Spiritual or science

[+Sherapy]

7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No, not really. It's just like everything else, it's work. Put time and effort into something with very little payoff. Yet the vain effort is there. 

Nevermind. I'm out. 

I get this, I find it engaging  to learn, to grow, to challenge myself, push myself beyond my cognitive limits. It doesn’t  lead to happy though, it is hard work yet,  I am fine with that.

Still get the dopamine rush 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Sherapy

[onlookerofmayhem]

28 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I care. I care about everyone. If.... if hell is real...I'd rather no one has to go there.

Which makes you a better being than the one who created that hell.

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, DieChecker said:

The irreconcilable differences are due to one side or the other insisting that they must conflict. If I said you are wrong, and you say I am wrong, must either of us actually be wrong? Or is it a matter of opinions?

There is nothing in religion that must require proof. And nothing in science that must require religious kinds of belief. 

I would agree with what Cormac wrote in that something believed that is based on zero facts can not be factually refuted. It can only be concluded to be wrong due to lack of proof.

Given the underlying assumption of a very powerful being, saying you would notice things it sought to hide, is like an infant believing it would know how to fly a 747 passenger plane. Very unlikely.

That such a being could hide, is beyond doubt. WHY the being would hide should then be the question. 

quote

Occasionally, the official first contact takes place years or even decades after members of the species involved have first met. Typically, first contact is only initiated by the Federation if a civilization is sufficiently advanced and has developed interstellar travel (via warp drive, for example). Contact with more primitive civilizations is prohibited by the Prime Directive. It has been stated that the preferred method is to privately approach scientists and intellectual leaders to make the initial contact, on the assumption that they would more easily grasp the concept of alien life. Also, the population is typically observed covertly for some time before making first contact, a decision made after the Klingon first contact.

 https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/First_contact

[Mr Walker]

10 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Once again all of that lead to confirmation bias and perhaps magical thinking. If I heard god I'd go see my doctor. I'd probably have a few screws loose.

Would that depend on what god told you?  Eg if he gave  you the  winning the lottery numbers  for the week, would you still seek help to stop the voices?    

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Belief then doesn't actually require a "real" God, it basically becomes a placebo IMO. 

cormac

Absolutely true, but of course this has no relevance to whether, or not, "real gods" also exist. I could build a strong argument, using many points of logic and psychology,  that belief in a god is much more powerful and empowering than actually living with one. Belief in anything is always more powerful and empowering than reality 

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Yet here we are. And how often are folks like myself told how unenlightened we are for not believing? That the chemical high of a mystical experience is proof of god or heaven. How certain dreams are said to be divine messages. Is it all due to belief? Why the compulsion to believe something that's not grounded in reality? 

Catch 22.

You  BELIEVE its not grounded in reality. Believers believe it is  

Both beliefs are logical and justifiable, where no evidences exist to prove or disprove the object of belief.

However, we KNOW  (scientifically and medically) that simply believing provides benefits to humans which non belief does not  

Thus, a logical/ rational human will construct and hold onto a belief in something, even if he doesn't believe it to be real    so that he/ she can gain the benefits of that belief.

Reality is irrelevant.

 Belief is all. 

 

 

Belief is good for humans, and is indeed a pro  survival trait

evolution promotes survival characteristics.

Thus, due to 100000 years or more of evolution, most of the human population are strongly predisposed to belief  and, indeed, across the world around 90% of modern humans believe in something more than the material world.  

Evolution provides what you describe  as a compulsion and thus, in fact, it is a strong biological compulsion or, driver, for human beings  . 

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Everyone is miserable. People just mask their suffering differently. 

That is not true

Sadly, depression and anxiety are disturbingly common, and seem to be becoming more so. Some of it is genetic but some of it is social conditioning and the changing nature of a society, where we are increasingly cut off from social contact, real purpose, and our origins, family, and community.

But still, lots of people are not just happy but truly joyous.

