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Turkey chooses S-400 over NATO

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The Truman show
On 7/17/2019 at 5:28 AM, RoofGardener said:

Meh... I dunno.. that seems unlikely. 

An Indian Mig-21 was shot down by a Pakistani F-16 using an amraam missile.

Well, the Mig-21 is a rather dated aircraft.. it's design dates back to the late 1950's/early 1960's. The F-16 was designed 15 years later, and has been continously upgraded. 

I think it is a bit silly to blame the failure of the Mig-21 purely on its missiles. 

I agree. IMO training and tactics are just as important if not more than planes. Pakistan has for a long time operated American F-16's, trained with other F-16 operators while India has predominately used Russian planes. I'd say that American tactics and planes are better and the recent Pakistan-Indian run-in is proof of that. 

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The Truman show

I just wanna say that the Indian airforce must have rocks in their collective heads to confront an adversary with the worst of their fighter planes. Best foot forward and all that. India has top of the range Russian Su-27/30 and French fighters M-2000's why would they plan an air campaign with 50 year old planes. 

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The Truman show
2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Erdogan isn't choosing sides, or rather, isn't choosing between Russia and NATO.  His intentions have always been orientated towards the Middle East, hence the reason he isn't a big friend of Saudi Arabia who, despite being both majority Sunni countries, sees as a rival power in the region.  He knows he can play the devils advocate with both the US and Russia because of the strategic position of Turkey and the truth is he aims higher than being a subordinate ally of one of the superpowers.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/erdogan-dreams-of-recreating-ottoman-empire-assads-adviser/

I used to think like you and then i started to add more and more variables into the Erdogan equation and nothing really added up, so my fall back position on Erdogan is that he see's himself as a foundational figure for a new Turkish nation, much like Ataturk. A Turkish nation with its own destiny and not beholden to anyone. A nuclear power with its eye turned towards uniting the Turkic nations to the East. Making him a natural enemy of Russia, China, America, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Europe and India. Erdogan and the rest are crazy if they think the above mentioned countries are going to give him a free ticket in the big game. Turkey is ripe to be Yugoslavianed. Cut into smaller pieces and tossed away. 

I predict in 5-10 years there will be a civil war in Turkey. 

Edited by Captain Risky
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Black Red Devil
15 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I used to think like you and then i started to add more and more variables into the Erdogan equation and nothing really added up, so my fall back position on Erdogan is that he see's himself as a foundational figure for a new Turkish nation, much like Ataturk. A Turkish nation with its own destiny and not beholden to anyone. A nuclear power with its eye turned towards uniting the Turkic nations to the East. Making him a natural enemy of Russia, China, America, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Europe and India. Erdogan and the rest are crazy if they think the above mentioned countries are going to give him a free ticket in the big game. Turkey is ripe to be Yugoslavianed. Cut into smaller pieces and tossed away. 

I predict in 5-10 years there will be a civil war in Turkey. 

Yeah I see your point and agree.  What Erdogan may want is easier said (or thought of) than done.  A Middle Eastern Union aka the EU would have immense world political power but unfortunately there are too many feudal, regional and religious impediments.  Also racially, Arabs, Turks and Persian don't get along, although neither did French and Germans or British etc. on the other hand.  The Russians would never relinquish control over Kazakhstan. It would definitely be a hard achievement but above all Erdogan's biggest challenge are internal because a high percentage of Turks are Secular and believe in western principles. 

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Manwon Lender
40 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Yeah I see your point and agree.  What Erdogan may want is easier said (or thought of) than done.  A Middle Eastern Union aka the EU would have immense world political power but unfortunately there are too many feudal, regional and religious impediments.  Also racially, Arabs, Turks and Persian don't get along, although neither did French and Germans or British etc. on the other hand.  The Russians would never relinquish control over Kazakhstan. It would definitely be a hard achievement but above all Erdogan's biggest challenge are internal because a high percentage of Turks are Secular and believe in western principles. 

I totally agree the Middle East will never be able to form a Middle Easten Union like the EU. There are far to many radicals that want complete control, not to just have a voice. This is the major difference between the EU and the Middle Eastern nations.

