My first New Earther!

[danydandan]

6 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

It's even more ridiculous if you take the Chinese and Hebrew calendars into account.

He also used the Julian Calendar too.

Also the Earth is 4.5 billion years old. So he was close to 100% wrong. Like 99.999% of a deviation here folks. That's a massive mistake.

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by danydandan

[Jodie.Lynne]

Some people have expressed the idea of "what's the big deal if YEC believe this? What's the harm?"

Well, to be a YEC, one must disregard archeology, paleontology, astronomy, and biology, for starters, because all these disciplines contradict their biblical world view.

If one can disregard those sciences, it isn't hard to ignore  others as well that disagree with your religious beliefs. Like vaccinations, blood transfusions, organ donation, and ecology.

Why conserve species, or protect wilderness areas? Why be concerned about the environment? God gave us dominion over the earth, so we needn't worry about it.

[Guyver]

On 7/13/2019 at 8:37 PM, DirtyDocMartens said:

Are you asking me that question? I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs, I'm just amazed and confounded by her ability to rationalize around factual information. And she's a friend of mine, by the way, I didn't criticize her views, we just had a friendly discussion about it then went on to a different subject. I'm bringing it up here because I don't want to hurt her feelings by harping on it, I'm just looking for insight into that worldview.

The proper term is young Earther, or most generally, Young Earth Creationist (YEC).  I’m sure you’ve had some good responses here, but to add to them, her mindset is most likely fundamentalist or Evangelical Christian.  She was probably raised in this belief and most likely attends church once or more each week.

When I was an Evangelical, I often attended three or even more church meetings or fellowships each week.  So, this is a cultural thing as well as religious worldview.

So, Evangelical Christians are the type who believe that one is going to hell unless they get saved by Jesus, or “born again.”  They basically believe that the entire world is evil, cursed by God if you will, as a result of Adams sin in the Garden of Eden.  They believe that this sin was passed down to all humans because the Bible says so.  It is the doctrine of original sin.  These people are highly i doctrinated and really believe what they are telling you.  They think the Bible is true and everything else is false, especially science.

They can be sincere and honest, good people.....like many Mormons you may meet.  

Anyway, they believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old because of Bible chronology which traces a lineage back to the first man, Adam.  As someone mentioned, it was Bishop Ussher who made this idea popular hundreds of years ago.  Hope that helps.

[cormac mac airt]

26 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

It might have to do with the judaic calendar, but I thought it was 5000.

According to their calendar Jews believe Creation/Adam/Eve/Garden of Eden occurred about 3761/60 BC.

cormac

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, Wes83 said:

When’s the last time a fellow sports fan you met at the game became a life long friend whom you actually developed a sincere friendship with?

when I was in high school we would actually meet up after the game for school rivalry fights, they were epic!

Sporting clubs.  You turn up to training, during the week, and turn up to play on the weekends.

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, danydandan said:

Some Catholic priest. Irish man too. James Ussher calculated it.

Edit: Actually he wasn't Catholic.

Protestant no doubt!

Edited July 15, 2019 by Golden Duck

[Golden Duck]

36 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Some people have expressed the idea of "what's the big deal if YEC believe this? What's the harm?"

Well, to be a YEC, one must disregard archeology, paleontology, astronomy, and biology, for starters, because all these disciplines contradict their biblical world view.

If one can disregard those sciences, it isn't hard to ignore  others as well that disagree with your religious beliefs. Like vaccinations, blood transfusions, organ donation, and ecology.

Why conserve species, or protect wilderness areas? Why be concerned about the environment? God gave us dominion over the earth, so we needn't worry about it.

That's why we codify what is, and isn't, acceptable behaviour.

[Jodie.Lynne]

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

That's why we codify what is, and isn't, acceptable behaviour.

Except, those who believe in their holy book's literal truth, define what is acceptable behavior, by what they interpret is their god's view of what is acceptable.

By ignoring/disregarding/denying science, it becomes so much easier to embrace things like racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia when one believes that they are amongst the 'favourites' of god.

[Golden Duck]

4 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Except, those who believe in their holy book's literal truth, define what is acceptable behavior, by what they interpret is their god's view of what is acceptable.