   I guess my social group is 30 % depressed  (mostly the young who face the greatest challenges in their lives and are least equipped in every way to deal with those)  20% absolutely  happy and content   (mostly the older who have got their lives sorted and are less hormonal)  and the rest along a spectrum in the middle. I would call them basically happy and content but with occasions of  sadness, anxiety or depression eg from losing a job or  having serious debts. 

As to suffering. Real suffering in  a country like Australia is  rare, usually occurring in cases where a loved one is lost, a child is taken away, or there is a physical illness or injury in a life.  

 

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I don't believe in happiness. If anything it's a temporary rush of feel good chemicals that rapidly vanishes. Then you're right back where you started. The pursuit of happiness is a fools errand. 

 This is so sad. 

You deserve to be happy, and you should  be happy 

Happiness is the natural state of existence for humans.

ie it is how we are evolved to be, for our survival. 

Miserable people rarely survive long enough to breed and produce miserable genes. 

 To be blunt, you should get expert help  until you are happy again, or at least content and hopeful   

This might sound interfering, but if you had a heart condition I would tell you the same thing. Keep getting help until its fixed. This is no different for psychological conditions,  which should be seen and treated like physical ones  

I care, and am saddened.

  If i didn't care, and feel some pain for you, I wouldn't bother commenting

. Please don't see this as having a go at you. It is a genuine and real concern for your well being, as a fellow human being.  

Were you ever naturally happy? (for example as a child)  

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Look at the world. No one is happy with anything. 

no. Again that is  your view, through tinted glasses you have chosen to put  on and see the world through. LOTS of us are happy.

I have nothing to be unhappy about.

For me, unhappiness requires a clear and present reason, to exist.  Without real reasons to be unhappy, it shouldn't occur .

My wife can hardly walk, is in a lot of pain a lot of the time, and cant do almost any of the things she once enjoyed  doing, due to paralysis down one side of her body. She reads, listens to music, carries on conversations over the internet, and sits in front of the heater almost all day, yet she is still happy  I am increasingly her full time carer, yet i also am always happy 

[eight bits]

30 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Thus, a logical/ rational human will construct and hold onto a belief in something, even if he doesn't believe it to be real    so that he/ she can gain the benefits of that belief.

And you complain that @third_eye is inscrutable.

Cutting through the doublethink (Orwell's term, something he shrewdly observed to exist, but not as anything worthwhile to aspire to), your prescription betrays elementary confusion between correlation and causation. You can trot out your studies showing that on average believers have better health outcomes than non-believers in this or that surveyed population. You needn't do so again; the point is granted, the studies exist.

Fine, that's correlation.

Causation would be if, initially lacking belief, I could reasonably hope to capture the benefits which correlate with belief in the surveyed populations by believing. Your studies that show that are where?

Nowhere, and for good reasons, the chief one being what's in the quote box. I can't achieve confident belief by wishing it were so, all I can achieve is doublethink, "belief in something even if [I don't] believe it to be real." And where are the studies of the "benefits" of indulging in doublethink?

"The logical/rational human" does things for good reasons shown. Correlation without causation and without any plausible opportunity to "take advantage" of the correlation is not a good reason to do something.

Edited August 14, 2019 by eight bits

[Mr Walker]

33 minutes ago, eight bits said:

And you complain that @third_eye is inscrutable.

Cutting through the doublethink (Orwell's term, something he shrewdly observed to exist, but not as anything worthwhile to aspire to), your prescription betrays elemenatry confusion between correlation and causation. You can trot out your studies showing that on average believers have better health outcomes than non-believers in this or that surveyed population. You needn't do so again; the point is granted, the studies exist.

Fine, that's correlation.

Causation would be if, initially lacking belief, I could reasonably hope to capture the benefits which correlate with belief in the surveyed populations by believing. Your studies that show that are where?

