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and then

Turkey chooses S-400 over NATO

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Manwon Lender
On 7/13/2019 at 8:34 AM, and then said:

https://www.jns.org/turkey-receives-s-400-missile-defense-system-in-defiance-of-us-warnings/  

So, the die is cast for sure.  Next stop, sanctions, and outrage against Israel, no doubt ;) 

From the piece:

“Turkey will no longer be able to receive F-35 stealth jets and Turkish companies removed from the F-35 supply chain will lose $12 billion of revenue. Also, the United States is likely to impose CAATSA sanctions against Turkey, which will further undermine U.S.-Turkish trade and defense cooperation,”

 

Do you think that maybe Turkeys decision to by the S-400 was because we would not sell them the Patriot Missile System.

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The Truman show
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Do you think that maybe Turkeys decision to by the S-400 was because we would not sell them the Patriot Missile System.

Really don't think that Erdogan has been hard done by or left without an NATO complaint system alternative. There Italian/French consortium also offered Turkey the SAMPT system which Turkey turned down and then America under Trump offered the Patriot system again only at half price this time. Again turned down.

I think its safe to say that Erdogan never had any intention to purchase anything but the Russian S-400 complex to appease his new best friend.

I think its also worth mentioning that Turkey is massing its troops as we speak on the Northen Syrian border ready to invade American allies Kurdish controlled territory that is hosting American soldiers. Turkey wants to push America outta the area and it can't very well do it with a American weapon system like the patriot.  

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Manwon Lender
1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

Really don't think that Erdogan has been hard done by or left without an NATO complaint system alternative. There Italian/French consortium also offered Turkey the SAMPT system which Turkey turned down and then America under Trump offered the Patriot system again only at half price this time. Again turned down.

I think its safe to say that Erdogan never had any intention to purchase anything but the Russian S-400 complex to appease his new best friend.

I think its also worth mentioning that Turkey is massing its troops as we speak on the Northen Syrian border ready to invade American allies Kurdish controlled territory that is hosting American soldiers. Turkey wants to push America outta the area and it can't very well do it with a American weapon system like the patriot.  

Speaking as someone who has fought in the Middle East, with Isis defeated there is really no good reason our soldiers or our allies should be there. I think it time to get our people out of the line of fire, they have certainly done enough.

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The Truman show
5 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Speaking as someone who has fought in the Middle East, with Isis defeated there is really no good reason our soldiers or our allies should be there. I think it time to get our people out of the line of fire, they have certainly done enough.

Well i bet you have some interesting stories to tell. Whether its time or not that decision shouldn't be up to the very people that funded and supplied ISIS (insert Turkey) to remove U.S. forces. Lets not forget that the brunt of the fighting to defeat ISIS was done by the Kurds. I don't think it right that they should get slaughtered by Turkey for their troubles now that ISIS is destroyed. Helluva thank you!

Edited by Captain Risky
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Manwon Lender
10 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Well i bet you have some interesting stories to tell. Whether its time or not that decision shouldn't be up to the very people that funded and supplied ISIS (insert Turkey) to remove U.S. forces. Lets not forget that the brunt of the fighting to defeat ISIS was done by the Kurds. I don't think it right that they should get slaughtered by Turkey for their troubles now that ISIS is destroyed. Helluva thank you!

I agree we can't leave the Kurds, we would have evacuate them from the area also. No the decision should be up to our Commander in Chief. However, he hasn't had a major concern for soldiers since he took office, his major concern has been political. As for stories I don't have any, because I am certainly no one important.

 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Habitat

Is this S-400 a superior weapon, or are the Russians superior salesmen ?

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Manwon Lender
8 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Is this S-400 a superior weapon, or are the Russians superior salesmen ?

It is rated as one of the best systems around, however it's unclear how far the ratings carry it.

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.AKUMA.
54 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Really don't think that Erdogan has been hard done by or left without an NATO complaint system alternative. There Italian/French consortium also offered Turkey the SAMPT system which Turkey turned down and then America under Trump offered the Patriot system again only at half price this time. Again turned down.

I think its safe to say that Erdogan never had any intention to purchase anything but the Russian S-400 complex to appease his new best friend.

