New Zealanders hand over guns in Christchurch

[Gunn]

On 9/19/2019 at 8:37 AM, psyche101 said:

I'm being realistic. You cannot deny that others will die from gun violence needlessly this year. That's going to happen. Murphy isn't hard to predict there.

No denial, but it doesn't mean I agree with your type of gun regulations.  But this future predictability stuff about the outcomes of a tyrannical government versus rebellion is turning circular/repetitive and is going nowhere, Psyche. If you are just going to continue to repeat the same things over again, let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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Are you agreeing with DieChecker that the school deaths are a necessary sacrifice to ensure a resistance is always at the ready? 

No you're misinterpreting my statement. I'm telling you the philosophical reason behind, why so many pro gun Americans believe that, if the situation really was actually down to those only two choices; and it doesn't mean people like it that way either. I wish you'd quit making it out like all all pro gun advocates/2A supporters want it that way. Because IMO it doesn't even have to be like that, like that's the only two limited options, that versus each other, and that's all there is, because there are always other options looking at it from a third point of view. What the FBI and local police are doing right now, arresting potential mass shooters, is an example of those other options.

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You might as well be talking about those redcoats rising from the dead as its about as likely as the rougue government and shootouts fantasy in this day and age. That's the point. It was a long time ago under very different circumstances that makes it not only uikely, but show no signs of rising. Living in the past isn't learning from old lessons. Right now there's an immediate threat. It's not logical or sensible to ignore that for something that shows no indication of becoming a threat. 

You're not citing personal experience. You're citing history. 

Feel free to make a case. This is a discussion forum. I have. How is a rouge government a higher concern than mass shootings? What makes it so likely that victims should be viewed as collateral damage? 

What makes you think we have not learned from history? Isn't that why you reelect every 4 years with only 2 terms allowed? Isn't that why our countries have democratic political processes?

It's because you think the wrong political actors can't possibly get into power in the U.S., sometime after previous strict gun regulations have been legislated, and then these wrong political actors take those strict gun regulations even further to total population disarmament for their own agendas. It doesn't matter about the political processes, there are always ways around anything and you can bet somebody will find a way. I can think of a few ways, such as through emergency executive orders and martial law, that can bypass those normal political processes in a short amount of time and make declarations permanent, just because of some major event happening that supposedly gives excuses for it. Although we may have checks and balances in our political processes, but that's never been a guarantee to work.

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You don't think talking to Americans in here is a help? Some very kind posters have taken the time to explain a great deal about the culture, some hunters with very respectable lifestyles have discussed their views, which I not only agree with, but have some common ground with having grown up in a rural area. And then there's others who outright promote the idea of regulation and some whom I shudder to think own deadly weapons. It's a mix. Like anywhere. Some of the comments I saw supporting Drejka during that fiasco were very enlightening indeed. There's a very dark side to gun culture. 

What about the regular flow of gun violence threads with posters from the states commenting? Do you not feel this forum offers unique insights into other cultures and beliefs?

Yeah talking to us over the net may help you understand some things to a certain point, but unfortunately it's more in a negative light when you're not getting the entire picture. Your view of our entire nation and the details of our nation is being limited from where you sit. It makes you generalize and I blame the national media.

Yeah Drejka "F"ed up and has been found guilty and sentenced. Deep down, everybody knows his pride got hurt during the altercation, and he thought he could get away with shooting the guy with instant revenge, by abusing our Florida gun laws. When all he had to do was maybe flash his gun and warn the guy to stop, then call the cops and have the guy brought up on assault charges and then sue the hell out of the guy for shoving Drejka down to the ground. I've been in that situation myself, got in a argument with somebody on the road (road rage), they attacked and punched/slapped me in the face, I threaten to call police and I immediately started calling 911 and they just walked away. BTW, at the time I was armed too. Man I just don't believe in shooting unarmed people that are not shooting at me. There's no need to take things that far.

You're not going to get the entire picture about all of us from a few gun violence threads here on UM and a few poster comments. That's a mixed drop in the bucket. Why would you think that?

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That sounds great

I really hope it goes well. If that turns out to be your best solution, that's fantastic. I'll keep an eye out fir those threads.