Nowhere, and for good reasons, the chief one being what's in the quote box. I can't achieve confident belief by wishing it were so, all I can achieve is doublethink, "belief in something even if [I don't] believe it to be real." And where are the studies of the "benefits" of indulging in doublethink?

"The logical/rational human" does things for good reasons shown. Correlation without causation and without any plausible opportunity to "take advantage" of the correlation is not a good reason to do something.

it was deliberate 

Along the lines of "  if there was no god one would be better of creating  one. "  Hence the smiley /frowny 

yep the point was that scientifically and medically it is indisputable and in the last 10 years experts have come to understand the causal links the physiological psychological workings,  and why it is real 

and i have given those studies. 

As explained before the correlation has bee known for many decades.  The causal factors and linkages came out of research this millennia and increasingly in the last decade 

In any case, all it requires is belief 

You argue one cannot construct belief 

i argue that, as a cognitive construct, of course one can, if one has a reason to do so  Indeed it is clear that all belief is a conscious cognitive construct; built, maintained,  and shaped, by our needs 

10 years extra life, better health, and better mental health are 3 logical reasons to construct a belief  construct,  even when only the correlation is established  (just as one would be wise to be married, own a dog and stay fit)  However, once the causal effects and links are known, it becomes like cigarette smoking. There is no longer any excuse to smoke even if there was, when only a correlation between smoking and death /illness existed/was recognised  

Are you  arguing that there was no reason to give up smoking when only the correlation was known?  That should be enough to act  The causal understanding is only icing on the cake.

  To reiterate; the human mind is capable of constructing confident belief in ANYTHING which doesn't contradict known facts, and it constantly  does, because we have evolved to do so, and have a very strong evolved predisposition to the construction of  confident beliefs   

Thus one can not believe. then one can discover that belief adds years to life and one can construct a belief, based on that knowledge alone.

This  happens all the time; or one can find that belief makes people happy, and go from  disbelief to belief , seeking happiness.

That is the cognitive nature and structure of how we; begin, construct, maintain, and use, belief constructs.   

quote

A meta-analysis of 49 studies of religious coping found that positive forms of religious coping were related to lower levels of depression, anxiety, and distress, while negative forms of religious coping were associated with poorer psychological adjustment.22 Similar findings come from reviews of studies of religious beliefs and coping among HIV-positive individuals.23 These studies have also found that spirituality and religion are positively related to immune system function. Although Koenig et al1 reported that the majority of the studies of heart disease, blood pressure and cancer risk found salutary effects among the more religious, recent reviews of the evidence for an association between religion and cancer or cardiovascular disease are more equivocal.24,25 Both positive and negative findings have come from studies of religious coping and illness adjustment among cancer patients.26

A systematic review of randomised controlled trials has found that religious prayer improved health outcomes in coronary patients and survival among children with leukaemia.27 Islamic-based psychotherapy also speeded recovery from anxiety and depression among Muslims.27 However, a recent well designed study of intercessory prayer found a small negative effect of prayer on patients in a coronary care unit.28 A recent review of 35 studies of the relationship between religiosity and health-related physiological processes found that both Judaeo-Christian and Eastern religious practices were associated with reduced blood pressure and improved immune function; moreover, Zen, yoga, and meditation practices correlated with lower levels of stress hormone and cholesterol and better overall health outcomes in clinical patient populations.29

end quote

while there are some negative  connections, large meta studies found tha t about 85 % of connections were positive  

quote

A2001 publication identified over 1200 studies that had examined the relationship between some aspect of religious belief or behaviour and some indicator of health.1 It concluded that most studies had found a positive association between religion and physical and mental health. 

