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DirtyDocMartens

My first New Earther!

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Guyver
11 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

In any event, the meat of my post was to show that the scriptures have the earth as being very old, as even the KJV has the earth as existing forever.

Yes.  I get that.  It's not uncommon to find that the Bible says different things about the same things.  In fact, I can't think of a single doctrine that people accept that cannot be shown to be contradicted by some other passage in the bible itself.  In this case however, you won't find a young Earth in the Bible.  That notion came from others like Bishop Ussher.  

Quote

 

But you still failed to catch my drift, as I was wanting to know if you, during your height of religious faith, when you were attending services 3 times a week, and also being an admitted admirer of Solomon's wisdom, had been a proponent of a youthful earth? And what made you change your mind, if you had entertained such "foolish" thoughts, as it is implied by the "OP?." Was it the attending of a prestigious university that made you less foolish, and wiser to the truth?


 

No.  When I was an active Evangelical, I accepted the "Gap Theory" which basically claims that there is an indeterminate amount of time existing in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  I did not believe in a young Earth.  

Did the attending of a prestigious university make me less foolish?

Yes and no.  I value education and think it's a good thing from any perspective.  But it did not make me question my beliefs.  I first began to change my mind about the Bible, my faith.....and so forth as a result of being on this particular forum back in 2004 I think it was and this was years after I graduated from college.  I began to first question my faith and beliefs as I was debating on this forum.  The first thing that happened was that I learned it was impossible to prove that the Bible is the Word of God.  That was the beginning of me questioning everything that I had believed in for so long.  

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Pettytalk
8 hours ago, Guyver said:

Yes.  I get that.  It's not uncommon to find that the Bible says different things about the same things.  In fact, I can't think of a single doctrine that people accept that cannot be shown to be contradicted by some other passage in the bible itself.  In this case however, you won't find a young Earth in the Bible.  That notion came from others like Bishop Ussher.  

No.  When I was an active Evangelical, I accepted the "Gap Theory" which basically claims that there is an indeterminate amount of time existing in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.  I did not believe in a young Earth.  

Did the attending of a prestigious university make me less foolish?

Yes and no.  I value education and think it's a good thing from any perspective.  But it did not make me question my beliefs.  I first began to change my mind about the Bible, my faith.....and so forth as a result of being on this particular forum back in 2004 I think it was and this was years after I graduated from college.  I began to first question my faith and beliefs as I was debating on this forum.  The first thing that happened was that I learned it was impossible to prove that the Bible is the Word of God.  That was the beginning of me questioning everything that I had believed in for so long.  

That's all quite honest on your part, I believe. You say that the beginning of your metamorphoses into enlightenment was the learning of the impossibility to prove the bible is the word of God? Then, can I ask you if before that state of change you were convinced, beyond impossibility, that it was the word of God?

Apparently if one is wanting proof of that kind, beyond impossibility, then it's impossible that one is, or ever was one of faith. Because proof beyond impossibilities takes us to the realm of knowing. Therefore you could never have been a person of FAITH to begin with, deep down inside..I suppose you never thought about questioning the word before your encounter on that debating forum? And did the debating forum members provide to you the proof, beyond impossibility, that the bible is not the word of God?

Obviously you must of also changed your way to live, applying other standards to conduct your life, since the 10 commandments, and also all that Jesus said cannot be the word of God, as you were, after debating, convinced otherwise.

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Mr Walker
On 14/07/2019 at 9:02 AM, DirtyDocMartens said:

I was talking to our receptionist today and found out she believes the Earth is 6000 years old. I've heard about these people, but this was my first discussion about it with an actual believer. I was stupified. I asked her what she thought of Neanderthals, but I don't she really knew what those are (or were). And apparently dinosaurs were on the ark, but not the big ones- she was a little vague on what happened to them. Astounding,  absolutely astounding.  I feel like I've just seen Bigfoot or some other extremely unlikely speciman. I have a degree in biology/ecology from a fairly prestigious university and I guess I've gotten used to being surrounded by people guided by reason rather than faith. Has anyone else had a similar experience?  And what was your reaction? 

lol 

I know dozens of them, and live with one. 

All very nice people for whom belief is more critical than knowledge because belief forms the core of who they are, while knowledge is just a tool for living life 

Some are university educated, others are home schooled or went to religious schools.  Some were born into believing families, some came to believe as adults.