Heck yeah, could even be turning into one of those other options I mentioned above. But you know what? You just inadvertently gave me an idea though. Here is a thread you can bookmark and can keep an eye on.

Link to my thread

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You can't be serous. Strict gun control that allows home weapons for self defence? 

What are the requirements to own a gun in South Africa?

You must be a South African citizen or permanent resident and at least 21 years old;

You must be mentally stable and fit;

You will have to pass a background check;

You can't have a criminal record;

You can't be addicted to drugs or alcohol.

https://m.news24.com/Analysis/6-questions-answered-about-gun-ownership-in-sa-20181022

Yeah but you forgot required gun training, then a license required for each gun, limitations to how many guns you can own, semi-autos banned - only single shot weapons allowed, and it's viewed as a privilege not a right, and see that's were it starts to get strict to any law-abiding citizen in SA compared to the U.S. What I just mentioned, is not required at the federal/national level in the U.S. And SA think it's strict so far. Jackie Nagtegaal explains all this in a interview with CapeTalk;

Are SA's gun laws strict enough to protect us?

But picture events like this in SA - A criminal with an illegal AK47 breaks into a family's house and all the family  have is a single shot rifle or gun. The family has to take time to reload and make each shot count, while at the same time trying to avoid a hail of bullets coming at them. Yep! Strict gun control laws on the SA law-abiding citizen, but not on the criminal who doesn't care about laws and has the upper advantage with his/her illegal AK47.  

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Nothing like our solution at all. And personally, I'd say more like South America than the States. Surely you are, well aware of the farmer murders?The open corruption? Constant civil wars? Car jacking? Are you really saying that's what the US is like? In that scale? 

You don't know? Well, why would I expect you to know - since you've probably never been/lived here. He-he! But yeah man, a lot of situations are pretty much similar in the U.S., especially the freaking corruption. There is corruption running all through our levels of government. At times on the federal level, the state level, and even at the local level with corrupt mayors and local police departments. It doesn't always happen all the time and everywhere, but it happens enough to get noticed by everybody at least here in the U.S.

No constant civil wars, but constant civil unrest involving firearms. In some places, we got gangs over here who fight each other in the streets, over something simple and stupid like gang bandanas colors or opposing motorcycle jackets that each group wears. Drive by shootings are an epidemic in some places. And, OMG! American criminals were the first to invent car jacking. Hell, about a couple of weeks ago, even a mass shooter hijacked a postal worker's vehicle after he killed her, and shot more people while driving her vehicle. And we've even had criminals try and hijack armored cars (vehicles carrying cash to banks)over here. Very rarely successful, because the drivers are usually armed, which is why they are armed, but the criminals here are crazy enough to try it.

Check this out....
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2019/01/09/notable-armored-car-robberies-american-history/2511677002/

...and that's just the few that were successful or partly successful. There are many more then this, that were totally unsuccessful.
 

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According to Mother Jones, there was a slight drop in mass shootings and an immediate climb straight after the ban. 

In the USA, a small decline was evident during the 1994-2004 Federal Assault Weapon Ban. Incidents and fatalities increased after 2004.

https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/JCRPP-05-2015-0013/full/html

Logically it wouldn't have an overall effect, unless I'm wrong, it's my understanding that gun violence overall is more often enacted with handguns? Robberies, murders, suicide etc. If the statistics are correct, it does seem to have had some effect in the required area. 

How is that affecting rights? Many other weapons were readily available were they not? Isn't that sufficient to satisfy the 2nd?

According to this study, there was a hike in prices initially, turned around by a glut on the market due to large scale manufacture right before the ban. 

Prices of assault weapons rose substantially around the time of the ban's enactment, reducing the availability of assault weapons to criminal users in the very short run. However, a surge in assault weapon production just before the ban caused prices to fall in the months following the ban. 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1016055919939

What was it I said before? And mass shootings still happened back then, maybe not as much, but just enough to still be a problem. Yep, still a problem, still happened, still a halfass solution for us. Even the most well known shooting, the Columbine High School massacre (1999) happened during that time and just recently, the authorities arrested two potential mass shooters (two kids who don't even know each other) thinking it was the greatest school shooting of all time and one of the reasons behind their plans to shoot people in their own schools; crazy!