 

Recent reviews continue to provide further evidence of an association between religious involvement and health. Religion-associated variables have been shown to have protective effects for multiple mental health outcomes, including wellbeing, suicidal behaviour and substance misuse.11 A critical review of 17 studies found that religious attendance and intrinsic (internalised) religion tend to be associated with reduced anxiety, while extrinsic (utilitarian) religion tends to be positively associated with anxiety.12 A meta-analysis of 147 studies concluded that there was a robust but modest inverse association between religiousness and depressive symptoms.13 However, other data reveal that the evidence for associations between religiosity and schizophrenia is mixed.14 Australian studies have also noted that religion may have a potential therapeutic role in the treatment of depression.15,16 A series of randomised controlled trials found that spiritually augmented therapies were more successful than non-spiritual conventional therapies in reducing patients’ depressive symptoms, improving treatment and adherence, and minimising the risk of relapse.4,17 Studies of adolescent behaviour have found that higher levels of religious involvement are inversely related to alcohol and drug use, smoking, sexual activity, depressive symptoms and suicide risk.18,19 Studies of Australian school students have also shown that religiosity is inversely related to a broad range of risk behaviours.20,

 

 A rigorous review of the empirical evidence for the association between religion and health concluded that the scientific evidence is strongest for the religious attendance–mortality association.32 The report concluded that religious service attendance was associated with a “strong, consistent, prospective and often graded reduction in risk of mortality”. After adjusting for confounding factors, the association between attendance and mortality was reduced by about 25%. The evidence was strongest for cardiovascular disease.

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/spirituality-religion-and-health-evidence-and-research-directions

All from one article in the medical journal of Australia

 

 For example, a national study of high school seniors in the US found that religious students were more likely than their non-religious peers to wear seatbelts, eat breakfast, eat green vegetables and fruit, get regular exercise, and sleep at least 7 hours a night.45 Thus, religious participation could have a general moderating effect on lifestyle, or there may be selection bias, with people who are more religious differing in unmeasured ways from those less involved.

Social relationships are another potential explanatory factor. Social ties can provide both support and a sense of connectedness — but also, time demands, role conflicts and criticism. The Alameda County [California] Study found, for example, that religious attendance was linked to positive changes in both social ties and health behaviours over time.46 Researchers are also exploring the extent to which religion and spirituality can provide systems of meaning and feelings of strength to cope with stress and adversity.47 A recent US national mortality study that found a robust effect of religious attendance after adjusting for a broad range of potential confounding and mediating behavioural, social and psychological variables highlights the need to also explore potential direct effects of religion on health.48

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140328103043.htm

"Religion helps regulate behavior and health habits, while spirituality regulates your emotions, how you feel," said Carolyn Aldwin, a gerontology professor in the College of Public Health and Human Sciences at OSU.

Aldwin and colleagues have been working to understand and distinguish the beneficial connections between health, religion and spirituality. The result is a new theoretical model that defines two distinct pathways.

Religiousness, including formal religious affiliation and service attendance, is associated with better health habits, such as lower smoking rates and reduced alcohol consumption. Spirituality, including meditation and private prayer, helps regulate emotions, which aids physiological effects such as blood pressure.

https://www.coupleandfamilyclinic.com/blog/how-do-religious-beliefs-affect-our-health-and-well-being/

In a nutshell, being religious is strongly associated with better overall mental health and well-being. The devoutly religious have fewer symptoms of anxiety and depression in addition to having a better ability to cope with stressors. A 2005 study on adults in their 60s and 70s in the U.S. found that religious beliefs buffered against depression associated with poor physical health. And for those of you thinking, “well sure, people who are religious tend to enjoy the benefits of social support by attending weekly services at various houses of worship,” the buffering effects of religion was present even after controlling for social support. In a 2013 study, researchers found that patients who were being treated for depression and self-harm responded better to treatment if they believed in God. Of course, these results do not show causality.

]

quote

Whether or not a divine power truly does exist might be a matter of opinion, but the neurophysiological effects of religious belief are scientific facts that can be accurately measured. Here, we take a look at some of these effects, as shown by the latest research.

The effects of prayer on a person's well-being are well-documented.

Whether you are a staunch atheist, a reserved agnostic, or a devout believer, you are equally likely to find the effects of religion on human brains astonishing.

Religious belief can increase our lifespan and help us better cope with disease.

