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Still Waters

New Zealanders hand over guns in Christchurch

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Golden Duck
56 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

How much quiet coastline is there? This could be a small business, by going to Indonesia, or Philippines, buy cheap guns, bring them back and sell to government with fake papers for 10 times what you paid. There would be shipping expenses, of course, but once you own the ship....

Former NZ Prime Minister tweeted this...

EBGjHavUIAARkyv.jpg:large

Australian and NZ Customs have a high level of cooperation.  Serial numbers of weapons imports are recorded on Import Declarations in Australia. I wouldn't be surprised if NZ was the same.

Some firearms vendors may also be a Customs Warehouse; that is, the can defer duty liability until a commodity enters the local market.    NZ may, or may not, have the same system.  Again, I wouldn't be surprised if I do.

Also NZ Consumer Protection laws are fairly strong.  Australia implemented similar laws (and somewhat aped NZ) c. 2010.  Statutary warranty mandates that products should last for a reasonable amount of time - often longer than that express by the manufacturer.  The consumer does not have an absolute burden for providing an original proof-of-purchase when seeking a remedy.  They can provide other proof such as bank statement.  I well run business that implements good record keeping can verify purchases in their own systems.  It has been my experience that retailers do this.  For a gun shop, showing that you are well organised would show you less of a risk and would be help proving your compliance whenever it was assessed.  Again, I wouldn't be surprised, if gun shops knew exactly which weapons were sold to whom, for whatever the mandatory record keeping period is. Then there is NZ Inland Revenue - Goods and Services Tax returns have to be filed at least every six months.

That black market pay off would want to be big.  

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Gwynbleidd
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

I wouldn't discount the criminal from considering risk/reward.  Dr Karl gives has reported on a fairly famous study on why Robbing banks is bad business.  But you might find the insights and trends of the below articles of interested.

And, don't forget that the Christchurch shooter is Australian.  He relocated to New Zealand to obtain the weapons and practice with them. 

This year's Darwin shooting was carried it with a weapon banned in 1996 - this first time in 23 years.

Oh wow I haven't seen Dr Karl in years! :lol:  Great to see he's still going, I remember him on the Bert Newton Midday Show! 

Yes, the crimes I'm thinking of with big $$$ involved are the drug related crimes where a crime syndicate is running a meth operation for example, networked across the country.  Big dollar crimes, where money isn't an issue, nor is buying blackmarket weapons to protect the "operation".  As I said in my previous post, it depends on the crime and that last link I provided is a perfect example of how some just aren't afraid of importing guns and spreading them all around the country, even with our strict gun laws in place.  This is my whole point! :lol:  I'm not pro-gun at all.  In fact, I've never held a gun in my life, nor will I ever hold one.  Except in a video game maybe but I'm not a big fan of fps games. ;) 

Edited by pixiii
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Professor Buzzkill
1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

So you need proof of ownership to sell back the gun?

Are they planning on just doing raids on homes to get the illegal ones? Or is the assumption there are no illegal ones?

You dont need proof of ownership, just a firearms license suitable for the class of the firearm. 

 

No news on if there will be police checks of firearms owners, but I expect a visit. I have been visited twice in the past to check my firearms are stored correctly, which is a requirement of holding a license.

 

It should be pointed out that there is no right to firearms in Nz, nor can you ever use one in self defense without expecting the full weight of the law against you. All firearms must be locked in a safe place, aproved by a police vetting officer. Handgun ownership is basically illegal now, but had extreme restrictions before the law change which made handguns vary rare.

 

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Gwynbleidd
1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Not really, it's on the US section isn't it? If I hear about 2a or the cold dead hands line again, I'd probably puke. The bravado that guns give to those with gun culture is just stupid. I've seen posters say if they caught a teen stealing an XBox they would kill them, and one poster said the deaths of the school children are justified to maintain the freedom to own guns. I can't stomach that level of stupidity any more. I would like to see what these clowns would actually do if regulation (which IMHO doesn't not contravene the precious religion of the 2nd) was introduced. 

