For another example of the usage, the Eucharist (later called the "Lord's Supper," and other terms) is also referred to as a "sacrifice" even though there is no suffering involved at all in gnoshing on a biscuit and washing it down with some watered wine (or grape juice for some Protestants).

Hope that helps. This is a funny topic for the skepticism board, you'd probably have gotten better answers from uninhibited believers than from a heathen like me :)

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Pettytalk

8 bits gets the trophy, once again. But the competition was indeed scarce. It suffices to say that, superficially, the whole world of Christians is onboard with the sacrifice bit. And here is a link for those wanting to know more, superficially, about Jesus' supposed sacrifice. https://biblehub.com/topical/s/sacrifice.htm

However for those not starting or participating in this thread just to make it a repetition of a repetitive trend of previous threads for the bashing of Jesus and his Father, it cannot be said that it has not been said before, that the soul is immortal. Being immortal, and occupying a material body, a soul will never be subject to death. And since we all have a soul, why should we care what the body goes through, except from a perspective of pleasure and pain? The soul can easily endure all manner of good or evil.

Jesus never made a sacrifice, as death is not an option. However, he allowed others to inflict unjust pain on himself, but just to show how not to be an hypocrite. Like Socrates before him, he demonstrated that it's better to suffer injustice than to do injutice. In other words, he practiced what he preached.

Superficially again, those that will not pay their dues to the Maker and Creator of us and all the physical universe, can make out the reason why it's not a matter of washing the unjustness of certain unjust and ungreatful souls by understanding this parable, the one on the evil tenants.

3“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?

 

 

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lightly
14 hours ago, Herr Falukorv said:

What is wrong and what is right? who decide

I'll decide.   Strangling a baby is wrong.  Any argumement?   ;)

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lightly
12 hours ago, Dejarma said:

you haven't explained the use of the word 'reverse' in your statement!? what is the 'reverse' of my query?

If I may butt in.....contraction instead of expansion?

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Jon the frog
16 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

If Jesus was God he would have magicked himself off the cross.

Why would a God need to die for our sins? A God can do anything. He was a man, an extremely intelligent one, but still a man at the end of the day with some important insights into the nature of reality.

And the Romans put him to death.

He was the character in a story if we talk about the book.

Maybe if he ever existed, he was probably the chief of a group of extremist without the knowledge to make IED.

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danydandan
9 minutes ago, lightly said:

If I may butt in.....contraction instead of expansion?

The two of them would be better of reading up on Rodger Penrose.

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Tatetopa
8 hours ago, danydandan said:

You'll need a towel or a bed sheet, an apple, a grape, a bowling ball and very dense ball of Osmium.

OK, got most of it.  I'll let you know when I acquire the Osmium bowling ball.

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danydandan
6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

OK, got most of it.  I'll let you know when I acquire the Osmium bowling ball.

You probably won't be able to lift a bowling ball sized ball of Osmium. Get one the size if a marble. It represents a black hole. 

A bowling ball size of Osmium would weight 150kg. Give or take. 

Edited by danydandan
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Tatetopa
9 minutes ago, danydandan said:

You probably won't be able to lift a bowling ball sized ball of Osmium. Get one the size if a marble. It represents a black hole.

At 22.59 gm/cm3  wouldn't that osmium bowling ball weigh about 200 pounds?  I could get "The Mountain" to do it for me.  He likes picking up heavy things.

Looks like cost and production might be problems though. 

Maybe we need to turn this into a thought experiment.  You drive and I'll ride along.  If it gets too hairy, I'll jump out take a breather and try to catch up.

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Tatetopa
17 minutes ago, danydandan said:

A bowling ball size of Osmium would weight 150kg. Give or take. 

Another problem here.  I underestimated that.  I don't even know how big a bowling ball is.  Probably could google it.

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danydandan
29 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

At 22.59 gm/cm3  wouldn't that osmium bowling ball weigh about 200 pounds?  I could get "The Mountain" to do it for me.  He likes picking up heavy things.

Looks like cost and production might be problems though. 

Maybe we need to turn this into a thought experiment.  You drive and I'll ride along.  If it gets too hairy, I'll jump out take a breather and try to catch up.

I don't know I roughly did it out of my head. Bowling balls are.........ah who gives a poop.

Right so. Spacetime. 

The sheet represents space time, the balls represent different objects like Earth, Sun, Moon and Black Hole. 

You get four people to hold the sheet out vertically, level and taut. One person at each end. (For ease of explanation I'm just going to give one example.) Throw the 200 pound Osmium ball on the sheet, you will create a well on the one dimensional sheet. The same well is in all three other dimensions. Looks sort of like a cone. Now get the grape and try rolling it from one end of the sheet to the other not directly over the well but maybe just as the well starts. The curvature of the sheet (space time ) is gravity or represents the affects bof gravity. You will see the grape spiral down the well until it hits the Osmium ( black hole) as it tries to get to the other end. Basically the big ball (mass) will capture the grape as it moves into the well created by it's mass.