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322539.php

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Absolutely true, but of course this has no relevance to whether, or not, "real gods" also exist. I could build a strong argument, using many points of logic and psychology,  that belief in a god is much more powerful and empowering than actually living with one. Belief in anything is always more powerful and empowering than reality 

In what sense is belief more powerful, stop talking in ambiguities, post up the facts. 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

16 hours ago, DieChecker said:

20 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Now, this is me and my warped perspective, but I feel there might be a slight difference on that. I also think the two exist in parallel. (In the way I personally see it.) But, I think one has more limitations than the other. Granted, I think a religious person need not reject physical science, because I think it’s the logical thing to not ignore. I feel this way, through out my life as a spiritual person who cannot deny the logic and nature right in front of me. But a scientific person need not to dismiss the spiritual, well I think that might be a tall order for all of them. I think, there is a basis of that logic, and there might be the instinctual need to reject the spiritual. Logic will still come up as the go to. 

I think psyche pretty much explained it well: 

 

I believe scientific minded people believe they must reject religion due to that being what they've been told to believe. They are programmed as much as any Young Earth Creationist. 

I don't believe it is instinct, unless it is the instinct to defend what one has been taught and what one has accepted as true.

I’m curious as to why you believe that. Not putting it down, or even trying to get you to not believe it. (I respect it, it is what you instinctly believe in) .... (and it would be wrong to do that.) But, as to being told, I personally don’t think so. 

Not that people haven’t gotten to most of their perspectives because of what was told, taught, and instructed to them. That is how we mostly get our information and education. I just think, there is also the thought of how it’s is in the individual perspectives. I consider scientific things as straight out objective situations. I consider the spiritual, religion, (despite the majority of people who practice it) as more of a subjective nature. Because, to each to honestly believe, it’s what is convincing them inside of themselves. 

Just as I’m deeply in tuned with my beliefs, I can’t prove the majority of it to the majority of people. I think about the science of things, of how science has shown us of how things are, and I can see myself spreading that information to others and seeking it science will prove it objectively. That is why I can see how one can accept the other, but yet not necessarily the other way around. 

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

it was deliberate 

Along the lines of "  if there was no god one would be better of creating  one. "  Hence the smiley /frowny 

yep the point was that scientifically and medically it is indisputable and in the last 10 years experts have come to understand the causal links the physiological psychological workings,  and why it is real 

and i have given those studies. 

As explained before the correlation has bee known for many decades.  The causal factors and linkages came out of research this millennia and increasingly in the last decade 

In any case, all it requires is belief 

You argue one cannot construct belief 

i argue that, as a cognitive construct, of course one can, if one has a reason to do so  Indeed it is clear that all belief is a conscious cognitive construct; built, maintained,  and shaped, by our needs 

10 years extra life, better health, and better mental health are 3 logical reasons to construct a belief  construct,  even when only the correlation is established  (just as one would be wise to be married, own a dog and stay fit)  However, once the causal effects and links are known, it becomes like cigarette smoking. There is no longer any excuse to smoke even if there was, when only a correlation between smoking and death /illness existed/was recognised  

Are you  arguing that there was no reason to give up smoking when only the correlation was known?  That should be enough to act  The causal understanding is only icing on the cake.

  To reiterate; the human mind is capable of constructing confident belief in ANYTHING which doesn't contradict known facts, and it constantly  does, because we have evolved to do so, and have a very strong evolved predisposition to the construction of  confident beliefs   

Thus one can not believe. then one can discover that belief adds years to life and one can construct a belief, based on that knowledge alone.

This  happens all the time; or one can find that belief makes people happy, and go from  disbelief to belief , seeking happiness.