I think its also worth mentioning that Turkey is massing its troops as we speak on the Northen Syrian border ready to invade American allies Kurdish controlled territory that is hosting American soldiers. Turkey wants to push America outta the area and it can't very well do it with a American weapon system like the patriot.  

Turkey had requested transfer of technology as a requirment to help develop their own defence industry and to in time move away from weapon imports, only Russia offered it, atleast partially.

24 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Is this S-400 a superior weapon, or are the Russians superior salesmen ?

Perhaps the best Air defence system in the world?

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Habitat
15 minutes ago, .AKUMA. said:

Perhaps the best Air defence system in the world?

What has it shot down so far ?

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and then
3 hours ago, Habitat said:

What has it shot down so far ?

To hear the Russians and Syrians talk it up, it has intercepted nearly every missile that Israel has launched into Syria for the past year or so.  The odd thing is that all the targets they fired at get obliterated anyway.  Funny, innit?  IIRC, there was a Russian manned S400 in Tehran while the ADIR took a leisurely cruise overhead snapping photos last year.  

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Desertrat56
On 7/12/2019 at 5:38 PM, Captain Risky said:

...well that all depends on Trump. Considering Trump's business dealings inTurkey and just how compromised and indebted Flynn was to Turkey i get the distinct impression that Trump will trivialise the sanctions and give another dictator anther get outta jail card. 

I actually expected Trump to pull out of NATO since he has pulled out of other G8 organizations.

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The Truman show
4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I actually expected Trump to pull out of NATO since he has pulled out of other G8 organizations.

I’m sure Trump would like to leave NATO but the reality and American deep state won’t allow him. He’ll be threatened Germany and most other NATO countrys. Well his Trumps big chance to remove Turkey for not pulling its weight. 

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.AKUMA.
8 hours ago, and then said:

To hear the Russians and Syrians talk it up, it has intercepted nearly every missile that Israel has launched into Syria for the past year or so.  The odd thing is that all the targets they fired at get obliterated anyway.  Funny, innit?  IIRC, there was a Russian manned S400 in Tehran while the ADIR took a leisurely cruise overhead snapping photos last year.  

You have completely fabricated that story, what Russian manned S400 in Tehran? are you referring to the Alleged Iranian S300 clones?

The only weapons systems intercepting missles into syria are dated S300 variants.

Edited by .AKUMA.

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and then
4 minutes ago, .AKUMA. said:

You have completely fabricated that story, what Russian manned S400 in Tehran? are you referring to the Alleged Iranian S300 clones?

The only weapons systems intercepting missles into syria are dated S300 variants.

Two points... IIRC stands for IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.  Second, apparently I did misremember and it was only the S300 "giant killer" system they had online at the time.  Not a clone.  The actual S-300.  Try not to be a jerk, huh?

https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/437509/Russia-ready-to-deliver-S-400-to-Iran-no-request-made-yet

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.AKUMA.
11 minutes ago, and then said:

Two points... IIRC stands for IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.  Second, apparently I did misremember and it was only the S300 "giant killer" system they had online at the time.  Not a clone.  The actual S-300.  Try not to be a jerk, huh?

https://www.tehrantimes.com/news/437509/Russia-ready-to-deliver-S-400-to-Iran-no-request-made-yet

My apologies i meant no disrespect, i can be a little blunt at times, my guess is your are referring to the F35 fly over? This one is abit tricky, the F35 radar signature is about the size of a golf ball, is the s300 even advanced enough to detect Stealth jets of this caliber? that is questionable.

but saying that, even the sources you are perhaps using also mention that there is speculation regarding Russia's compliance in allowing these jets to penetrate Iranian airspace.

Edited by .AKUMA.
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Earl.Of.Trumps
17 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Really don't think that Erdogan has been hard done by or left without an NATO complaint system alternative. There Italian/French consortium also offered Turkey the SAMPT system which Turkey turned down and then America under Trump offered the Patriot system again only at half price this time. Again turned down.

I think its safe to say that Erdogan never had any intention to purchase anything but the Russian S-400 complex to appease his new best friend.

I think its also worth mentioning that Turkey is massing its troops as we speak on the Northen Syrian border ready to invade American allies Kurdish controlled territory that is hosting American soldiers. Turkey wants to push America outta the area and it can't very well do it with a American weapon system like the patriot.  