By ignoring/disregarding/denying science, it becomes so much easier to embrace things like racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia when one believes that they are amongst the 'favourites' of god.

Really, I expected you to know what codify means.

You've introduced examples of behaviour that are covered by law.  If there is too much scriptural influence in, for example, the US legislature that has been allowed to happen by significant numbers of US adults.  Adults unaffiliated with religion make up 23 per cent of the adult population but only account for 0.2 per cent of Congress.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/03/5-facts-about-the-religious-makeup-of-the-116th-congress/

If the religious alarmists - that purport to embrace science - embraced those simple numbers, you could mitigate the fear of religious dogma.  You wouldn't even need a politically affiliated campaign  - such as vote this or vote that - just the simple message of "VOTE!"

Here, in Australia, certain Government subsidies depend on keeping vaccinations up to date.  Even enrollment childcare depends on this.

Knowledge about evolution in day-to-day life is nothing more that trivia most people.  There may be an economic benefit in winning trivia contest - something a group known as the "Periodic Table Dancers" do regularly at my "local" - but not much more.

If you made access to fossil fuels dependent on knowledge of fossils you would see a change.

 

[Jodie.Lynne]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were discussing legal legislation, but what people believe.

U.S. senators and congressmen have gone on record as denying climate change, based on their religious beliefs.

If people wish to hold the belief that the world is slightly older than 6,000 years, and that Jesus is their co-pilot, that's fine by me.

BUT when their religious beliefs impact others and the world at large, that is a cause for concern, yes?

[Habitat]

5 hours ago, danydandan said:

iThat's what you gleamed from the OP?

Wow, I suppose you didn't feel a strong sense of superiority when you were writing and proof reading your post?

100%, I did see the post that way. And he droppred in his "superior" educational credentials, for added effect. Some people believe in lucky rabbit's feet, but no-one on this site reports on the results of cross-examining such people. The intent is clearly to "do a number" on all religious beliefs, by pointing to the plain silliness of fundamentalist creationism, as if that will thereby wrap up the argument. It is actually not a convincing argument, and further proof of that is that even the tellers of such stories, can't manage to convince themselves, or they'd have retired from such discussions. But when you have your head stuck up your arze, that can be a difficult realisation.

[Jon the frog]

On 7/13/2019 at 7:32 PM, DirtyDocMartens said:

I was talking to our receptionist today and found out she believes the Earth is 6000 years old. I've heard about these people, but this was my first discussion about it with an actual believer. I was stupified. I asked her what she thought of Neanderthals, but I don't she really knew what those are (or were). And apparently dinosaurs were on the ark, but not the big ones- she was a little vague on what happened to them. Astounding,  absolutely astounding.  I feel like I've just seen Bigfoot or some other extremely unlikely speciman. I have a degree in biology/ecology from a fairly prestigious university and I guess I've gotten used to being surrounded by people guided by reason rather than faith. Has anyone else had a similar experience?  And what was your reaction? 

One thing about it is that prehistory is the period that begins with the appearance of the human being, about five million years ago, and finishes with the invention of writing, about 6,000 years ago.

So new earther is calling the beginning of the world at the end of prehistory, it's not that bad in a sense.

[Golden Duck]

54 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I'm sorry, I didn't realize we were discussing legal legislation, but what people believe.

U.S. senators and congressmen have gone on record as denying climate change, based on their religious beliefs.

If people wish to hold the belief that the world is slightly older than 6,000 years, and that Jesus is their co-pilot, that's fine by me.

BUT when their religious beliefs impact others and the world at large, that is a cause for concern, yes?

I interpreted you post as basically saying that YEC was a gateway to adverse beliefs concerning ...

4 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

...  vaccinations, blood transfusions, organ donation, and ecology.  ...

These issues, and the one you subsequently introduced, all have laws concerning them.  Those laws are enforced regardless of beliefs.  With the legal protections established, I wonder how preaching an imaginary entity banishing someone to an imaginary place in a non-existent after-life can cause offence.

I also wonder why people ask actor Hugh Laurie for medical advice.  Can this solely be attributed to religious affiliation?  