Affecting rights? Sufficiently to satisfy the 2nd? Not if the supreme court ruled 4 years later that banning any kind of semi-autos was unconstitutional to the 2nd.

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

Yeah prices may have rose for a short period of time, but it still didn't stop people from buying other kinds of semi-automatic rifles from gunrunners during that time either, that can do just as much damage, no matter what they aesthetically look like. I personally know, lol, I'm telling you I was there. Seen it with my own eyes and I wasn't the only American kid who saw that.

 I guess you just don't get it, Americans always find some way to get what they want, sometimes with cheap work-arounds, like with buying and selling banned drugs that are illegal, after all this time (war on drugs) people are still doing it. Banning things doesn't totally work on us, we prove that time and time again. The country we live in is all based on capitalism. Somebody, somewhere in this country will sell anything cheap to make a buck.

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Apparently that's a lot of money there to a criminal. So much in fact that according to this source, they rent them instead. 

SA criminals are hiring AK47s because it’s too expensive to buy them – this is how much it costs

While purchasing an AK-47 on the black market could cost anything between R1,000 and R1,800, smaller criminal gangs that cannot afford large sums of money hire the rifles for between R100 and R250 each.

Three open borders, corrupt government and about 12 guns a person (mostly illegal) per head.

Yeah but they're still obtaining the guns illegally, no matter how they do it, right? So they will always find a way.  And you don't think the Mexican cartel sell/smuggle AK47s and other Chinese/North Korean guns to the American gangs here in the U.S.? Also, some of those cartel members bring those guns with them when they cross the border to smuggle drugs and people. We may only have two closed borders, but the drugs, guns and illegal immigrants are still getting in; same problem as SA with guns in that aspect. And man, like I mentioned before, there is corruption running all through our levels of government.

mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

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Without a responsible government and the cooperation of the nations citizens, it won't work. Its a community effort. 

Yeah, and just once, in all criminal history, if only the U.S. and SA's nation criminals would make a community effort and stop trying to acquire things illegally. Oh yeah, I can see that totally work, for sure.

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Apart from gun culture, how do you see us as so different? Our ties to the monarch are weak, its more a figurehead symbol, we are an independent nation. Why do you feel a political model reflects in the people? 

Despite the weak ties - You still have a Queen who is a "constitutional monarch" and your country is a "constitutional monarchy with The Queen as Sovereign". Point is we have no such thing and no ministers, no parliament. We are much more independent then you are. Remember, our fore fathers fought the British monarchy for it, we even celebrate it on July 4th; even named it Independence Day.

Introduction

Most people think in terms of the way their government politics is structured and is guided by that. Other then ties to the Queen of England, your country has more of European socialist beliefs and socialist tendencies, while the U.S. has more of conservative beliefs and capitalist tendencies, despite the small minority of loud mouth socialists over here in the U.S. who make a stink about politics and other things. After all, most of us tend to vote with our wallets and don't much care about anything else, although our dominating liberal media tries to convince everybody otherwise; trying to make out like we are a European democracy and not a constitutional republic. The 2016 Presidential election is a good example of that.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Gunn

[psyche101]

On 9/21/2019 at 4:49 PM, DieChecker said:

Ah, but the German people were not being oppressed. In my arguement it wouldnt be 1%, or 5%, of the population targeted, but 100%.

They were German people of Jewish decent or immigration. If the same was to happen in America today , would the armed population stand by and go 'meh' or would they consider the minority fellow Americans who deserve their rights to be upheld? Isn't the point of gun culture freedom for all? 

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As to, "...the disarming and killing of Jews was unconnected with Nazi gun control policy...", I believe that is mainly opinion.

