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Still Waters

New Zealanders hand over guns in Christchurch

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aztek
12 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

The guns on the Mexican black market are from across the border.

yea, the ones that Obama and holder smuggled, the rest are from Mexican army deserters, who take guns with them when joining cartels

Edited by aztek
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aztek

@Gunn really pointless to debate here, seems like people from that part of the world really hate america, and everything it stands for,  

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Golden Duck
2 hours ago, Gunn said:

Saaaaay what? Lol. Why does everybody who supports gun rights and the 2A gotta be all politically right wing to you, GD? You think all people who support the constitution are completely right leaning? Man, dude, that's really an unfair generalization.

Dude, I lean left on a lot of other issues and I'm registered as a Independent with a mix of some liberal and libertarian views. It's just that I happen to agree with my conservative friends here on the issue of gun control and the 2nd amendment and not on a lot on other issues with them. Because I just think there is a better way to take care of the mass shooting problem, other then going all momma Nazi and taking away people's guns away from law abiding citizens; like we are all a bunch of irresponsible kids with guns. And right now the FBI/local police have been showing us there is another way with preventive techniques, which apparently the FBI/local police haven't been enforcing our current laws in the first place. Come on, man, no need to stigmatize us all like that. You're reaching, dude.

 

OK fair enough. I'll cop that.

But you still have to wonder how USA allies would react to an insurgency.

And this FBI activity, is it encroaching on the first amendment. 

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Golden Duck
1 hour ago, aztek said:

@Gunn really pointless to debate here, seems like people from that part of the world really hate america, and everything it stands for,  

Really no pointless departing with preductably resort to getting emotive and projecting hate.

Have you thought of trying evening primrose oil. 

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DieChecker

Seems like no one has exact numbers, but of the 300 million guns in the US, probably about 100 million are rifles of some kind.

There are approximately 30 million US citizens that are regular yearly hunters. Which implies a moderate level of skill. And also about 30 million former military civilians. Most of whom are conservative regarding the 2A.

The primary military forces of the US is about 2 million active duty, and reserve, soldiers and another 1/2 million in National Guard.

So it assuming a conservative uprising would be 20+ million militia with hunting rifles, with scopes that will routinely hit at 1000 yards, with previous military training, against 2.5 million professional and part time soldiers.

The result would be overwhelming. The only thing the military would have is heavy weapons. And the thing with those is you eventually need to leave your tank, or plane, or need fuel. All of which need bases, which are surrounded by.... millions of rural gun owners.

Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Very.

ISIS never had more then 200,000 soldiers. And most of them were untrained. Imagine ISIS with 100 times as many men.

As to the military just blowing away huge chunks of population... even Syria, Libya, and Afghanistan, didnt do such. I cant imagine US soldiers obeying such horrible orders. Libya actually collapsed because the government forces WOULD NOT fire on the civilians that they were ordered to do so to.

No... I think a civilian uprising, armed with just rifles, would quickly cause any tyrannical government to collapse, and the military to flip sides. 

People who call it impossible dont understand the numbers, or are just completely incapable of seeing they are wrong.

This sort of happened in Egypt, but the military wanted control there anyway.

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aztek

do not forget about people on the inside , and extremely likely scenario of some of those planes, tanks .....captured and used against them, there is a lot of ex serviceman who know how to use those

 

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DingoLingo
On 8/29/2019 at 3:28 AM, aztek said:

@Gunn really pointless to debate here, seems like people from that part of the world really hate america, and everything it stands for,  

actually I dont hate america :) what I hate is the propaganda that comes out of america.. land of the free.. so on and so forth.. that just makes my eyes roll.. 

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aztek
19 minutes ago, DingoLingo said:

actually I dont hate america :) what I hate is the propaganda that comes out of america.. land of the free.. so on and so forth.. that just makes my eyes roll.. 

so you buy into propaganda, yea i noticed that, good for you, and your eyes, lol

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Michelle
18 minutes ago, DingoLingo said:

actually I dont hate america :) what I hate is the propaganda that comes out of america.. land of the free.. so on and so forth.. that just makes my eyes roll.. 

So you get CNN...

That's the only US news station in the hotels rooms in Europe and Canada I saw.

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Golden Duck
7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Seems like no one has exact numbers, but of the 300 million guns in the US, probably about 100 million are rifles of some kind.

There are approximately 30 million US citizens that are regular yearly hunters. Which implies a moderate level of skill. And also about 30 million former military civilians. Most of whom are conservative regarding the 2A.

The primary military forces of the US is about 2 million active duty, and reserve, soldiers and another 1/2 million in National Guard.