Yes, it is n the US section and yes, it's quite an emotional topic for Americans right now which is very understandable.  I believe your assumption that the bravado that guns give to those with gun culture is unfair and I'll explain why..... 

My Husband was raised in the US where the place would definitely constitute as "gun culture".  He was trained from a very young age to respect guns and that they were to be used as a tool for pest control, hunting and protection from animals etc.  Not too different from our own culling here of kangaroos, deer and wild pigs.  I wanted to make this point to demonstrate that not all Americans are gun toting maniacs and only see guns with the classic, "I will defend myself and family at all costs" and "Nobody will take away my 2nd Amendment rights" yada yada yada.  I just understand that some US citizens feel very differently to us here and I respect that.  We have a very different culture here and I feel fortunate for it, especially of late. :)    

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Golden Duck
15 minutes ago, pixiii said:

Oh wow I haven't seen Dr Karl in years! :lol:  Great to see he's still going, I remember him on the Bert Newton Midday Show! 

Yes, the crimes I'm thinking of with big $$$ involved are the drug related crimes where a crime syndicate is running a meth operation for example, networked across the country.  Big dollar crimes, where money isn't an issue, nor is buying blackmarket weapons to protect the "operation".  As I said in my previous post, it depends on the crime and that last link I provided is a perfect example of how some just aren't afraid of importing guns and spreading them all around the country, even with our strict gun laws in place.  This is my whole point! :lol:  I'm not pro-gun at all.  In fact, I've never held a gun in my life, nor will I ever hold one.  Except in a video game maybe but I'm not a big fan of fps games. ;) 

Yeah and in this case you're talking about an operation where a $20k gun is financially viable - where the payoff is in the millions.  It's the kind of business that doesn't cross paths with the ordinary public.  Indeed, the gun smuggling operation only came to light by a chance encounter with an ordinary citizen asking a domestic argument to be quiet.  If the criminals had simply moved to keep out of the public view the operation could still be going.

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Professor Buzzkill
1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

How much quiet coastline is there? This could be a small business, by going to Indonesia, or Philippines, buy cheap guns, bring them back and sell to government with fake papers for 10 times what you paid. There would be shipping expenses, of course, but once you own the ship....

And when the police question why there are hundreds of weapons declared by the same license holder? I dont think anyone would risk doing this. Gun dealers have been told to ask their suppliers to take the stock back and are not part of the regular compensation events

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Gwynbleidd
1 minute ago, Golden Duck said:

Yeah and in this case you're talking about an operation where a $20k gun is financially viable - where the payoff is in the millions.  It's the kind of business that doesn't cross paths with the ordinary public.  Indeed, the gun smuggling operation only came to light by a chance encounter with an ordinary citizen asking a domestic argument to be quiet.  If the criminals had simply moved to keep out of the public view the operation could still be going.

Yes that's exactly right!  I really don't know how they'd ever be able to stop this type of behaviour to be honest.  It was probably lucky they managed to catch those guys, but it seemed they thought there were untouchable too after carrying out this sort of crime for many many years by the sounds of it.  :( 

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Golden Duck
8 minutes ago, pixiii said:

Yes that's exactly right!  I really don't know how they'd ever be able to stop this type of behaviour to be honest.  It was probably lucky they managed to catch those guys, but it seemed they thought there were untouchable too after carrying out this sort of crime for many many years by the sounds of it.  :( 

I don't find it as surprising considering Australia Post were involved.  The posties I've known aren't the same as the Customs guys I've known.  The border Customs guys seemed to live for finding contraband; but, there was always a resentment for seeing colleagues do well promotion.  A mix of public servant and quasi law enforcement - even though they are law enforcement.  It boggles the mind how cunning the corrupt Customs would need to be.  You know, Internal Affairs has KPI targets too.

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Golden Duck
4 hours ago, pixiii said:

 

That's correct, one should hope not.

