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Still Waters

New Zealanders hand over guns in Christchurch

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Professor Buzzkill
5 hours ago, aztek said:

so criminals will have to rob more people to buy a more expensive gun,  you do not really think those people care about black market prices? but you should, cuz next person they rob may be you.

Looks like there's about to be a flood of firearms on the black market. All criminals have to do is offer retail replacement cost and they would have already out bid the government. 

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and then
On 7/14/2019 at 12:19 AM, pixiii said:

Well this has been a long time coming and our little brother NZ will be much like Australia now.  Unfortunately, if a criminal really wants a gun, they'll get one.  Sadly, just because we have strict Gun Laws doesn't necessarily mean there isn't going to be any more crimes related to them.  It may cut down the number of gun related crimes, but you won't be able to stop the criminally minded from buying them.....ever.   

If the citizens of Kiwi land want to do this then I support their efforts but here in America, if stricter laws are passed we will see the Left demanding even STRICTER laws after the next (inevitable) mass shooting.  The laws we have now are not sufficiently enforced and there will never be an ability to rid the nation of all guns.  That's why I stand here and now against the creeping tyranny of politicians.  

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and then
On 7/22/2019 at 7:57 AM, skliss said:

Proposed New Zealand law says owning guns is not a right

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) — New Zealand's government is planning further restrictions to gun ownership in a law proposed Monday that emphasizes owning guns is a privilege and not a right.

The new law would ban the sale of guns to overseas visitors, create a register to track all guns in the country, and require gun owners to renew their gun licenses every five years instead of every 10. It would also allow police to weigh other factors such as a person's mental health and even what they had been posting on social media to determine whether they were fit to own a gun.

The government hopes lawmakers will approve the legislation by the end of the year.

https://news.yahoo.com/proposed-zealand-law-says-owning-074155413.html

When they try that here, they are going to truly regret the outcome.  

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aztek

they ARE doing  it here little by little, and at least 1/3 of the country agrees.   but those are same people who scream trump is racist yet could not give a single legit example why. like in a video i posted earlier,   so  we do have mental health crisis in usa, 

Edited by aztek
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Hammerclaw

In the course of time, guns will be as regulated as automobiles and the qualifications to own and use either, more stringent. In this country at least, it's going to be a hard slog and take much more time and effort. Political grandstanding like rushing back from vacation to pass some hastily crafted, feelgood legislation won't cut the mustard. Over the last seven decades, this country, it's government, has run away from and shirked it's responsibility to deal with chronic mental illness. Public institutions that once dealt with this problem have been emptied and closed and their occupants dumped into the streets. Now, they live at home, with minimal care and attention to their problems, or squat in homeless camps. Until that problem is addressed, coupled with more effective gun ownership administration, nothing will change. We can only expect sane, law-abiding citizens to obey any new gun laws.  

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Gwynbleidd
9 hours ago, aztek said:

so criminals will have to rob more people to buy a more expensive gun,  you do not really think those people care about black market prices? but you should, cuz next person they rob may be you.

I agree wholeheartedly - if a criminal wants a gun, bazooka, whatever they want to use, they'll get it and they'll rob innocent people to get the money for it too.  Do you think the US would ever consider banning the types of weapons that don't fall into the category of pistols, hunting rifles (non automatic rifles ie) sorry but I do not know my guns at all I'm afraid.  Would the two sides be able to negotiate and come to an agreement in the middle do you think? 

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Gwynbleidd
3 hours ago, and then said:

When they try that here, they are going to truly regret the outcome.  

Do you truly believe people would rise up and fight back in this era though @and then and shoot innocent people?  This wouldn't solve anything, it would validate those views the extreme left has of the gun owners imho - I feel like it would be the sensible people who would hold back (most likely the ones with responsible gun ownership presently) and the people who fall into the outrage culture category would be the ones screaming the loudest in getting rid of guns altogether which is not necessarily the answer either.  Can't there be a middle ground (see my post to @Aztec above I think)? 

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and then
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

We can only expect sane, law-abiding citizens to obey any new gun laws.  