So it assuming a conservative uprising would be 20+ million militia with hunting rifles, with scopes that will routinely hit at 1000 yards, with previous military training, against 2.5 million professional and part time soldiers.

The result would be overwhelming. The only thing the military would have is heavy weapons. And the thing with those is you eventually need to leave your tank, or plane, or need fuel. All of which need bases, which are surrounded by.... millions of rural gun owners.

Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Very.

ISIS never had more then 200,000 soldiers. And most of them were untrained. Imagine ISIS with 100 times as many men.

As to the military just blowing away huge chunks of population... even Syria, Libya, and Afghanistan, didnt do such. I cant imagine US soldiers obeying such horrible orders. Libya actually collapsed because the government forces WOULD NOT fire on the civilians that they were ordered to do so to.

No... I think a civilian uprising, armed with just rifles, would quickly cause any tyrannical government to collapse, and the military to flip sides. 

People who call it impossible dont understand the numbers, or are just completely incapable of seeing they are wrong.

This sort of happened in Egypt, but the military wanted control there anyway.

That pretty much is what Noah Webster argued in his argument against standing armies.

If you have time your explanation of the Bonus Army would be appreciated.

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DingoLingo
4 hours ago, aztek said:

so you buy into propaganda, yea i noticed that, good for you, and your eyes, lol

oh hell no *LOL* 

 

4 hours ago, Michelle said:

So you get CNN...

That's the only US news station in the hotels rooms in Europe and Canada I saw.

ahh.. well we get CNN.. Fox.. etc here in australia :) after all.. good old Murdoch owns a large share of our news here .. so.. needles to say.. we get the fox dribble daily.. though.. his networks here have started to ridicule your Pres these days.. 

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DieChecker
5 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

That pretty much is what Noah Webster argued in his argument against standing armies.

If you have time your explanation of the Bonus Army would be appreciated.

I'd only argue that we need a standing army/military for power projection. But, that could be done almost entirely by ships and planes.

I dont usually see the reason behind invading and holding other nations. Especially if all we are going to do is rebuild everything, better then before, and hand it back to them, even though they hate us still.

We should maintain a National Guard, and that's it for ground troops. Call up volunteers if needed. I'm sure if someone actually invaded the US millions would volunteer.

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psyche101
13 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Seems like no one has exact numbers, but of the 300 million guns in the US, probably about 100 million are rifles of some kind.

There are approximately 30 million US citizens that are regular yearly hunters. Which implies a moderate level of skill. And also about 30 million former military civilians. Most of whom are conservative regarding the 2A.

The primary military forces of the US is about 2 million active duty, and reserve, soldiers and another 1/2 million in National Guard.

So it assuming a conservative uprising would be 20+ million militia with hunting rifles, with scopes that will routinely hit at 1000 yards, with previous military training, against 2.5 million professional and part time soldiers.

The result would be overwhelming. The only thing the military would have is heavy weapons. And the thing with those is you eventually need to leave your tank, or plane, or need fuel. All of which need bases, which are surrounded by.... millions of rural gun owners.

Is it likely? No. Is it possible? Very.

ISIS never had more then 200,000 soldiers. And most of them were untrained. Imagine ISIS with 100 times as many men.

As to the military just blowing away huge chunks of population... even Syria, Libya, and Afghanistan, didnt do such. I cant imagine US soldiers obeying such horrible orders. Libya actually collapsed because the government forces WOULD NOT fire on the civilians that they were ordered to do so to.

No... I think a civilian uprising, armed with just rifles, would quickly cause any tyrannical government to collapse, and the military to flip sides. 

People who call it impossible dont understand the numbers, or are just completely incapable of seeing they are wrong.

This sort of happened in Egypt, but the military wanted control there anyway.

I don't think the numbers count. ISIS did well because there was 200,000 not 2 million. Easy to hide a few many, hard to hide millions. 

With all due respect, are you sure ego isn't playing a part here? 

I don't see why another invading forces would keep anyone alive it's just a continued threat. It would be easier to wipe the majority out. Especially so if its a religious invasion and killing westerners is God's word. There's 7 billion people on the planet. There's no good reason to keep people alive. 

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DieChecker

The shooter was a Australian immigrant, right? Best ban those too... Just to be safe. Maybe best to ban all immigration. You can't be too safe....

Visiting would be OK, just not coming to live there.... :gun:

Edited by DieChecker

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psyche101
58 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

The shooter was a Australian immigrant, right? Best ban those too... Just to be safe. Maybe best to ban all immigration. You can't be too safe....

Visiting would be OK, just not coming to live there.... :gun:

Why do you only think in extremes? 

Do you feel there is sufficient reason to consider this fellow typical of Australian people in any way? Is that not like saying all Muslims are suicide bombers? 