This depends on what crime it is or what crime they're "protecting".  

Thanks, great article!  Especially this bit....

Yes this confirms that guns are still being imported illegally and they aren't being detected.

Yes I remember it very clearly when Australia regulated their guns laws beginning in 1996.  However I disagree with your statement that nobody has been driving trucks into schools or bombing public places. 

Did you forget about these crimes already?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-23/flinders-st-car-attack-saeed-noori-charged-by-police/9283876

and...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2017_Melbourne_car_attack   to this.... https://www.sbs.com.au/news/melbourne-rampage-driver-sorry-in-court-but-says-long-sentence-won-t-fix-it

I firmly stand by my argument that no matter how strict gun laws are, guns will always find a way into the country as this next link clearly shows.

https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/current-affairs/more-than-100-illegally-imported-guns-still-missing-in-australia-as-fears-grow-they-are-in-hands-of-underworld-figures/news-story/f1085f6f3b0d51452adc870258fadfef

MORE than 100 guns that were illegally imported into Sydney through the mail five years ago remain unaccounted for and “could be anywhere” on the streets of Australia. It’s all thanks to three men who managed to smuggle more than 130 “Glocks” — a brand of semiautomatic pistol — into Australia through an ingeniously brazen plot through customs and Australia Post. Ever since their arrest in 2012, the three men have never given a statement to police. Just 24 of the illegal guns, sold on the black market for a price tag of between $10,000-$20,000, have been located by authorities as Four Corners reporter Ben Knight warns “it’s not just Sydneysiders” that should be worried. “The black market in guns exists across the country,” Knight told news.com.au. “They [police] only find these guns as they turn up, whether they’re raiding a meth lab or through received intelligence. It’s impossible to know [where they are], the point is they could be anywhere.”

The guns, designed in Austria, are meant for law enforcement officers, but now they lie in the hands of Sydney’s biggest underworld figures.  In three months in 2013, there were 25 shooting incidents across Sydney.  Since, Knight says the gun spree has spread south, with Melbourne seeing a rise in crime not seen since the early 2000s.  “At the time, Sydney was in the grip of an outbreak of driveby shootings, fortunately that’s subsided but if you look at Melbourne, the number of gun homicides is back to what is was in the Underbelly wars.”

https://www.abc.net.au/4corners/gun-runners-promo/8518600

This was a pretty interesting episode of Four Corners. Towards the end it juxtaposes the two conflicting goals of Customs.  It gives an insight of how important risk assessment and targeting is.

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DieChecker
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Professor Buzzkill said:

And when the police question why there are hundreds of weapons declared by the same license holder? I dont think anyone would risk doing this. Gun dealers have been told to ask their suppliers to take the stock back and are not part of the regular compensation events

I suppose you bring them in a dozen or so at a time. If you can make 10,000 each, it will not require many to make a fair bit of money.

Maybe if you have multiple IDs, then you have multiple licenses? Or does that have good security? Finger prints and such?

We do screenings here in US, but there are a lot of shady dealers, and off the books guns sold at gun shows.

Someone with hundreds of guns here in the US really wouldn't raise many eyebrows? My dad has probably 25 or 30 guns. Rifles, shotguns, pistols, muzzleloaders.... And he's basically lower middle class. Rural people often own a lot of guns. And I believe around 20% of the population is still rural.

Edited by DieChecker
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psyche101
19 hours ago, pixiii said:

That's correct, one should hope not.

And its why we don't have the same problems. 

Quote

This depends on what crime it is or what crime they're "protecting". 

Exactly my point. One won't spend 15 to 20k on a gun to steal an xbox from your home or rob you in the street. Not too handy for school shootings or public places either. 

Quote

Thanks, great article!  Especially this bit....

Yes this confirms that guns are still being imported illegally and they aren't being detected.

If they are being imported through legal channels which I very much doubt. 

Is it not impressive that they do know how many are here, and that they reside in the careful protection of figures that don't cross paths with the general public? 