It surprises me that you never encountered one before. They  are everywhere   Possibly most don't open up to a stranger about their beliefs 

My reaction?

Judge people by how they behave, (what their values attitudes morals and principles cause them to act like )  not what they believe. Beliefs are critical to people and as long as they do/promote no physical harm, are all acceptable. 

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Mr Walker
On 14/07/2019 at 1:07 PM, DirtyDocMartens said:

Are you asking me that question? I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs, I'm just amazed and confounded by her ability to rationalize around factual information. And she's a friend of mine, by the way, I didn't criticize her views, we just had a friendly discussion about it then went on to a different subject. I'm bringing it up here because I don't want to hurt her feelings by harping on it, I'm just looking for insight into that worldview.

Everyone rationalises around factual information. Our choices of rationalisation  come from  our needs and prior beliefs.

I am an evolutionist because the evidences for this seem convincing to me. My wife has the same knowledge and evidences, but interprets them differently as she is a creationist.

She feels sorry for poor David Attenborough because he is so mislead in his belief about evolution :)     

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Mr Walker
On 14/07/2019 at 2:39 PM, Not A Rockstar said:

Doc, some of these people are home schooled so may not have the education you would consider basic. Certainly if they get taught science it is slanted a great deal into "what the profane unbelievers say" vs "our truth". My Paternal grand parents were of this worldview and it was simply not even questionable, To the day they died they were locked into what the Church taught, and that was not even one of these non mainstream cults, it was mainstream. Still is. IDK if the entire church holds to this but, they did. I clearly remember being told how the world was destroyed and remade with the Garden and Man was created then and Eve later and the fossils were just the remains of the things that died before then. I believed it until I got to school and away from them. Why would I doubt it, with no education until then about science at all? I was a child.

Some never do escape though or hear different and maybe they do not question, as it is seen as a test of their salvation and loyalty to God, I guess, to not doubt the literal letter of the Bible, as taught by their pastor. 

In the big scheme of things, this brand of idea is not much more than 10% of Christians out there I ESTIMATE, though can vary a LOT by area of the country. I am sure it is higher around me within some of these Pentecostal and Evangelical little churches dotting the countryside, and probably a lot less in major cities. I do not talk with many of those and they avoid me, pretty much. Many of them dress very obviously, each little church has its own Boss, sort of and some seem very cultish and do not associate with non-members much at all. They avoid tattooed heathens like me. The Baptists are friendlier. I talk with a few of them but on the whole that mindset is ancient history for me and I cannot go back or miss it. 

It really is set in solid steel for most of them. 

Close.

279 million Pentecostal Christians in the world, making up about 4.5 of the worlds pop and 13 % of the worlds christian population Probably lots more creationists among other churches, also  

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Mr Walker
On 16/07/2019 at 6:44 AM, lightly said:

I've never met one .  I can't understand how they explain fossils in ROCK, for instance. Do they actually believe God made the Grand Canyon...pretty much the way it is now?!     ..and mountains fully formed?   I don't get it.

yup basically that is what many believe

In one sense  we ALL believe. 

No one was there to see and know, so we take on board sources, people and evidences we trust.

We accept them on faith.

Thus i am an evolutionist because i trust and accept the scientific evidences. However, anyone who does NOT have such a faith in science is open to belief in creationism   What  we are taught in childhood and in school usually determines our basic beliefs  unless we find a compelling reason to rebel against them. 

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Mr Walker
On 16/07/2019 at 7:06 AM, XenoFish said:

I've dealt with enough mechanical engineers to know they have a few cogs in the head-space loose.

Engineer; repair thyself. :) 

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Mr Walker
On 16/07/2019 at 7:08 AM, XenoFish said:

Can someone clue me in on where exactly did this 6000 year figure came from?

There is a specific calculation based on the genealogical life lines of peole in the bible, 

https://creation.com/6000-years

quote

What about different dates for creation?

Many people have come up with dates for creation, such as James Ussher (4004 BC), Johannes Kepler (3992 BC), Gerhard Hasel (4178 BC), and Isaac Newton (~4000 BC). Additionally, there are various chronologies competing with each other today (though all with the same ballpark outcome) which would be more precise than this article, but also rely on assumptions that must come from a particular interpretation of the text. It is not the purpose of this article to choose any particular one of these chronologies, but rather to show how the plain interpretation of Scripture gives a straightforward chronology that leads us to believe the world is around 6,000 years old, regardless of which of these other chronological frameworks one uses.

end quote

but in general terms some believe that one biblical day equals 1000 years  in human terms and, as creation took 6 days, the earth is 6000 years old. 