Good points, Risky.

I think they bought the S-400 because it is the best SAM in the world. excellent record.
Remember, it was those Ruskies that took a U-2 spy plane flown by Gary Powers at 72,000 feet back in the sixties. That *shocked* our military. The only reason why we knew about it was because Powers lived and was captured and paraded on Russian TV. You can't take it away from the Russians they have the best.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
17 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Speaking as someone who has fought in the Middle East, with Isis defeated there is really no good reason our soldiers or our allies should be there. I think it time to get our people out of the line of fire, they have certainly done enough.

agreed. makes one wonder, huh? 

And thanks for your service

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Earl.Of.Trumps
10 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I actually expected Trump to pull out of NATO since he has pulled out of other G8 organizations.

I wish NATO would just go away. It's days of usefulness are long over. It's a big money pit. European nations have the entire EU now to take that role.

And what the hell is anyone expecting Russia to do these days, roll tanks into Spain, for gods sake? the USSR is DEAD

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps

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odas
On 15/07/2019 at 5:45 AM, Manwon Lender said:

I agree we can't leave the Kurds, we would have evacuate them from the area also. No the decision should be up to our Commander in Chief. However, he hasn't had a major concern for soldiers since he took office, his major concern has been political. As for stories I don't have any, because I am certainly no one important.

 

You are more important then your comander in Chief.

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RoofGardener
5 minutes ago, aztek said:

India Says Russia's Missiles Don't Work (And Wants to Buy Israeli Ones Instead)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/india-says-russias-missiles-dont-080000234.html

Meh... I dunno.. that seems unlikely. 

An Indian Mig-21 was shot down by a Pakistani F-16 using an amraam missile.

Well, the Mig-21 is a rather dated aircraft.. it's design dates back to the late 1950's/early 1960's. The F-16 was designed 15 years later, and has been continously upgraded. 

I think it is a bit silly to blame the failure of the Mig-21 purely on its missiles. 

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aztek
4 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Meh... I dunno.. that seems unlikely. 

An Indian Mig-21 was shot down by a Pakistani F-16 using an amraam missile.

Well, the Mig-21 is a rather dated aircraft.. it's design dates back to the late 1950's/early 1960's. The F-16 was designed 15 years later, and has been continously upgraded. 

I think it is a bit silly to blame the failure of the Mig-21 purely on its missiles. 

plane maybe over  50 years old, but it has updated missiles, they constantly update them same as they update avionics, that particular mig used r77 missile that was put into production in early 2000s.  india says those missiles fall short of advertised range.

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RoofGardener
10 hours ago, aztek said:

plane maybe over  50 years old, but it has updated missiles, they constantly update them same as they update avionics, that particular mig used r77 missile that was put into production in early 2000s.  india says those missiles fall short of advertised range.

Well.. perhaps... but bear in mind that missiles only tend to hit about 30% of the time (depending on the breaks). 

I'm not convinced by this Indian newspaper report. 

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Black Red Devil
On 7/16/2019 at 12:59 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I wish NATO would just go away. It's days of usefulness are long over. It's a big money pit. European nations have the entire EU now to take that role.

And what the hell is anyone expecting Russia to do these days, roll tanks into Spain, for gods sake? the USSR is DEAD

That's just silly Trump rhetoric you've bought into.  The US makes a fortune on arms sales and is the biggest weapon producing machine, by far, in the world.  It has all interests in keeping the world on constant military alert and, thanks also to NATO bases, it can deploy it's Naval and Aerial Fleets all over the world in no time, maintaining strategic power and influence. 

Imagine the additional costs if ships and planes had to travel thousands of kilometers extra to troubled hot spots that interfere with American interests?

Edited by Black Red Devil
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Black Red Devil

Erdogan isn't choosing sides, or rather, isn't choosing between Russia and NATO.  His intentions have always been orientated towards the Middle East, hence the reason he isn't a big friend of Saudi Arabia who, despite being both majority Sunni countries, sees as a rival power in the region.  He knows he can play the devils advocate with both the US and Russia because of the strategic position of Turkey and the truth is he aims higher than being a subordinate ally of one of the superpowers.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/erdogan-dreams-of-recreating-ottoman-empire-assads-adviser/

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