I think obeying new restrictions on ownership should be contingent on the geographic Sanctuary status.  ;)  My home is going to be a 2A sanctuary zone.  The cops in my area will wink and nod as well.  In fact, I really believe we'll see sanctuary status for states or even a limited secessionist movement.  The Progs have blazed the trail into normalizing Nullification.  

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and then
21 minutes ago, pixiii said:

shoot innocent people?

Do you believe that cops or court officers that are attempting to enforce laws that go directly against our Constitution are "innocent"?  I think that when they use their badge and gun to enforce a political agenda that goes against the Constitution, they have stepped over a line from being law officers and have become tyranny enforcers.  They'd deserve no mercy.  Remember the Nazis at Nuremberg who pled not guilty because they were "just following orders"?  That doesn't work.  As to shooting "innocent people", no, I absolutely would not do that.  

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Gwynbleidd
33 minutes ago, and then said:

Do you believe that cops or court officers that are attempting to enforce laws that go directly against our Constitution are "innocent"? 

No I don't believe that, or shall we say I'd hate to think people would do that, especially in those positions.  Do you think it would get to that stage though?

Quote

I think that when they use their badge and gun to enforce a political agenda that goes against the Constitution, they have stepped over a line from being law officers and have become tyranny enforcers.  They'd deserve no mercy. 

I agree yes, especially if it's to enforce a political agenda that goes against the Constitution as you said. 

However, how would people fight back against this, if this was to end up happening?  Surely people wouldn't go on a shooting rampage against the police/authorities/govt? 

Wasn't the 2nd Amendment created for people to protect themselves against the Govt (covering police/authorities etc?)?  I would think there would eventually be a war between the citizens and the Govt.   A modern day war in the USA.   I'm afraid I'm not anywhere near an expert in your Constitution or laws, hence my questions.  It's frightening to me to think a country with as large a population as the USA would consider fighting back against the Govt/Authorities with force showing no mercy.  :(   Perhaps it is because we don't have a gun culture here, I really don't know what it's like.

Quote

Remember the Nazis at Nuremberg who pled not guilty because they were "just following orders"?  That doesn't work.  As to shooting "innocent people", no, I absolutely would not do that.  

Of course, yes.  I would expect a number of police/authorities with the badges/guns to not participate in enforcing the law.  Surely they'd have their own opinions and beliefs and not be afraid of standing up to the govt/authorities etc and for what they believe in.  

Would you be agreeable to giving up the right of weapons that do not fall into the category of (forgive my lack of gun knowledge here :lol: ) hunting rifles (semi-auto), pistols, and banning weapons outside of those?  To create a middle ground for both sides to negotiate on I mean.  You would still have hunting rifles and/or pistols to protect yourself and your family with.  Does a person really need something bigger and tougher than those weapons to protect themselves in this day and age?   I guess the other side of the argument is people say the 2A was during a time where the people required that, is it still applicable today?

Sorry for all the questions @and then I'm just getting my head wrapped around it.  Thank you for answering btw! :lol: 

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spartan max2
On 7/16/2019 at 11:24 PM, Kismit said:

I feel safer, the houses of worship feel safer. Not everyone agrees with it, but the Government have already paid out $1million in just one buy back in Christchurch, so it would appear that quite a few people are happy about it.

Seeing how everyone giving their gun away is clearly a law abiding and safe citizen, I don't understand how it makes you feel any safer. 

I highly doubt any person giving their gun away is the type of person who would go on a killing spree. 

Edit: to add that it's not rhetorical I'm actually asking the question.

Edited by spartan max2
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aztek
2 hours ago, pixiii said:

I agree wholeheartedly - if a criminal wants a gun, bazooka, whatever they want to use, they'll get it and they'll rob innocent people to get the money for it too.  Do you think the US would ever consider banning the types of weapons that don't fall into the category of pistols, hunting rifles (non automatic rifles ie) sorry but I do not know my guns at all I'm afraid.  Would the two sides be able to negotiate and come to an agreement in the middle do you think? 

bans do not work on criminals, they do not obey laws,  

Edited by aztek
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aztek

most restrictive city LA has more gang shootings than any other large city, none of the weapons are legal, and  i do not see ban working.

i see tens or even hundred millions of hunters, and civilians  use ar 15, or others self loading rifles and not killing anyone, like ever.  