Maybe a lot of people have problems with numbers

 

 

[Habitat]

1 hour ago, Golden Duck said:

I wonder how preaching an imaginary entity banishing someone to an imaginary place in a non-existent after-life can cause offence.

It isn't difficult to see why offence is taken, because it is a annoying reminder of their own doubts, whoever can carry the numbers in a democracy, wins, laws are not made by religious decree, in most places.

[+Pettytalk]

10 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Ussher calculated the 6000 year date from adding up all the generations of the patriarchs in the OT.

He established that earth was created at nightfall on October 22nd, 4004 BC.

What timely accuracy? Was a Swiss watch used?

Actually those early Christian fathers that relied on Plato for divine information kind of dropped the ball for the future church leaders, as they forgot to fault a very wise sage, Solon. Solon tried the same thing using Phoroneus instead of Adam.

 Archbishop Ussher most likely got the idea from Plato. But as usual, the Christians are in the same boat as the academic atheists, when it comes to the reality of Atlantis.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html 

Following is an excerpt from the Timaeus.

To this city came Solon, and was received there with great honour; he asked the priests who were most skilful in such matters, about antiquity, and made the discovery that neither he nor any other Hellene knew anything worth mentioning about the times of old. On one occasion, wishing to draw them on to speak of antiquity, he began to tell about the most ancient things in our part of the world-about Phoroneus, who is called "the first man," and about Niobe; and after the Deluge, of the survival of Deucalion and Pyrrha; and he traced the genealogy of their descendants, and reckoning up the dates, tried to compute how many years ago the events of which he was speaking happened.

[+Pettytalk]

10 hours ago, Guyver said:

When I was an Evangelical, I often attended three or even more church meetings or fellowships each week.  

Was that before you got your degree at Solomon's Higher Learning Institute of Wisdom?

If this really be Solomon and divine inspiration, the authentic author, then everything being discussed here about the age of the earth believed by some is meaningless.

It seems that it was apparent to those who labored with wisdom, and for the Lord back in those times, that they already knew that the earth was really, really old. As of necessity, "forever" must needs go back much more than the approximate 6,000 years suggested by some genealogy-foolish manipulators of the Law....much further back, and further back still. Forever is a very long time in either direction, past or future.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1&version=NIV

Ecclesiastes 1 New International Version (NIV)

Everything Is Meaningless

1 The words of the Teacher,^[a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:

² “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
    says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
    Everything is meaningless.”

³ What do people gain from all their labors
    at which they toil under the sun?
⁴ Generations come and generations go,
    but the earth remains forever.
⁵ The sun rises and the sun sets,
    and hurries back to where it rises.
⁶ The wind blows to the south
    and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
    ever returning on its course.
⁷ All streams flow into the sea,
    yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
    there they return again.
⁸ All things are wearisome,
    more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
    nor the ear its fill of hearing.
⁹ What has been will be again,
    what has been done will be done again;
    there is nothing new under the sun.
¹⁰ Is there anything of which one can say,
    “Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
    it was here before our time.
¹¹ No one remembers the former generations,
    and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
    by those who follow them.

Wisdom Is Meaningless

¹² I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. ¹³ I applied my mind to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under the heavens. What a heavy burden God has laid on mankind! ¹⁴ I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

¹⁵ What is crooked cannot be straightened;
    what is lacking cannot be counted.

¹⁶ I said to myself, “Look, I have increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge.” ¹⁷ Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.

¹⁸ For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
    the more knowledge, the more grief.

[+Liquid Gardens]

9 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

I interpreted you post as basically saying that YEC was a gateway to adverse beliefs concerning ...

These issues, and the one you subsequently introduced, all have laws concerning them.  Those laws are enforced regardless of beliefs.

I'm not following, what does what the laws say have to do with it, you're not under the impression that those are never broken?  In the US we have some laws concerning vaccinations for example but various science-challenged people are working hard to get exceptions to that.  We have laws that require parents to seek medical attention for their children regardless of whether they think that merely praying for healing is sufficient, and kids have been harmed and died as a result and the parents prosecuted, but that's of course too little too late as far as the child is concerned. 