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

I totally agree the Middle East will never be able to form a Middle Easten Union like the EU. There are far to many radicals that want complete control, not to just have a voice. This is the major difference between the EU and the Middle Eastern nations.

There IS a "Middle Eastern Union".. it's called the Arab League. 

No, seriously. Stop laughing. 

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Phaeton80
On 13-7-2019 at 1:34 AM, and then said:

https://www.jns.org/turkey-receives-s-400-missile-defense-system-in-defiance-of-us-warnings/  

So, the die is cast for sure.  Next stop, sanctions, and outrage against Israel, no doubt ;) 

From the piece:

“Turkey will no longer be able to receive F-35 stealth jets and Turkish companies removed from the F-35 supply chain will lose $12 billion of revenue. Also, the United States is likely to impose CAATSA sanctions against Turkey, which will further undermine U.S.-Turkish trade and defense cooperation,”

 


Ugh, the unadulterated misplaced arrogance.. Squeaking in joy of coming sanctions (yet again) - damaging the Turkish public first and foremost - because a nation decided to buy a product from the competition.. only to continue to trivialize the anti- American, unconstitutional control of a foreign nation over the American government, against the interests of the US public (the enemy within no one is allowed to criticize).

Gddmn what a joy it will be when people like you start to realize where all this is headed.

 

Quote

S-400 Ultimate Shoot-Down

The furious reaction in Washington to Turkey’s receipt of the Russian S-400 air defence system is motivated by several factors – all of which spell a heavy blow to US strategic interests.
After two years of American bullying and threats, Turkey has finally gone ahead and taken delivery of the S-400 system this week. The stunned reaction in Washington reflects disbelief that Ankara would shrug off US threats of sanctions over the contract with Russia, first signed in 2017.

So, first off, that is a blow to America’s prestige and presumed power to make lesser nations buckle under its domineering demands. Despite lots of huffing and puffing from Washington, Turkey has ignored the US dictates to cancel the Russian air defence purchase.

The way is now open for other countries to follow Turkey’s lead in ordering the Russian defence system. S-400 deals are reportedly being lined up for India and others who will be encouraged by Turkey’s defiance of Washington’s reproaches.

Another factor is the huge long-term commercial loss for the Pentagon and the US military-industrial complex.

President Trump confirmed this week that the US would not be selling Turkey over 100 units of the stealth F-35 fighter jet as a result of the S-400 deal.

Turkey had orders for the advanced American fighter jet which have now been cancelled by Washington as a “penalty” for purchasing the S-400. At a sale price of around $100 million for each jet, that amounts to upwards of $10 billion in lost revenue for manufacturer Lockheed Martin.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/51929.htm


The F35 is a ridiculous, overrated, extremely hyped product no nation outside of the USA should acquire, unless it wants to declare all out serfdom to thesame nation. Being penalised for not buying such a product is ab so lutely de- ranged, but completely in line with Trumpian M.O., running the States like a corporation.

And yes, I am aware my own nation did acquire this hardware. Thesame goes for them, they will regret that decision.

Edited by Phaeton80

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Cookie Monster
10 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

I just wanna say that the Indian airforce must have rocks in their collective heads to confront an adversary with the worst of their fighter planes. Best foot forward and all that. India has top of the range Russian Su-27/30 and French fighters M-2000's why would they plan an air campaign with 50 year old planes. 

Or better missiles.

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The Truman show
6 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Or better missiles.

I don't think its just a case of better missiles. The aircraft is 50 years old and as launch pad to fire missiles, okay sure it could do that but its ability to engage with radar and other passive sensors is suspect. Range and flight restrictions like fuel/range, speed and altitude ceilings shouldn't be overlooked. 

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Sir Smoke aLot

Turkey is member of NATO. Turkey is also sovereign state.

When they buy, for example, drones from the USA they get only the machines and training for operators. In case of drone malfunction, damage or anything which renders it inoperable... Drone has to be sent to US facilities for repairs. More often Turkey has to wait for months (if not more) to get their equipment (which they payed for) back.

Turkey officials have stated this as in obstacle, great obstacle and it is one of the reasons why they chose S-400. 

When Saudis buy weapons from USA they also build facilities in Saudi Arabia so that technical support is near. Regardless of Turkey having (or had) many joined development projects with USA and also with Israel, it never got the level of support which Saudis have.