Edited by aztek
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Kismit
3 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Seeing how everyone giving their gun away is clearly a law abiding and safe citizen, I don't understand how it makes you feel any safer. 

I highly doubt any person giving their gun away is the type of person who would go on a killing spree. 

Edit: to add that it's not rhetorical I'm actually asking the question.

How can you be so sure all of the guns handed back were legal?

When the Australian buy back scheme was first implemented, many a nanna and Mother handed in guns they knew their children and grandchildren should not have.

The mere fact that this Government stood up for the protection of innocents by acting quickly, the mere fact that there are those people in New Zealand willing to help keep the rest of us from being victims again by giving up guns they do not need. these acts help make me feel safer, cared for and my life and my children's lives respected.

Not sure what changes will take place in America to help protect the innocent, whether or not anything will be done to make people feel like their lives matter or that buying bullet proof back packs is not normal. And they won't help against a high powered weapon. when your kids are in a mall or at a fair or walking to school or sitting in Church.

Our police can now automatically confiscate illegal weapons, The gangs have to hide them if they want to keep them. And it is very hard to use a gun you have hidden. They can not be sold, so they will not build up and new psychos can no longer get their hands on them easily. And believe me no gang member is just going to sell some random an illegal weapon. 

the gangs can keep them, until they get confiscated, or hide them so well they can not reach them, but if they were smart, they would have got a few bucks for the illegal ones and brought some new ones instead. Just because they are criminals does not mean they are stupid.

Less high powered weapons, less unnecessary testosterone enhancing, aggression inducing military style guns. It's all good in this hood.

 

What is your Government doing to make you and your children safe? Your Churches safer? Your streets? Your homes? Your shopping mall? Your schools? And why should anyone from a nation outside of the US take advice on gun control from someone inside of a country that clearly has no real control over it's own gun culture?

Also both not rhetorical questions

 

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Professor Buzzkill
1 hour ago, Kismit said:

How can you be so sure all of the guns handed back were legal?

When the Australian buy back scheme was first implemented, many a nanna and Mother handed in guns they knew their children and grandchildren should not have.

 

If you turn up with a firearm and no license at a buy back event you won't be given any money.

The PM is  not targeting criminals, possibly because, as she already stated she "has a responsibility to the taxpayers ". 

 

Pitty she doesnt feel the same responsibility when implementing new taxes

Edited by Professor Buzzkill
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Kismit
4 minutes ago, Professor Buzzkill said:

If you turn up with a firearm and no license at a buy back event you won't be given any money.

The PM is  not targeting criminals, possibly because, as she already stated she "has a responsibility to the taxpayers ". 

 

Pitty she doesnt feel the same responsibility when implementing new taxes

Not sure what this has to do with my argument. This appears to be a seperate argument again 

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and then
11 hours ago, pixiii said:

Wasn't the 2nd Amendment created for people to protect themselves against the Govt (covering police/authorities etc?)?  I would think there would eventually be a war between the citizens and the Govt.   A modern day war in the USA.

IF it came to violent insurrection against authorities it would begin locally.  Citizens resisting confiscation by local law enforcement and shooting breaking out.  I think it would be MUCH more likely that localities like cities, counties or even states would declare the intention to refuse to enforce "laws" that were clearly unconstitutional.  The fact on the ground is that with 60-80 million gun owners, if even a small % decide to fight, the government could not prevail.  Millions of Americans would resist confiscation and they'd vote out legislators that passed unconstitutional laws.  2A is such a hot button topic that even a ruling by our Supreme Court might be viewed as political and thus, it would be ignored.  THAT would be a very rare occurrence.  

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aztek
11 hours ago, pixiii said:

 

Wasn't the 2nd Amendment created for people to protect themselves against the Govt (covering police/authorities etc?)?  I would think there would eventually be a war between the citizens and the Govt.   A modern day war in the USA.  

that is exactly why they put 2nd there so it does not come to a war,  any gvmnt will be gone, if they start a war with population who is armed, that was the intent of 2nd. just like MAD we have today. 

and they were correct, stand off at Nevada ranch proved it.  as soon as armed supporters of the farmer came, BLM  left the ranch and never came back.   

that is exactly why gvmnt wants to remove guns,  they do not really care about anyone's life. just their own, and their power. if they did they would at least try to address 250k deaths a year due to medical mistakes alone,  that is more than guns kill, over more then 10 years. in all shootings.