You seem to have missed my point though. Which was the Black Market guns are very hard to get. And that's if you have the contacts to get there in the first place unscathed and have wads of cash. 

Quote

Yes I remember it very clearly when Australia regulated their guns laws beginning in 1996.  However I disagree with your statement that nobody has been driving trucks into schools or bombing public places. 

Did you forget about these crimes already?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-23/flinders-st-car-attack-saeed-noori-charged-by-police/9283876

and...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2017_Melbourne_car_attack   to this.... https://www.sbs.com.au/news/melbourne-rampage-driver-sorry-in-court-but-says-long-sentence-won-t-fix-it

I firmly stand by my argument that no matter how strict gun laws are, guns will always find a way into the country as this next link clearly shows.

I honestly think your argument is greatly exaggerated. I didn't even hear about the 2nd incident to be honest. It resulted in none dead. Would you not see that as a failed attempt on the perpetrators behalf thanks to our gun laws? Imagine if these guys had access to automatic weapons like they would in the States. How bad would these incidents have been? 2 more Port Arthur's?

No school children being shot in schools is a big one here, and the greatest effort in 24 years to attack the general public has resulted in 6 deaths? More than that die in most gun related attacks in the US in a day. 

How has vun regulation not made it exceedingly difficult to harm the public  and isn't the country a much safer place as a result? Guns have not been replaced by bombs and cars. We had a gun massacre ever year for over a decade leading up to Port Arthur. We haven't had a bomb, vehicle or school attack ever since. 

Quote

https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/current-affairs/more-than-100-illegally-imported-guns-still-missing-in-australia-as-fears-grow-they-are-in-hands-of-underworld-figures/news-story/f1085f6f3b0d51452adc870258fadfef

MORE than 100 guns that were illegally imported into Sydney through the mail five years ago remain unaccounted for and “could be anywhere” on the streets of Australia. It’s all thanks to three men who managed to smuggle more than 130 “Glocks” — a brand of semiautomatic pistol — into Australia through an ingeniously brazen plot through customs and Australia Post. Ever since their arrest in 2012, the three men have never given a statement to police. Just 24 of the illegal guns, sold on the black market for a price tag of between $10,000-$20,000, have been located by authorities as Four Corners reporter Ben Knight warns “it’s not just Sydneysiders” that should be worried. “The black market in guns exists across the country,” Knight told news.com.au. “They [police] only find these guns as they turn up, whether they’re raiding a meth lab or through received intelligence. It’s impossible to know [where they are], the point is they could be anywhere.”

The guns, designed in Austria, are meant for law enforcement officers, but now they lie in the hands of Sydney’s biggest underworld figures.  In three months in 2013, there were 25 shooting incidents across Sydney.  Since, Knight says the gun spree has spread south, with Melbourne seeing a rise in crime not seen since the early 2000s.  “At the time, Sydney was in the grip of an outbreak of driveby shootings, fortunately that’s subsided but if you look at Melbourne, the number of gun homicides is back to what is was in the Underbelly wars.”

Major underworld figures though. 

And the weapons were not imported illegally. They were brought in by authorities and stolen in home ground. And they know what's here, and I would wager the police have a good idea who has them. 

That's not putting guns into the hands of criminals. It's a highly sought commodity for self protection amongst the people who are already breaking laws at a high level. Not the public. Not school children you and I won't be shot by one of those guns and they aren't doing to be used for house robberies. It's not like gun regulation hasn't been a major success. And the average criminals who we have to worry about have been disarmed. 

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psyche101
18 hours ago, pixiii said:

Yes, it is n the US section and yes, it's quite an emotional topic for Americans right now which is very understandable.  I believe your assumption that the bravado that guns give to those with gun culture is unfair and I'll explain why..... 