However one looks at this, Turkey has freedom of choice when it comes to what they buy and from who they buy it. Regardless of everything else no one should force nations to obey certain rules especially not monopolistic ones. Short sighted Trump administration will eventually understand this simple fact. Either sovereignty for all, without special rules or it's time to destroy and slowly forget concept of nations. Decision has to be made.

 

 

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RoofGardener

I don't really see the problem. Turkey can - as Sir Smoke a Lot has pointed out - buy anything they want. It means that they won't be able to have the F-35's, but that is their choice. They can always buy Mig-31's instead. They're not QUITE as good as an F-35, but they're not bad either !

Edited by RoofGardener
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The Truman show
5 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Turkey is member of NATO. Turkey is also sovereign state.

When they buy, for example, drones from the USA they get only the machines and training for operators. In case of drone malfunction, damage or anything which renders it inoperable... Drone has to be sent to US facilities for repairs. More often Turkey has to wait for months (if not more) to get their equipment (which they payed for) back.

Turkey officials have stated this as in obstacle, great obstacle and it is one of the reasons why they chose S-400. 

When Saudis buy weapons from USA they also build facilities in Saudi Arabia so that technical support is near. Regardless of Turkey having (or had) many joined development projects with USA and also with Israel, it never got the level of support which Saudis have.

However one looks at this, Turkey has freedom of choice when it comes to what they buy and from who they buy it. Regardless of everything else no one should force nations to obey certain rules especially not monopolistic ones. Short sighted Trump administration will eventually understand this simple fact. Either sovereignty for all, without special rules or it's time to destroy and slowly forget concept of nations. Decision has to be made.

 

 

America doesn’t sell drones to Turkey. The Turks have their own independent policy of targeting American allies in Syria and Northern Iraq. They pay lip service to the NATO alliance. The F-35 is just a continuation of deeper issues. Mainly that Turkey is jumping ship. Looking for an excuse to leave America’s orbit.

America and it’s allies are not dumb. Europe will not sell to a Turkey that will more than likely trade western tech for high end Russian and Chinese weapons. 

The west needs to cut Turkey loose.

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Jon the frog
On 7/12/2019 at 8:00 PM, Captain Risky said:

and more than likely a kill switch to drop them outta the air if and when America believe they are working against American interests. 

Exactly !  so you are hand tied with camera and microphone on you sniffing every moves.

Edited by Jon the frog
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and then
On 7/15/2019 at 6:32 PM, .AKUMA. said:

also mention that there is speculation regarding Russia's compliance in allowing these jets to penetrate Iranian airspace.

This is an unknown, I agree.  With Russia, one can never really be sure.  Putin is working both sides of the street looking for the best way to benefit his own country.  I believe that once he decides, neither Iran nor Israel will be total beneficiaries of his choice.  

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and then
8 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Either sovereignty for all, without special rules or it's time to destroy and slowly forget concept of nations.

Can you explain how you tie those two pieces together?  The special restrictions placed on protected, advanced military tech has been around for as long as such protections have been available.  Nations that do business for them are not kept in the dark over that aspect of a deal.  They pay a lower price for the models with less capability.  They have no inherent right to all the tech just because they purchase an aircraft or a few units of a weapon system. 

As to "slowly forgetting the concept of nations".  I assume you mean releasing the sovereignty of individual nations to some higher authority to be "managed" for the greater good?  Who chooses?  Surely not the bad old USA so who would you prefer?  Naming some new coalition like a variant of the EU?  No offense but Europe is hardly a trustworthy guarantor of long-term peaceful coexistence.  As it stands today there is NO entity in the world that would be trusted by enough people to take on the role of managing our future.  The only thing such a venture would guarantee is conflict.

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Merc14
On 7/12/2019 at 7:38 PM, Captain Risky said:

...well that all depends on Trump. Considering Trump's business dealings inTurkey and just how compromised and indebted Flynn was to Turkey i get the distinct impression that Trump will trivialise the sanctions and give another dictator anther get outta jail card. 

Once again you were completely wrong.  Well done and your reasoning is absurd which may explain your 0 batting score.  For example, WTF could Flynn possibly have to do with a decision and circumstances that are happening well after he left his job with the administration?