Edited by aztek
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psyche101
On 7/24/2019 at 5:51 PM, pixiii said:

Yes absolutely!  The point I was making was that you can ban guns all you like, but at the end of the day, if a person wants to get a gun so badly, they'll get a gun.  Don't get me wrong, I'm glad NZ has taken the step to do a buy-back scheme like we did in Oz all those years ago now.  Lord knows, NZ has been through a lot over the past decade and I hope this helps people feel somewhat safer especially after that last tragedy.  :)  

Still really hard to get a gun on the Black Market. If one wants it for crime, you need over 10k so the crime becomes pointless and if one wants to commit a heinous act, it's not like a flea market. Your just as likely to end up ripped of or beaten within an inch of your life.. Or worse. Regulation  works. 

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Gwynbleidd
19 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Still really hard to get a gun on the Black Market. If one wants it for crime, you need over 10k so the crime becomes pointless and if one wants to commit a heinous act, it's not like a flea market. Your just as likely to end up ripped of or beaten within an inch of your life.. Or worse. Regulation  works. 

I'm not referring to the average person here.  Regulation does work and the average law abiding citizen respects that.

Criminals don't.  If you're a criminal, you'll find a way, no matter the cost or the consequences, because you're a "criminal".  You'll rob, steal, bash, hurt others, commit whatever illegal crimes you have to, without a care or thought of others simply to obtain what they want.  And if guns aren't available to them, they get creative with their weapon of choice.  This and much more has been discussed in the Mass Shootings thread if you're interested. :) 

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DieChecker
23 hours ago, Professor Buzzkill said:

If you turn up with a firearm and no license at a buy back event you won't be given any money.

The PM is  not targeting criminals, possibly because, as she already stated she "has a responsibility to the taxpayers ". 

 

Pitty she doesnt feel the same responsibility when implementing new taxes

So you need proof of ownership to sell back the gun?

Are they planning on just doing raids on homes to get the illegal ones? Or is the assumption there are no illegal ones?

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psyche101
3 hours ago, pixiii said:

I'm not referring to the average person here.  Regulation does work and the average law abiding citizen respects that.

I'm not either. Where gun regulations are in place the average person doesn't try to obtain a weapon illegally. 

Quote

Criminals don't.  If you're a criminal, you'll find a way, no matter the cost or the consequences, because you're a "criminal".  You'll rob, steal, bash, hurt others, commit whatever illegal crimes you have to, without a care or thought of others simply to obtain what they want. 

What is the point of that when you need to raise over 15k for a gun where they must be obtained through the Black Market? If you already have the cash, there's no reason for a crime is there. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/business/black-market-guns-triple-in-price-20141013-115f08.html

Quote

And if guns aren't available to them, they get creative with their weapon of choice. 

I can't see that actually happening though. Australia reguled guns decades ago. In the meantime nobody has been driving trucks into schools or bombing public places.

Quote

This and much more has been discussed in the Mass Shootings thread if you're interested. :) 

Not really, it's on the US section isn't it? If I hear about 2a or the cold dead hands line again, I'd probably puke. The bravado that guns give to those with gun culture is just stupid. I've seen posters say if they caught a teen stealing an XBox they would kill them, and one poster said the deaths of the school children are justified to maintain the freedom to own guns. I can't stomach that level of stupidity any more. I would like to see what these clowns would actually do if regulation (which IMHO doesn't not contravene the precious religion of the 2nd) was introduced. 

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DieChecker
On 8/6/2019 at 1:45 PM, Professor Buzzkill said:

Looks like there's about to be a flood of firearms on the black market. All criminals have to do is offer retail replacement cost and they would have already out bid the government. 

How much quiet coastline is there? This could be a small business, by going to Indonesia, or Philippines, buy cheap guns, bring them back and sell to government with fake papers for 10 times what you paid. There would be shipping expenses, of course, but once you own the ship....