Seems well based though. Hitler peferred boxing and thought is was more honorable than any other sport. The original argument is just not well supported. The supporting link from your quote states :

The history of Weimar and Nazi gun laws has not received enough
critical attention by historians. The classic historical studies of the
Weimar Republic and the Third Reich-Erich Eyck's multi-volume A
History of the Weimar Republic,'39 William Shirer's The Rise and Fall
of the Third Reich,140 Alan Bullock's Hitler: A Study in Tyranny 4' -
do not mention the gun laws, nor do they discuss Hitler's relationship
to firearms. More specialized historical research on the Nazi state
(such as Karl Bracher's The German Dictatorship: The Origins,
Structure, and Effects of National Socialism

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Depends, most dictators started as elected populists, who gain control of the Legislative end of the government... and Bam! Ruler for life... all legally legislated.

How do you feel Americas political system could fall prey to that? 

Your telling me that you cannot change traditional gun laws for the immediate greater good, but the nation would change leadership processes based on charisma? 

What I'm asking is how likely is the threat? Examples of 3rd world countries is side stepping the subject. As you say, the US is powerful. Other countries seem unlikely unless they abandon all ethics and morals. Which certainly could happen, and if they do, you would be screwed regardless. What intelligence suggests that all modern measures still have aoophole that could and is likely to be exploited at the expense of the people? And who would be deemed a threat? 

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Look at what Merkle did... Welcomed millions of undocumented migrants into the EU, and spawned the greatest conservative movement across "liberal" Europe in almost a century. There is a point of going too far...

And there's a reason nobody followed her example, and heavily criticised the act at the time. I don't think that an armed nation would have affected her decision. 

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I agree to that. What my point was, was something banned on the perception of danger based on a single incident.

A significant incident that claimed 51 lives and injured 49. That's worth taking note of, and I don't see any sensibility at all in waiting for more such incidents before acting on them. Your own country shoes that unchecked, the problem becomes rampant. 

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Thay can do what they want, but IMHO, it was a knee jerk reaction, not a thought out, public input, methodology.

Strongly disagree. 

Golden Duck has pointed out that this has been discussed as a concern for some time now. And the vote was 119 to 1.

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ISIS... Afghanistan... Iraq... didnt those all evolve into basically short range level combat?

Not really. Criminals hiding in caves using human shields. Basically cowards hiding behind the morals and ethics of others. 

Technology had a big impact as well. Now that that cats out of the bag, it will only become more and more common. 

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Very likely, unless the case of your total genocide.

Name a single nation you believe would do anything close to such a genocide?

Many middle Eastern sects would consider it religious cleansing sanctioned by their God. 

North Korea could. China could. 

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Got an example of such a case by case basis? Collectors? Ranchers?

How about the bloke I discussed with you earlier in the thread? Didn't you work out he got like 2% of the buyback himself? 

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In other words... banned, for the general populace.

Not banned. Banned is taken. These people are voluntarily handing weapons in. And to maintain any previous commitments to shooting in any form, one has but to produce sound reason. That's very sensible. 

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That's hard to do for someone who grew up responsibly using guns, and everyone I know responsibly using guns, for fifty years.

Why? 

You seem to have this mindset that it's punishment. It's not. It's a community action. 

Sometimes things change for the better. Many homophibic people are angry about the freedom the gay community get today. Doesn't make them, or their traditions right. 

You keep making it personal. It's about the community. Not the individual. With all due respect  that's where America falls down IMHO. 

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I'm not anti regulation, but what happened in NZ was a ban, not simple regulation. 

People still own guns. So that's not a ban by any definition.. 

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Good people are not usually against regulation, but often will be against a ban.

The people of NZ seem quite supportive. I don't think it's appropriate to suggest US mindsets onto people doing their own thing. Gun culture is without doubt one of the darkest clouds over America today. Its not envied or respected from what I can see by the majority of the globe. Its not what anyone wants. That seems to be as hard to get across as ahything. It's why so many countries have had the full support of their citizens  and why gun regulation works. Gun culture is a as much a minority outside of America as much as its a majority in America. 

[tmcom]

A good idea with almost 50% of New Zealands population having to cut back on heating due to their dimwitted leader going gung ho about renewable's.

And their children becoming sicker, due to a colder room/house.

This also happened in the late 1800,'s but back then they just died!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/113730079/experts-warn-100-renewable-electricity-target-will-hurt-new-zealands-wider-climate-goals

100 renewables will destroy the country, and probably create civil unrest, so abolishing guns is a must.