My Husband was raised in the US where the place would definitely constitute as "gun culture".  He was trained from a very young age to respect guns and that they were to be used as a tool for pest control, hunting and protection from animals etc.  Not too different from our own culling here of kangaroos, deer and wild pigs.  I wanted to make this point to demonstrate that not all Americans are gun toting maniacs and only see guns with the classic, "I will defend myself and family at all costs" and "Nobody will take away my 2nd Amendment rights" yada yada yada.  I just understand that some US citizens feel very differently to us here and I respect that.  We have a very different culture here and I feel fortunate for it, especially of late. :)    

That doesn't sound like 'gun culture' to me. As you say it sounds like any rural situation. I don't see it as related to a person with an automatic weapon for what is claimed to be self defence. Or the Americans who got behind that murderer Drejka in defence of gun laws, or the nutters preaching 2a. No, I agree not all Americans are gun toting maniacs, but they also tend to be in favour of better regulation too. I've had some great discussions with some very responsible American posters who I respect. But there are also a lot of people like the ones I mentioned above. That's who is holding America back IMHO. I went to a clay target range a few weeks ago. When I arrived immediately I had several people who recognise I was new and came straight up to me telling me how the range has never had an accident and that 'guns have a bad name because of America'. Its the ones on their soapboxes preaching the 2nd that I find are the most unstable regarding the culture. 

Do you think your personal relationship might inspire you to take a softer stance against gun culture? 

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aztek

can you bring diy slamfire shotgun? we had people make those guns, out of 2x4 and a plumbing pipe just to get paid during buyback.

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openozy

The way I see it,if almost every home has a firearm,it means more mentally ill,psychotic and drug affected people will have access to them in times of an episode,which equals more senseless killings.And I am far from being a supporter of a nanny state.

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Professor Buzzkill
On 8/10/2019 at 6:49 AM, aztek said:

can you bring diy slamfire shotgun? we had people make those guns, out of 2x4 and a plumbing pipe just to get paid during buyback.

You could but you wouldnt get paid for it. 

Maybe you could ask for 95% of the cost of a 2x4, but it would have to be in good condition 

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and then
On 8/8/2019 at 2:41 AM, psyche101 said:

Where gun regulations are in place the average person doesn't try to obtain a weapon illegally. 

I guess it all depends on your definition of "average person".  The percentage of gun owners that ever attempt to harm OTHERS is absolutely miniscule.  In a population of 300+ million people, the numbers are far less damning than drinking and driving or the medical mistakes mentioned earlier.  It gets down to allowing emotion to veto common sense and my rights do not end where the feelings of others begin.  

If the citizens of NZ are onboard with surrendering their weapons to their government then that is their choice.  America is definitely NOT NZ.  

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and then
On 8/9/2019 at 9:47 PM, openozy said:

The way I see it,if almost every home has a firearm,it means more mentally ill,psychotic and drug affected people will have access to them in times of an episode,which equals more senseless killings.And I am far from being a supporter of a nanny state.

Being free comes with a lot of responsibility.  A LOT of people don't want to have ANY responsibility for their actions.  Those people usually have some poor outcomes.  That's life.  If I had a mentally ill person in my home, I would take steps to secure a loaded firearm from them.  It would be no different than having children in the home OR living in a situation where children might come there at some point.  

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psyche101
2 hours ago, and then said:

I guess it all depends on your definition of "average person". 

In that particular instance, people who wish to purchase a weapon without criminal intent. They won't be trying to obtain weapons illegally. 

2 hours ago, and then said:

The percentage of gun owners that ever attempt to harm OTHERS is absolutely miniscule.

And yet over 100,000 each year are shot. 

https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics

I wouldn't consider that miniscule would you? 

2 hours ago, and then said:

  In a population of 300+ million people, the numbers are far less damning than drinking and driving or the medical mistakes mentioned earlier. 

What's that got to do with anything? Do people take cars to schools and drive up and down halls killing people? Do doctors sneak into movie theatres and leathally inject 50 or 100 people? 

2 hours ago, and then said:

It gets down to allowing emotion to veto common sense and my rights do not end where the feelings of others begin.  