Edited by DieChecker
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Golden Duck
4 hours ago, pixiii said:

I'm not referring to the average person here.  Regulation does work and the average law abiding citizen respects that.

Criminals don't.  If you're a criminal, you'll find a way, no matter the cost or the consequences, because you're a "criminal".  You'll rob, steal, bash, hurt others, commit whatever illegal crimes you have to, without a care or thought of others simply to obtain what they want.  And if guns aren't available to them, they get creative with their weapon of choice.  This and much more has been discussed in the Mass Shootings thread if you're interested. :) 

I wouldn't discount the criminal from considering risk/reward.  Dr Karl gives has reported on a fairly famous study on why Robbing banks is bad business.  But you might find the insights and trends of the below articles of interested.

And, don't forget that the Christchurch shooter is Australian.  He relocated to New Zealand to obtain the weapons and practice with them. 

This year's Darwin shooting was carried it with a weapon banned in 1996 - this first time in 23 years.

Quote

How the economics of robbery are changing

Crooks are stealing fewer cars and burgling fewer homes, but making off with pricier swag

https://www.economist.com/britain/2017/12/16/how-the-economics-of-robbery-are-changing

 

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Gwynbleidd

 

43 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I'm not either. Where gun regulations are in place the average person doesn't try to obtain a weapon illegally.

That's correct, one should hope not.

44 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

What is the point of that when you need to raise over 15k for a gun where they must be obtained through the Black Market? If you already have the cash, there's no reason for a crime is there. 

This depends on what crime it is or what crime they're "protecting".  

46 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Thanks, great article!  Especially this bit....

Quote

"Obviously illegal importations are still happening; it's just simply at the moment they aren't being detected. Whether people are becoming more sophisticated in their methods we don't know."

Yes this confirms that guns are still being imported illegally and they aren't being detected.

47 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I can't see that actually happening though. Australia reguled guns decades ago. In the meantime nobody has been driving trucks into schools or bombing public places.

Yes I remember it very clearly when Australia regulated their guns laws beginning in 1996.  However I disagree with your statement that nobody has been driving trucks into schools or bombing public places. 

Did you forget about these crimes already?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-23/flinders-st-car-attack-saeed-noori-charged-by-police/9283876

and...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2017_Melbourne_car_attack   to this.... https://www.sbs.com.au/news/melbourne-rampage-driver-sorry-in-court-but-says-long-sentence-won-t-fix-it

I firmly stand by my argument that no matter how strict gun laws are, guns will always find a way into the country as this next link clearly shows.

Quote

More than 100 illegally imported guns still missing in Australia as fears grow they are in hands of underworld figures

https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/current-affairs/more-than-100-illegally-imported-guns-still-missing-in-australia-as-fears-grow-they-are-in-hands-of-underworld-figures/news-story/f1085f6f3b0d51452adc870258fadfef

MORE than 100 guns that were illegally imported into Sydney through the mail five years ago remain unaccounted for and “could be anywhere” on the streets of Australia. It’s all thanks to three men who managed to smuggle more than 130 “Glocks” — a brand of semiautomatic pistol — into Australia through an ingeniously brazen plot through customs and Australia Post. Ever since their arrest in 2012, the three men have never given a statement to police. Just 24 of the illegal guns, sold on the black market for a price tag of between $10,000-$20,000, have been located by authorities as Four Corners reporter Ben Knight warns “it’s not just Sydneysiders” that should be worried. “The black market in guns exists across the country,” Knight told news.com.au. “They [police] only find these guns as they turn up, whether they’re raiding a meth lab or through received intelligence. It’s impossible to know [where they are], the point is they could be anywhere.”

The guns, designed in Austria, are meant for law enforcement officers, but now they lie in the hands of Sydney’s biggest underworld figures.  In three months in 2013, there were 25 shooting incidents across Sydney.  Since, Knight says the gun spree has spread south, with Melbourne seeing a rise in crime not seen since the early 2000s.  “At the time, Sydney was in the grip of an outbreak of driveby shootings, fortunately that’s subsided but if you look at Melbourne, the number of gun homicides is back to what is was in the Underbelly wars.”

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