These types will never listen to the population, or hard facts, and are a menace to themselves and the people they govern, at least til, (just like in France) the population reaches their tipping point.

[Kismit]

16 minutes ago, tmcom said:

A good idea with almost 50% of New Zealands population having to cut back on heating due to their dimwitted leader going gung ho about renewable's.

And their children becoming sicker, due to a colder room/house.

This also happened in the late 1800,'s but back then they just died!

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/113730079/experts-warn-100-renewable-electricity-target-will-hurt-new-zealands-wider-climate-goals

100 renewables will destroy the country, and probably create civil unrest, so abolishing guns is a must.

These types will never listen to the population, or hard facts, and are a menace to themselves and the people they govern, at least til, (just like in France) the population reaches their tipping point.

I think you will discover we have an election due next year and this very much looks like opposition slander disguised as news. Very common political campaign tactic. You can also find an awful lot connected to the state of our water ways apparently attributed to Labour, however it is the National party who turned a blind eye to the farming practices that have gone unchecked and the heating? It’s kind of odd that the Labor Government introduced a home heating grant and healthy homes bill for renters and yet now, now? When an election is looming a story surfaces about families suffering, it must have been terrible for those families when National where in allowing all of our homes to be purchased by overseas buyers and rented back to us at almost wage rates because it was good for the “economy”.

 I do not dislike National, I have voted for them more than once, but I dislike being treated like an idiot and lied to and watching the new recruits try to brainwash the gullible because those tactics have worked elsewhere. 

There is no tipping point for population here. We only have 5 million people on all of our Islands combined. We are still suffering from the damage caused by the last National governing term. Business over humans attitude. 

And I am a landlord and business owner, National parties so called demographic. Nope they are proving themselves to be nothing but lying, manipulative, followers of the current popular dictators rhetoric that is winning over the largest demographic.

God this world is regrettably short sighted.

[tmcom]

50 minutes ago, Kismit said:

I think you will discover we have an election due next year and this very much looks like opposition slander disguised as news. Very common political campaign tactic. You can also find an awful lot connected to the state of our water ways apparently attributed to Labour, however it is the National party who turned a blind eye to the farming practices that have gone unchecked and the heating? It’s kind of odd that the Labor Government introduced a home heating grant and healthy homes bill for renters and yet now, now? When an election is looming a story surfaces about families suffering, it must have been terrible for those families when National where in allowing all of our homes to be purchased by overseas buyers and rented back to us at almost wage rates because it was good for the “economy”.

 I do not dislike National, I have voted for them more than once, but I dislike being treated like an idiot and lied to and watching the new recruits try to brainwash the gullible because those tactics have worked elsewhere. 

There is no tipping point for population here. We only have 5 million people on all of our Islands combined. We are still suffering from the damage caused by the last National governing term. Business over humans attitude. 

And I am a landlord and business owner, National parties so called demographic. Nope they are proving themselves to be nothing but lying, manipulative, followers of the current popular dictators rhetoric that is winning over the largest demographic.

God this world is regrettably short sighted.

Thankyou Kismit, good to hear that from a New Zealander, and someone of high standing, not sure how far you lot have gone down the 100% renewable path, Vic/AU, has closed down one coal plant or we have lost 22% of our electrical supply, with one power blackout under our belts, with another affecting over 1m Victorians, most likely this summer.

But our leader is blind to this, as yours is.

Also heard today that we will be getting our gas from Queensland, eventhough we have plenty here, at inflated prices for no reason, other than to keep the greens happy, (this is in NSW and VIC) so our country is being slowly ruined by leaders with blinders on.

Or as one columnist said in todays Herald Sun, "by 2040, if the Greens have their way, Australia, will have 40% unemployment, and a b*****ed country".

I sure hope that you guys can get rid of her for someone more balanced,...or l have been to NZ, a long time ago and know how cold it gets at night, and how vital it is to have secure heating.

Hydro is good, but it has limits, Tasmania selling off its hydro for credits, til they ran out of water, then had to turn on a gas plant they closed previously is testimony to political party's that don't think.