The new bill requires registration every 5 years instead of every ten, and for doctors to report gun related injuries. How do you see that as a public threat? 

If as you say America's gun problems cannot be fixed by methods that worked in other countries, why do you feel gun culture is appropriate for other countries? 

Edited by psyche101
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third_eye

Recently I was fortunate enough to witness a little round of talk about the 'right to bear arms' and what it means and defined by the constitution, basically it was meant for the weapon of the day and not the modern military grade firearms of today. 

So, as far as the law goes, anything that is not a musket does not apply unless there's an amendment which states it as a right to carry military standard arms and munitions... 

Makes sense to me but hey,  I'm not an American... 

~

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aztek
4 hours ago, third_eye said:

Recently I was fortunate enough to witness a little round of talk about the 'right to bear arms' and what it means and defined by the constitution, basically it was meant for the weapon of the day and not the modern military grade firearms of today. 

 

and  freedom of speech is also only applies to means that existed in 1700s,  since no radio, tv, internet ,existed when bill of rights was signed, none of those should  be protected under 1st amendment, right?

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aztek
5 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Why do you only think in extremes? 

Do you feel there is sufficient reason to consider this fellow typical of Australian people in any way? Is that not like saying all Muslims are suicide bombers? 

The new bill requires registration every 5 years instead of every ten, and for doctors to report gun related injuries. How do you see that as a public threat? 

If as you say America's gun problems cannot be fixed by methods that worked in other countries, why do you feel gun culture is appropriate for other countries? 

how is it different from saying all gun owners are potential murderers? yet that is exactly what is going on.

hey, you have a rape tool between your legs,  how do we know you wont use it?

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Kismit
7 hours ago, aztek said:

New Zealand plans further restrictions to gun ownership

https://www.yahoo.com/news/zealand-plans-further-restrictions-gun-041246418.html

excellent news, now you can feel safer than ever.

Yes, it’s a registering of owners and guns, to track where our legitimate guns and owners are.

 It does not actually remove any rights or guns from responsible gun owners.

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joc
39 minutes ago, Kismit said:

Yes, it’s a registering of owners and guns, to track where our legitimate guns and owners are.

 It does not actually remove any rights or guns from responsible gun owners.

Of course the fear of many US gun owners is being in a data base.  Which makes it quite easy for the government to 'round up' guns if they found a way to disqualify the 2nd amendment.

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aztek
4 hours ago, Kismit said:

Yes, it’s a registering of owners and guns, to track where our legitimate guns and owners are.

 It does not actually remove any rights or guns from responsible gun owners.

you inability to see even a little bit ahead is astonishing.   

in your country , or NZ gun owners do NOT have that right,  never had, it is a privilege, in my country it IS a right.  i don't think you realize how right is different from a privilege.  

Edited by aztek

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aztek

but the truth is i do want your countries to keep restricting, removing, and putting every owner in a database,  you do not need guns, any guns. 

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aztek

meanwhile in Colorado , USA

'Gun-toting hippies' greet Boulder 'assault weapons' ban with mass noncompliance

BOULDER, Colorado — Boulder’s newly enacted “assault weapons” ban is meeting with stiff resistance from its “gun-toting hippies,” staunch liberals who also happen to be devoted firearms owners.

Only 342 “assault weapons,” or semiautomatic rifles, were certified by Boulder police before the Dec. 31 deadline, meaning there could be thousands of residents in the scenic university town of 107,000 in violation of the sweeping gun-control ordinance.

“I would say the majority of people I’ve talked to just aren’t complying because most people see this as a registry,” said Lesley Hollywood, executive director of the Colorado Second Amendment group Rally for Our Rights. “Boulder actually has a very strong firearms community.”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jan/3/boulder-colorado-assault-weapons-ban-met-mass-non-/

 

notice, those are not republicans or trump  supporters, but  LIBERALS, and for once i agree with them.

even liberals do buy into gun control BS, they can see ahead, and know what it will lead to. 

interesting thing, (well not really cuz i saw it coming long ago) it is not just ar15 and ak47, but ALL semiauto rifles, as well as pistols(99,9% of pistols are semi auto) and shotguns. 

Edited by aztek

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Kismit
5 hours ago, aztek said:

you inability to see even a little bit ahead is astonishing.   

in your country , or NZ gun owners do NOT have that right,  never had, it is a privilege, in my country it IS a right.  i don't think you realize how right is different from a privilege.  

And we are discussing how this effects New Zealand as a change in New Zealand and not America.

 I am very aware of the difference between rights and privilege. Anyone who has brought up children can see how differently they behave when taught something is a right or that something is a privilege.

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