Faith?

[jmccr8]

Here is my Faith

jmccr8

[+DieChecker]

What? No George Micheal?

You gotta have faith...

 

[Mr Walker]

The first, specifically where there is no evidence or data available and a decision must be made in faith  Faith cannot exist or be constructed where we have knowledge. it is an answer  to any unknown question.

eg i have faith that life will be found on mars (I always had faith that  water would be found on mars but now that is has been, faith is not applicable or possible )

[Mr Walker]

On 07/07/2019 at 1:44 AM, danydandan said:

I think they are, I just think people don't explain what the mean correctly.

Just look at @Will Due last post, he should have said 'What my Faith means to me' rather than 'What Faith means to me'. 

The term is already defined, words are defined at a specific point in time. 

Defined by whom, and do you have agreement on that definition?

I didnt really like the options given because, for me, faith is more than any of those things, and a very specific mental construct.

But i followed the instructions and ticked the closest approximation of what i see as faith (which is much wider and more general construct than religious or spiritual faith)

Why should Will have said as you stated? He explained what  the word faith means to him.  It is his faith certainly but every individual has their own faith, even if it is faith in self

[Mr Walker]

On 07/07/2019 at 3:16 AM, Sherapy said:

Dan,  a question, why wouldn’t you just use the word trust to represent trust.

To me the aforementioned faith is the “hope” or wish that something or someone will pan out as verified when there is no evidence.

And trust for me, there is support with some kind of factual basis. 

For ex: I don’t have faith in myself hoping whatever I think or endeavor will pan out, I have trust in myself to know that I will win some and I will lose some, in other words  self efficacy. I wouldn’t even bother to audition to be a opera singer,, or try to get a football scholarship etc. etc.

trust is normally evidence based and based upon past experience.

Faith looks forward, is not evidence based, and is constructed with a greater motivational power than simply trust. Eg if my dad said he trusted me to do something, he  meant he believed i could do it and    that, based on past experience i could be trusted to do it.  it.

If he said "I have faith you can do this" he meant he knew that i could even though he had no evidence or past experience  to indicate that i could 

eg he trusted that i would get my licence first go, based on what he knew

He had faith i could water ski first go, even though there was no evidence that i could 

Faith motivates people more than trust  because it is more powerful.  I would work much harder to justify a person's faith in me than i would to justify a person's trust, although both would be important  to me.

[Mr Walker]

On 07/07/2019 at 5:08 PM, jmccr8 said:

Scratches Will off of the list for terraforming Mars for habitation.

jmccr8

I never realised there were mountains named Doubt on mars   

[Mr Walker]

On 07/07/2019 at 8:05 PM, XenoFish said:

Who needs faith when you are living on amphetamines?

However this clearly refers to religious faith.

As a person and a philosopher,  Rand had great faith in her self, her philosophies, and individualism and capitalism/ 

[Mr Walker]

On 07/07/2019 at 8:44 PM, DieChecker said:

Absolutely. It could go that way around also. 

And not just religious faith, but any kind of non-thinking unbacked trust.

Try to imagine the life of a human who has no faith in anything, including themselves.  

[Mr Walker]

On 10/07/2019 at 7:31 AM, DieChecker said:

Unless what is to be disappointed about happens after you die, and thus you can't know if you were wrong. But you would know if you were right.

If you have faith in this life, like the people who only pray, and do not seek doctors/medicine, then they might just as well just pass away. Since the same philosophy should mean God will provide food, money and shelter.

That was never the deal. Jesus told his Apostles to go out and not bring even sandals, but that was for those on mission, not the average believer. 

Having faith in God and your fate is fine, but that doesn't mean doing nothing to improve yourself. God helps those who first seek to help themselves.

All true But take my wife (no old jokes please )  

Given the truth in your post, she goes further.

Faith in god, and his provision for her, means that she never WORRIES about anything, from lack of money to illness.  Yes of course she does what she can to plan and prepare for the future (because of what you post) BUT she believes in her heart that whatever comes, god will protect, guide, help, and watch over her, and so far (she is 77 years old) she has been proven correct.  In part it is gods advice guidance and teachings which direct her life and mean that she is prepared  ie she  puts money aside, uses her talents wisely, is not profligate,  and does not spend money on material needs or alcohol etc. she has stayed fit and active until a stroke when she was 75, and all of this was in response to gods words which she reads and studies  every day She makes good use of doctors and other health professionals but in her mind god is her greatest protection and the ultimate arbiter of her fate. Everything is gods will and after  she has done all she can to follow his will, the rest is up to him  

Its a bit scary to me but so far it has worked out exceptionally well, so i cant argue with her. 

 

[Mr Walker]

On 10/07/2019 at 9:15 AM, XenoFish said:

Faith is just a word. Assign whatever emotional value to it ya want.

or

Faith is a word we assign to a specific construct and value known to human beings. 