Individuals who create a mess, then blame the climate, have no place governing the many.

[Kismit]

7 hours ago, tmcom said:

Thankyou Kismit, good to hear that from a New Zealander, and someone of high standing, not sure how far you lot have gone down the 100% renewable path, Vic/AU, has closed down one coal plant or we have lost 22% of our electrical supply, with one power blackout under our belts, with another affecting over 1m Victorians, most likely this summer.

But our leader is blind to this, as yours is.

Also heard today that we will be getting our gas from Queensland, eventhough we have plenty here, at inflated prices for no reason, other than to keep the greens happy, (this is in NSW and VIC) so our country is being slowly ruined by leaders with blinders on.

Or as one columnist said in todays Herald Sun, "by 2040, if the Greens have their way, Australia, will have 40% unemployment, and a b*****ed country".

I sure hope that you guys can get rid of her for someone more balanced,...or l have been to NZ, a long time ago and know how cold it gets at night, and how vital it is to have secure heating.

Hydro is good, but it has limits, Tasmania selling off its hydro for credits, til they ran out of water, then had to turn on a gas plant they closed previously is testimony to political party's that don't think.

Individuals who create a mess, then blame the climate, have no place governing the many.

The majority of Kiwi electricity is hydro generated. For over 100 years. We generate so much of it here in the South Island we have to send it up North.

Jacinda Ardern is doing a fine job despite the almost constant slagging off she has publicly received from the opposition party with their very weak leader and their underhanded skewed media releases like the one you posted. 

It is just an ad for a political party (the opposition) which has nothing really of its own to offer, so it is tearing down the current leadership with the same “fake news” crap that is apparent all over the world and unfortunately they will probably get back in to cause damage to the housing sector again, making it impossible for young people to be able to buy a home and putting more New Zealand working families into emergency motel accommodation because they can’t afford to rent.( It is apparently good for the economy), pushing schools to economic breaking point, making the hospitals so top heavy with legislation and CEO’s that they have screwed the rural sector.

 However those who already had a lot of wealth, and government influence they seem to do very well under National.

Christ, if it came down to the occasional black out over people being able to live in their own home, children getting a quality education and the elderly having local access to healthcare, I personally  would just invest in some solar panels and stop b****ing.

[Kismit]

If you really want to see the difference in political leadership try this link https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/new-zealand 2016 compared to 2019 the same or better in all cases but 1 according to the table. So how does that make her worse for New Zealand than the opposition party? The same part who tried to refer to her as the absent Prime minister because she was at the APEC meeting over seas. They are truly playing to the short sighted and easily manipulated as well as the 1%, and why not decades of poorly funded under supported over burdened schools have turned out millions of people who can’t actually think for themselves, or decipher information without first checking their own bias.

When the news is again full of stories about families  living in cars and we see bus loads of foreigners being driven around our suburban streets on shopping tours while the government not only allows but encourages foreign real estate groups to market that you can buy as many homes as you want and rent them at over 80% of the local income. We will see just how balanced the Politics are.

[tmcom]

7 hours ago, Kismit said:

 However those who already had a lot of wealth, and government influence they seem to do very well under National.

Christ, if it came down to the occasional black out over people being able to live in their own home, children getting a quality education and the elderly having local access to healthcare, I personally  would just invest in some solar panels and stop b****ing.

Ok, sounds like you are between a rock and a hard place, in VIc/Au, it is our current leader, messing up our grid, and staving of a recession with large scale buliding projects, that is worse, than our alternative, which won't close down a coal plant for the sake of it, and thinks long and hard before they did.

Our last power blackout lasted for 4 hours and mainly hammered the inner city and metro/Melbourne mod, or 200,000, with one almost dying in a hot elevator and another with cronic ashma, almost perishing, due to no power or air-con,.

 

Power blackouts on very hot days, can kill people, with our premier, just taking action and not thinking!

 

Voting this idiot out, building a fast start gas power station, and allowing gas exploration in our state again, is the answer!

I pray in a few years time, he finally gets the boot, but he knows if he builds stuff, he will keep getting reelected, although a large scale power blackout should fix that!

Good luck with next year.