I'm pretty sure it's not exceptionally controversial that those whose beliefs are this extreme may have other beliefs, if not specifically YEC, that are in conflict with science or unsupported, so I'm not sure what you are objecting to, if you are.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Liquid Gardens

[+Liquid Gardens]

9 hours ago, Habitat said:

The intent is clearly to "do a number" on all religious beliefs, by pointing to the plain silliness of fundamentalist creationism,

And if they were just criticizing fundamentalist creationism, what would the comments look like?  Pretty much the same.

9 hours ago, Habitat said:

But when you have your head stuck up your arze, that can be a difficult realisation.

Finally, a subject that I have no cause to doubt your thorough experience with.

[Habitat]

10 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

And if they were just criticizing fundamentalist creationism, what would the comments look like?  Pretty much the same.

Oh, I think anyone that hasn't been living in a hermit's cave, is well aware  that there are people around who do hold these fundamentalist creationist beliefs, any expression of surprise about it, is just a dramatic device to advance the plot, where people  educated at "prestigious' universities are clearly able to identify the total wrong-headedness of religious belief, generally. Nothing in doubt here, this chap is trying to put the skids under all religion, in his own head, like the rest of his ilk, here, but like them hasn't succeeded. Or people like you would have melted away from such discussion.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

On 7/13/2019 at 7:32 PM, DirtyDocMartens said:

I was talking to our receptionist today and found out she believes the Earth is 6000 years old. I've heard about these people, but this was my first discussion about it with an actual believer. I was stupified. I asked her what she thought of Neanderthals, but I don't she really knew what those are (or were). And apparently dinosaurs were on the ark, but not the big ones- she was a little vague on what happened to them. Astounding,  absolutely astounding.  I feel like I've just seen Bigfoot or some other extremely unlikely speciman. I have a degree in biology/ecology from a fairly prestigious university and I guess I've gotten used to being surrounded by people guided by reason rather than faith. Has anyone else had a similar experience?  And what was your reaction? 

Hi DirtyDocMartens!   Love the name!   

As a bookseller for almost 20 years in two states, two different companies, and four locations, I have seen my fair share of them in customers looking for bibles. (I have also heard stories from other booksellers) But when I am actually talking to them, I am extremely stupefied myself. Especially, for me who grew up secular with no religious reading or meetings in it. As someone working in retail, I have had to practice to just not show any reaction to it and still be professional in helping to find what the customer is looking for. In which, that can be difficult if I don’t understand the subject matter of what they are looking for in a book. 

(I’m tying this in to New Earthers and their beliefs, considering the very definite ways they feel strongly that it’s the truth in how they believe it.) 

So normally, when I’m asked by those feeling definite of these ideals, considering I could either look it up in the system and/or ask a fellow bookseller who is knowledgeable in the subject (which I have done many times)   I am amazed though at some who still believe “God is the author” and that it’s completely factual as a non-fiction book. But, I keep my thoughts on that to myself. (I’m tying this in to those who feel the same way about New Earth thoughts)

Here’s the problem on that as a bookseller though( I’m not anymore, I work somewhere else now) some of these customers in the varying places I have worked) some people react negatively to my lack of knowledge and understanding to this. (I’m just trying to help them find it and want to be honest to them  ) I have actually had one lady yell at me for not knowing and to “read my bible” which I had to bite my tongue from telling her that I had no bible to read, and it’s my right to not own one all my life. *shrugs* 

I don’t know, if there is a curiosity that you have of those who question your understanding of this subject and how they react to that, ( I know, unlike your friend and colleague) but I thought I give an experience of mine that might also bring up those who feel negative about what others think in not believing what they believe. I do feel, it’s not up to me to change their beliefs, but it gets me that some do think they have a right to try to not only be harassing toward me, but feel they should change my beliefs.    

How would one feel about that? Does one have a right to defend themselves? *shrugs*. (When, it’s the other way around and your outlook is trying to be changed?)

Though, I must add, I have also had individuals who strongly believe in their beliefs, including those talked about in this thread, who end up being very gracious and understanding towards other’s different mindsets. Sometimes, when I had others ask for my help in finding bibles, I would cringe inside. When being honest about what I don’t know, I would also get a “Oh, it’s alright, I understand, we just hope to get the right one” answer. *phew* And then, there are the few times I was asked, because they are looking for a gift for someone. 