Lives, mainly children's lives are the issue, not emotion. Refusing to better the situation will without doubt cost more lives including children. The way I see it, your so called rights will be the reason more children die, so supporting your so called right to me is inhumane and selfish. Their blood is on the hands of people like you IMHO. As long as the US maintains this unhealthy relationship with deadly weapons, kids will die because of it. 

2 hours ago, and then said:

If the citizens of NZ are onboard with surrendering their weapons to their government then that is their choice.  America is definitely NOT NZ.  

It most certainly isn't. It has much catching up to do. NZ is way out in front on this issue. The community is taking the situation into their own hands without weapons. The US takes on the situation as individuals whereas NZ has taken responsibility as a community. That's what I consider a strong, caring, thoughtful people trying to create a safer community better for everyone, not the individuals perception of what is better for the individual. 

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psyche101
2 hours ago, and then said:

Being free comes with a lot of responsibility.  A LOT of people don't want to have ANY responsibility for their actions.  Those people usually have some poor outcomes.  That's life.  If I had a mentally ill person in my home, I would take steps to secure a loaded firearm from them.  It would be no different than having children in the home OR living in a situation where children might come there at some point.  

New Zealand has taken on the responsibility as a community. Not individuals and their wants. That's as responsible as a national can possibly be. 

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joc
7 hours ago, psyche101 said:

New Zealand has taken on the responsibility as a community. Not individuals and their wants. That's as responsible as a national can possibly be. 

But the founding of America was all about the individuals and their wants. 

I don't really know the history of New Zealand...but I do know the history of the United States and it began with a big Bang of gunfire involving the British soldiers of King George.  

  Wyatt Earp cleaned up Tucson Arizona by taking guns at the City Limit.  But then again...Mayor Giulliani cleaned up New York City just by enforcing  existing laws which resulted in  a large number of guns off the streets.  

 

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DingoLingo

hmmm just had a thought.. with the 2a.. would it stop the gov putting a gun tax on new guns purchased? 

ie.. 

add in a gun tax that raises the price of the gun .. say a extra 2k.. that should limit it a bit .. do the same on ammo..

it wont impinge on the 2a on owning guns.. but would make it costly to.. 

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Golden Duck
4 hours ago, DingoLingo said:

hmmm just had a thought.. with the 2a.. would it stop the gov putting a gun tax on new guns purchased? 

ie.. 

add in a gun tax that raises the price of the gun .. say a extra 2k.. that should limit it a bit .. do the same on ammo..

it wont impinge on the 2a on owning guns.. but would make it costly to.. 

I reckon the opposite.  Put a price cap on guns. ;)

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Gwynbleidd
3 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

I reckon the opposite.  Put a price cap on guns. ;)

Oh my, I just read that as put a price on cap guns! :lol:   That brought back memories of when I was a kid and they had those cap guns which had some paper roll in it that had something that exploded or made a noise when the cap gun hit it - sorry I'm not good at explaining this am I.. :P 

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DieChecker
On 8/18/2019 at 8:44 PM, psyche101 said:

In that particular instance, people who wish to purchase a weapon without criminal intent. They won't be trying to obtain weapons illegally. 

And yet over 100,000 each year are shot. 

https://www.bradyunited.org/key-statistics

I wouldn't consider that miniscule would you? 

I find that data interesting, but it lacks context. How many of those shot, injured, killed... teenagers... were due to violent crime and gangs? Gangs, IMHO, are every bit as dangerous as guns. 

Australia has successful banned gangs pretty much, also, correct?

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Golden Duck
16 minutes ago, pixiii said:

Oh my, I just read that as put a price on cap guns! :lol:   That brought back memories of when I was a kid and they had those cap guns which had some paper roll in it that had something that exploded or made a noise when the cap gun hit it - sorry I'm not good at explaining this am I.. :P 

I remember. You could even set them of by scratching them with your finger nail... almost burnt myself. 

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