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The Truman show
5 hours ago, Merc14 said:

Once again you were completely wrong.  Well done and your reasoning is absurd which may explain your 0 batting score.  For example, WTF could Flynn possibly have to do with a decision and circumstances that are happening well after he left his job with the administration?

Flynn has nothing to do with Trump now but that wasn’t always the case. Flynn got caught out. That doesn’t mean Trump disapproved of what he done. Just that Flynn took Turkish money to lobby Trump directly. Together with Trumps wishy washy attitude to Turkey I’d say it’s a big thing.

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Merc14
1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

Flynn has nothing to do with Trump now but that wasn’t always the case. Flynn got caught out. That doesn’t mean Trump disapproved of what he done. Just that Flynn took Turkish money to lobby Trump directly. Together with Trumps wishy washy attitude to Turkey I’d say it’s a big thing.

I'd say you don't know what you are talking about and Flynn had nothing to do with any of this, especialy in July of 2019 when yoiu posted, but you are saying he did so prove it or apologize for indulging your TDS with this garbage.  Prove your accusation this one time or take it back.

Edited by Merc14
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The Truman show
13 hours ago, Merc14 said:

I'd say you don't know what you are talking about and Flynn had nothing to do with any of this, especialy in July of 2019 when yoiu posted, but you are saying he did so prove it or apologize for indulging your TDS with this garbage.  Prove your accusation this one time or take it back.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/23/us/politics/bijan-kian-guilty-flynn.html

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Earl.Of.Trumps
On 7/22/2019 at 12:11 PM, Captain Risky said:

America doesn’t sell drones to Turkey. The Turks have their own independent policy of targeting American allies in Syria and Northern Iraq. They pay lip service to the NATO alliance. The F-35 is just a continuation of deeper issues. Mainly that Turkey is jumping ship. Looking for an excuse to leave America’s orbit.

America and it’s allies are not dumb. Europe will not sell to a Turkey that will more than likely trade western tech for high end Russian and Chinese weapons. 

The west needs to cut Turkey loose.

Yes, and the prospect of things going terribly awry and the US having two huge Air Force bases there, in Turkey, is scary. 

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps
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Merc14
26 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Yes, and the prospect of things going terribly awry and the US having two huge Air Force bases there, in Turkey, is scary. 

Things have been going terribly awry in Turkey since Erdogan got elected.   General Flynn had nothing to do with it because Turkey selected the S-400 in 2017 after turning down Patriots in 2013 and again in 2018.  Still waiting for risky to explain Trump and Flynn being the cause of the current row.

Edited by Merc14
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The Truman show
1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Yes, and the prospect of things going terribly awry and the US having two huge Air Force bases there, in Turkey, is scary. 

The U.S. has 50 nuclear bombs stationed in Turkey and early warning radars that protect Europe, America and Israel. I see you point finding alternatives is not an easy thing.

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The Truman show
56 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

Things have been going terribly awry in Turkey since Erdogan got elected.   General Flynn had nothing to do with it because Turkey selected the S-400 in 2017 after turning down Patriots in 2013 and again in 2018.  Still waiting for risky to explain Trump and Flynn being the cause of the current row.

Flynn and Trump have been less than effective in relaying the importance of Turkey towing the alliance line. Turkey has been given too much latitude in defining the post Obama relationship. Flynn made promises of deporting Gülen and making breaking Iran sanctions go away. It didn’t work. Flynn is under investigation for these very things and Trump is guilty at the very least of knowingly continuing this policy. Which president would criticise his predecessor to appease anti democratic forces in Turkey? Unheard of.

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Merc14
1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

Flynn and Trump have been less than effective in relaying the importance of Turkey towing the alliance line. Turkey has been given too much latitude in defining the post Obama relationship. Flynn made promises of deporting Gülen and making breaking Iran sanctions go away. It didn’t work. Flynn is under investigation for these very things and Trump is guilty at the very least of knowingly continuing this policy. Which president would criticise his predecessor to appease anti democratic forces in Turkey? Unheard of.

All of the above is something that can be debated later (hint, you will lose, again, as usual) I asked you a specific and direct question, why don't you answer it?

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