I have found, everyone have their view and there are different levels and ways they come by them and how open they are with them among different perspectives.  

[lightly]

16 hours ago, danydandan said:

Yep.

Fossils were put there by God as a test of faith. Apparently??????

 

Ah, well then I guess that makes me a Ye of little,or no, faith when it comes to the whole Ark tale.  In the story the flood destroys  "every living substance" on the earth....and yet , days later a dove sent out by Noah, comes back with an olive leaf it had "pluct"

good thing God is Allllll powerful ... He'd have to be to make the Flood story work out.   

[Golden Duck]

57 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not following, what does what the laws say have to do with it, you're not under the impression that those are never broken?  In the US we have some laws concerning vaccinations for example but various science-challenged people are working hard to get exceptions to that.  We have laws that require parents to seek medical attention for their children regardless of whether they think that merely praying for healing is sufficient, and kids of have been harmed and died as a result and the parents prosecuted, but that's of course too little too late as far as the child is concerned. 

I'm pretty sure it's not exceptionally controversial that those whose beliefs are this extreme may have other beliefs, if not specifically YEC, that are in conflict with science or unsupported, so I'm not sure what you are objecting to, if you are.

Likewise, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by apparently thinking it is necessary to ask me whether I'm aware laws are broken.  I'm certain I mentioned that laws are enforced regardless of beliefs.

We have child neglect laws too. It happens for any number of reason. Drugs and gambling are two major reasons. There doesn't seem to be any other drivers other than criminal sanctions in these cases.

Vaccinations are handled by economic drivers I explained earlier.

The OP raised about how people rationalise YEC. It's easier for ideas that don't affect day-to-day life.

But, if it's more than trivial, what's the remedy? It would require constitutional change I'm guessing.

[+Liquid Gardens]

6 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Likewise, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by apparently thinking it is necessary to ask me whether I'm aware laws are broken.  I'm certain I mentioned that laws are enforced regardless of beliefs.

Understood, but are you mentioning these laws just as an FYI or because it is rebutting something Jodie said?  You interpreted fairly I thought what she said suggesting the YEC is a 'gateway' to bad beliefs about vaccination, ecology, etc, but then brought up that we have laws concerning these things.  I just wasn't sure why you were bringing up laws, I don't think there was an argument that there were no legal remedies in place for some of these things.  Those may mitigate the damage but as we both agree doesn't eliminate it.

If you're just noting that we don't really have a great remedy beyond creating laws, agreed, not much we can do if people decide to not obey the laws.  Maybe something like better education would help in some cases.

[Golden Duck]

17 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Understood, but are you mentioning these laws just as an FYI or because it is rebutting something Jodie said?  You interpreted fairly I thought what she said suggesting the YEC is a 'gateway' to bad beliefs about vaccination, ecology, etc, but then brought up that we have laws concerning these things.  I just wasn't sure why you were bringing up laws, I don't think there was an argument that there were no legal remedies in place for some of these things.  Those may mitigate the damage but as we both agree doesn't eliminate it.

If you're just noting that we don't really have a great remedy beyond creating laws, agreed, not much we can do if people decide to not obey the laws.  Maybe something like better education would help in some cases.

TBH I think when introduced the adverse behaviour she was implying something needs to be done about gateway beliefs and it perhaps a follow-up to me (of course it's about me) asserting there's nothing anti-social about not winning a trivia night.  I was just saying no need to panic there are laws. Whatever holy book is not really that powerful. 

In fact the Bible states it's secondary ti ther law of the land, in numerous places, most famously "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar."

I have to say I'm not even sure I've ever met a YEC. I've worked with a JW, so maybe. It just doesn't come up in conversation. Ancient Alienz is far more widespread IMO and that isn't religious. A colleague did ask me what I thought re the Pyramids and AA (I think she was getting intellectually bullied by another colleague). I just pointed her to the Thunderstone.

[zep73]

On 14.7.2019 at 12:21 PM, Golden Duck said:

Marginalising people on what they think... that's a different matter.

If one thinks the Earth was created 6,000 years ago, one is marginalizing one self.