[Mr Walker]

On 10/07/2019 at 9:21 AM, XenoFish said:

Faith is a hope and expectation that always leads to disappointment. There is nothing to put faith in, except false hope. Some like to give it a flowery meaning, I guess it tickles their neither regions to do that. 

Thats your experience which is unbelievably sad.

  it simply is not the experience of almost all human beings.

Faith is the cognitive therapy which allows humans to deal with what the y can see is the  reality of their existence.  

[Mr Walker]

On 10/07/2019 at 11:13 AM, XenoFish said:

Sorry for your loss. Ain't personal. I just want to be disembowled. Might put me in a better mood. 

sorry, but your accidental spelling error just made me happy. 

I just had this thought of someone removing a bowl from your body 

I thought "surely someone somewhere has used a similar error as a meme,"  but google kept correcting my attempt to search for disembowlment

[+DieChecker]

43 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Try to imagine the life of a human who has no faith in anything, including themselves.  

Might just as well lay down and starve to death.

Having faith in things that are known isn't bad. Having faith in things that are proven wrong is bad though. What is "proven" though varies from person to person. Though some things, like the Sun coming up, be very hard to have faith it could/might not happen. 

[+DieChecker]

32 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Quote

Faith is a hope and expectation that always leads to disappointment. 

Thats your experience which is unbelievably sad.

  it simply is not the experience of almost all human beings.

I'd tend to agree. It doesn't always lead to disappointment.

If we assume an afterlife, but completely different then any ideas we currently have, then I could see everyone having disappointment in the end.

Many times faith keeps people happy till the very end, and then after.

[+DieChecker]

48 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

All true But take my wife (no old jokes please )  

Given the truth in your post, she goes further.

Faith in god, and his provision for her, means that she never WORRIES about anything, from lack of money to illness.  Yes of course she does what she can to plan and prepare for the future (because of what you post) BUT she believes in her heart that whatever comes, god will protect, guide, help, and watch over her, and so far (she is 77 years old) she has been proven correct.  In part it is gods advice guidance and teachings which direct her life and mean that she is prepared  ie she  puts money aside, uses her talents wisely, is not profligate,  and does not spend money on material needs or alcohol etc. she has stayed fit and active until a stroke when she was 75, and all of this was in response to gods words which she reads and studies  every day She makes good use of doctors and other health professionals but in her mind god is her greatest protection and the ultimate arbiter of her fate. Everything is gods will and after  she has done all she can to follow his will, the rest is up to him  

Its a bit scary to me but so far it has worked out exceptionally well, so i cant argue with her. 

 

I live much that same way. I work, and make money, and plan for retirement and all. But, I don't lay awake at night worrying about bills. Even when I have to pay the mortgage a week late, I know it will be paid. That somehow it will be provided for. Now to just trust that it will is foolish, but to trust that if you need it, it will be there... is, IMHO, not.

I became a Christian at like 29, and was 35,000 dollars in debt. Trusting in prayer, and divine guidance got me out from under that in like 5 years. Even with a 30k a year job.

Giving your cares over to God/Jesus removes the stress of doing it on your own. And allows a person to deal with issues with a clear head and without fear being involved. Which allow for faster resolutions, and better resolutions.

Edited July 21, 2019 by DieChecker

[XenoFish]

14 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I became a Christian at like 29, and was 35,000 dollars in debt. Trusting in prayer, and divine guidance got me out from under that in like 5 years. Even with a 30k a year job.

Giving your cares over to God/Jesus removes the stress of doing it on your own. And allows a person to deal with issues with a clear head and without fear being involved. Which allow for faster resolutions, and better resolutions.

You know I could explain this don't you.

[+DieChecker]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

You know I could explain this don't you.

But, you also admit it works, right?

[XenoFish]

41 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

But, you also admit it works, right?

It does. I've admitted such before. It's not supernatural though. 

[+DieChecker]

12 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It does. I've admitted such before. It's not supernatural though. 

Yeah, but people who do believe it is supernatural, it works exactly the same. 

[XenoFish]

20 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Yeah, but people who do believe it is supernatural, it works exactly the same. 

It works because there are emotions bound with intention or desires (wishes). It's what I call a Magical Placebo effect. Which is also the reason I have taken a progressively less anti-religion approach. Because at this point, so long as no one is being harmed, I do not care.

[+Sherapy]

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I live much that same way. I work, and make money, and plan for retirement and all. But, I don't lay awake at night worrying about bills. Even when I have to pay the mortgage a week late, I know it will be paid. That somehow it will be provided for. Now to just trust that it will is foolish, but to trust that if you need it, it will be there... is, IMHO, not.

I became a Christian at like 29, and was 35,000 dollars in debt. Trusting in prayer, and divine guidance got me out from under that in like 5 years. Even with a 30k a year job.