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Mr Walker
On 16/07/2019 at 7:42 AM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Some people have expressed the idea of "what's the big deal if YEC believe this? What's the harm?"

Well, to be a YEC, one must disregard archeology, paleontology, astronomy, and biology, for starters, because all these disciplines contradict their biblical world view.

If one can disregard those sciences, it isn't hard to ignore  others as well that disagree with your religious beliefs. Like vaccinations, blood transfusions, organ donation, and ecology.

Why conserve species, or protect wilderness areas? Why be concerned about the environment? God gave us dominion over the earth, so we needn't worry about it.

This presents an alternate christian view about how humans should exercise their dominion  

Humans were given the responsibility in christian theology to be stewards of the earth 

Basically it comes down to individual human values and character.  a rapacious consumer and materialist is a danger, whether the y are an atheist tor a christian 

https://www.gospelproject.com/how-should-we-exercise-dominion/

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Guyver
19 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

That's all quite honest on your part, I believe. You say that the beginning of your metamorphoses into enlightenment was the learning of the impossibility to prove the bible is the word of God? Then, can I ask you if before that state of change you were convinced, beyond impossibility, that it was the word of God?

Apparently if one is wanting proof of that kind, beyond impossibility, then it's impossible that one is, or ever was one of faith. Because proof beyond impossibilities takes us to the realm of knowing. Therefore you could never have been a person of FAITH to begin with, deep down inside..I suppose you never thought about questioning the word before your encounter on that debating forum? And did the debating forum members provide to you the proof, beyond impossibility, that the bible is not the word of God?

Obviously you must of also changed your way to live, applying other standards to conduct your life, since the 10 commandments, and also all that Jesus said cannot be the word of God, as you were, after debating, convinced otherwise.

At one time I did believe the Bible is the Word of God, now I don’t.  So, yes....I am convinced of that.

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Doug1o29
On 7/14/2019 at 5:09 AM, Essan said:

Ask her what happened to the therapsids :D 

I have never met a young earther, and hope I never do!   A flat earther is fair more rational!

We had one trying to get a degree in geology.  I think she eventually gave up on the young earth idea.

Doug

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Dejarma
On 7/14/2019 at 12:32 AM, DirtyDocMartens said:

I have a degree in biology/ecology from a fairly prestigious university and I guess I've gotten used to being surrounded by people guided by reason rather than faith

you don't need a degree in biology & ecology to be absolutely astounded by this my dear friend;)

I'm surrounded by folk like this! You just get used to them like I've got used to the screaming kids in the playground at the back of my garden:mellow:

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Scudbuster
On 7/15/2019 at 5:14 PM, lightly said:

I've never met one .  I can't understand how they explain fossils in ROCK, for instance. Do they actually believe God made the Grand Canyon...pretty much the way it is now?!     ..and mountains fully formed?   I don't get it.

In Glacier Nat'l Park, Montana, along the Grinell Glacier Trail, there's a spot where you can see the waves of a long ago ocean preserved in rock. These rock waves, perfectly undulating,  are unmistakeable.

This former "shore" now sits at about 7-8000 feet above sea level, thrust up to that height by movements below the earth's surface, over the period of millions of years. I don't think some "god" made them in an attempt to deceive an unknowing backpacker like me millions of years hence.....they are the real deal. 

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Farmer77
2 minutes ago, Scudbuster said:

In Glacier Nat'l Park, Montana, along the Grinell Glacier Trail, there's a spot where you can see the waves of a long ago ocean preserved in rock. These rock waves, perfectly undulating,  are unmistakeable.

This former "shore" now sits at about 7-8000 feet above sea level, thrust up to that height by movements below the earth's surface, over the period of millions of years. I don't think some "god" made them in an attempt to deceive an unknowing backpacker like me millions of years hence.....they are the real deal. 

The features youre discussing and the Grand Canyon were created by the sheer force of the waters springing up from the earth during the great flood of Genesis..........thats what i was taught in several mainstream Christian churches anyways :rolleyes:

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