That's kinda it in a nut shell, I can go into more details if you wish. Now imagine that happening with angular momentum and all the other objects creating wells even the grape creates it's own well. All these distortion's are interacting with each other. Gets complicated.

Edited by danydandan
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danydandan
15 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Another problem here.  I underestimated that.  I don't even know how big a bowling ball is.  Probably could google it.

I could be wrong. Osmium is just a dense metal.

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Herr Falukorv
20 hours ago, pbarosso said:

this is why we have these debates, you dont even understand what sin is.

Ok... mr besserwisser,,, you claim you  do???
Then tell me what is sin??? 
And Why.. who define it and so on....

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Tatetopa
45 minutes ago, danydandan said:

I could be wrong. Osmium is just a dense metal.

Here we were sitting in the back of the class talking about osmium when we were supposed to be talking about sin and sacrifice.

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Orphalesion
17 hours ago, and then said:

Those statutes and rules were laid down for the descendants of Israel to teach them the character of God.  He was very harsh with those who stepped out of line, possibly because of their background following idols.  I really don't know.  What is clear is that Christ came to change all that and He said, Himself, "I make all things new".  Many Christians think of Paul as a kind of Moses character, delivering the message of the new covenant between God and man.  Once the Jews proved that life under the law and keeping it perfectly (which was required) was impossible for man, another way was provided that didn't require perfect adherence, only submission of their will and being dedicated to doing their best to have relationship with God through prayer and absorbing His word.  That's really all.  We will never be perfect in the flesh.  We must be willing to learn and do our best to follow His way.  THIS is where most people turn aside.  They want nothing and no one telling them how to live.  Remember that free will?  It must be a choice or it means nothing to have followers seeking to know Him.  He wants followers, not slaves.  

His crucifixion was about Him following the tradition in the Jewish covenant with God.  When they sinned (broke God's laws) they could bring a spotless lamb and sacrifice it in the temple to receive temporary reprieve.  The idea behind shedding blood was that blood was equivalent with life.  So when Christ allowed Himself to be crucified, He was making Himself that same kind of sacrifice for ALL who would believe.  And it wasn't temporary.  

First of all I respect your believes. I do not share them, but I respect them.

I do agree to some extend that Paulus was a "new Moses" but....in a negative way. I think if I look at the Gospels and then at the parts of the bible that are believed to be authored by Paulus, it almost seems like he tried to decide what is right and wrong when he had no divine authority to do so (as Jesus had according to the Bible)
 

It seems almost like Jesus created a new, less severe covenant, and the Paulus came in after Jesus had died and tried to shove Mosaic Law back into that new covenant. I believe Christianity might have been better without him,

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spartan max2
8 hours ago, lightly said:

I'll decide.   Strangling a baby is wrong.  Any argumement?   ;)

You believe that, as do I, based on your upbringing, personal experiences, culture, genetic temperate, and your current reality 

 

In medival times it was common for peasant women to leave a newborn baby alone in the woods to die. They would do this when they had too many children already and knew they wouldn't be able to take care of it. 

It that right or wrong? How do we decide if that is right or wrong ? 

Edited by spartan max2
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XenoFish
8 hours ago, lightly said:

I'll decide.   Strangling a baby is wrong.  Any argumement?   ;)

What if it was baby Hitler?

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Will do
4 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

You believe that, as do I, based on your upbringing, personal experiences, culture, genetic temperate, and your current reality 

 

In medival times it was common for pesant women to leave a newborn baby alone in the woods to die. They would do this when they had too many children already and knew they wouldn't be able to take care of it. 

It that right or wrong? How do we decide if that is right or wrong ? 

 

We don't. Or at least we shouldn't. 

Everyone decides what's right or wrong when they do it. If it's known by a person to be wrong, and then it's done anyway, well, it certainly wouldn't be right.

 

 

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spartan max2
14 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

We don't. Or at least we shouldn't. 

Everyone decides what's right or wrong when they do it. If it's known by a person to be wrong, and then it's done anyway, well, it certainly wouldn't be right.

 

 

I suppose thats how we all decide. But my point is it's relative.

We all have different ideas of what right is.

The only difference between you, me, and the person throwing a stone at a public stoning of a women who committed adultery is the circumstances we were raised in. The stone throwers believed they were right and justified because she committed a crime.

We see it as barbaric.

In the future people may see things we see as right as wrong.

 

For me this perspective gives me more humility and compassion. There is really not much difference between you and the bad guy commiting a crime. It just happens 

 

 

 

Edited by spartan max2

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