Giving your cares over to God/Jesus removes the stress of doing it on your own. And allows a person to deal with issues with a clear head and without fear being involved. Which allow for faster resolutions, and better resolutions.

How did did you get out of debt, it has to be by putting a plan in place and sticking to it. 

I can see the coping aspect for the emotional aspect, it sounds like the prayer addresses the fear, believing in Jesus gives you a support system, the sense that someone is pulling the universal strings giving you the sense things will work out, and the optimism to hope that things will get better, but what exactly is the divine guidance? 

 

Is it not living beyond your means? Perhaps, filing for bankruptcy, and staring over, getting a second job, tightening up and sticking to a budget, only buying if you have the money, not exploiting the credit cards, saying no to the kids, buying a house to invest in the equity, going to school to further yourself?  

These are all practical solutions, applicable to anyone. 

These are rhetorical, I am not asking for personal information, just wondering how divine guidance is working?

I would like to share the Agnostics way too, not that it is better. 

 I am a saver, always have been, starting out in our many mouths to feed days it would take me along time to save up 5 grand, then dammit along would come some major expense and wipe out my stash, first time it happened it was depressing, the thought of how long it took, how long it would be to rebuild the savings.

I am big on allowing myself my emotional state, in doing so It has given me a resiliency which is really just confidence in myself, to pick myself up and push through, the Psychologists call it self efficacy. Basically, I say my life experiences created an opportunity to build confidence in our own competency, not as a way for me to avoid the unpleasant and undesirables but a way to deal with them. Learning from experiences has its own wisdom. 

I am also an optimist (surprising side effect of a horrible childhood and facing my life for what it is)  things do get better, more than they don’t.

My coping strategy is not fancy, no praying, no Jesus bestie, just the dawning realization that, hey wait a minute, Wisdom is a common epiphany born of life experience, not exclusive to me, and is really just a matter of time in the course of living, and some situations offer a fast track to life’s common epiphanies.  

 

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

trust is normally evidence based and based upon past experience.

Faith looks forward, is not evidence based, and is constructed with a greater motivational power than simply trust. Eg if my dad said he trusted me to do something, he  meant he believed i could do it and    that, based on past experience i could be trusted to do it.  it.

If he said "I have faith you can do this" he meant he knew that i could even though he had no evidence or past experience  to indicate that i could 

eg he trusted that i would get my licence first go, based on what he knew

He had faith i could water ski first go, even though there was no evidence that i could 

Faith motivates people more than trust  because it is more powerful.  I would work much harder to justify a person's faith in me than i would to justify a person's trust, although both would be important  to me.

 

Of course, your dad knew you could get up on the skis eventually anyone will with enough practice. This is what it means to trust your child, we call it implicit.

Implicit trust is all encompassing, based on a child’s history, it is not limited. It is warranted in a big picture way.

Remember, we see their strengths and how they push through their struggles and have observed and guided them through it all. We know how to give feedback in a way that addresses both, we know what sticks and what hasn’t. 

Of course, your dad knew you could pass your driving test, you grew up in a time not unlike the rest of us that we were all driving long before the actual test. I was driving at 12, my uncles and grandpa taught me, 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Sherapy

[Habitat]

16 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Who needs faith when you are living on amphetamines?

Ayn Rand a "speed" addict, never knew that, Not that I've delved into her life, but she was a "darling" of right-wing conservatism in recent times. A pity that she wasn't exactly living her professed philosophy of "never faking anything". 

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Might just as well lay down and starve to death.

Having faith in things that are known isn't bad. Having faith in things that are proven wrong is bad though. What is "proven" though varies from person to person. Though some things, like the Sun coming up, be very hard to have faith it could/might not happen. 

I agree that we cannot have faith in things which are proven to be either right or wrong, and that the level of proof required varies from  person to person

While there is a very high probability that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, and that we will be alive to see it, there is no proof that this will occur.  Thus it requires faith to believe it  

 

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

 

Of course, your dad knew you could get up on the skis eventually anyone will with enough practice. This is what it means to trust your child, we call it implicit.

Implicit trust is all encompassing, based on a child’s history, it is not limited. It is warranted in a big picture way.

Remember, we see their strengths and how they push through their struggles and have observed and guided them through it all. We know how to give feedback in a way that addresses both, we know what sticks and what hasn’t. 

Of course, your dad knew you could pass your driving test, you grew up in a time not unlike the rest of us that we were all driving long before the actual test. I was driving at 12, my uncles and grandpa taught me, 

 

 

Well yes Thats what i said.  He had trust i would pass the driving test,  for the  very reasons you outline

However he had faith that i would get up on skis the first time i tried it 

It would have been trust if he had evidences to support that trust. 

You earn trust, but faith is given freely. 

It is harder to give/have faith in another, than to trust them,  but more powerful because of that 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Mr Walker