That is the cognitive nature and structure of how we; begin, construct, maintain, and use, belief constructs.   

quote

A meta-analysis of 49 studies of religious coping found that positive forms of religious coping were related to lower levels of depression, anxiety, and distress, while negative forms of religious coping were associated with poorer psychological adjustment.22 Similar findings come from reviews of studies of religious beliefs and coping among HIV-positive individuals.23 These studies have also found that spirituality and religion are positively related to immune system function. Although Koenig et al1 reported that the majority of the studies of heart disease, blood pressure and cancer risk found salutary effects among the more religious, recent reviews of the evidence for an association between religion and cancer or cardiovascular disease are more equivocal.24,25 Both positive and negative findings have come from studies of religious coping and illness adjustment among cancer patients.26

A systematic review of randomised controlled trials has found that religious prayer improved health outcomes in coronary patients and survival among children with leukaemia.27 Islamic-based psychotherapy also speeded recovery from anxiety and depression among Muslims.27 However, a recent well designed study of intercessory prayer found a small negative effect of prayer on patients in a coronary care unit.28 A recent review of 35 studies of the relationship between religiosity and health-related physiological processes found that both Judaeo-Christian and Eastern religious practices were associated with reduced blood pressure and improved immune function; moreover, Zen, yoga, and meditation practices correlated with lower levels of stress hormone and cholesterol and better overall health outcomes in clinical patient populations.29

end quote

while there are some negative  connections, large meta studies found tha t about 85 % of connections were positive  

quote

A2001 publication identified over 1200 studies that had examined the relationship between some aspect of religious belief or behaviour and some indicator of health.1 It concluded that most studies had found a positive association between religion and physical and mental health. 

 

Recent reviews continue to provide further evidence of an association between religious involvement and health. Religion-associated variables have been shown to have protective effects for multiple mental health outcomes, including wellbeing, suicidal behaviour and substance misuse.11 A critical review of 17 studies found that religious attendance and intrinsic (internalised) religion tend to be associated with reduced anxiety, while extrinsic (utilitarian) religion tends to be positively associated with anxiety.12 A meta-analysis of 147 studies concluded that there was a robust but modest inverse association between religiousness and depressive symptoms.13 However, other data reveal that the evidence for associations between religiosity and schizophrenia is mixed.14 Australian studies have also noted that religion may have a potential therapeutic role in the treatment of depression.15,16 A series of randomised controlled trials found that spiritually augmented therapies were more successful than non-spiritual conventional therapies in reducing patients’ depressive symptoms, improving treatment and adherence, and minimising the risk of relapse.4,17 Studies of adolescent behaviour have found that higher levels of religious involvement are inversely related to alcohol and drug use, smoking, sexual activity, depressive symptoms and suicide risk.18,19 Studies of Australian school students have also shown that religiosity is inversely related to a broad range of risk behaviours.20,

 

 A rigorous review of the empirical evidence for the association between religion and health concluded that the scientific evidence is strongest for the religious attendance–mortality association.32 The report concluded that religious service attendance was associated with a “strong, consistent, prospective and often graded reduction in risk of mortality”. After adjusting for confounding factors, the association between attendance and mortality was reduced by about 25%. The evidence was strongest for cardiovascular disease.

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/spirituality-religion-and-health-evidence-and-research-directions

All from one article in the medical journal of Australia

 

 For example, a national study of high school seniors in the US found that religious students were more likely than their non-religious peers to wear seatbelts, eat breakfast, eat green vegetables and fruit, get regular exercise, and sleep at least 7 hours a night.45 Thus, religious participation could have a general moderating effect on lifestyle, or there may be selection bias, with people who are more religious differing in unmeasured ways from those less involved.

Social relationships are another potential explanatory factor. Social ties can provide both support and a sense of connectedness — but also, time demands, role conflicts and criticism. The Alameda County [California] Study found, for example, that religious attendance was linked to positive changes in both social ties and health behaviours over time.46 Researchers are also exploring the extent to which religion and spirituality can provide systems of meaning and feelings of strength to cope with stress and adversity.47 A recent US national mortality study that found a robust effect of religious attendance after adjusting for a broad range of potential confounding and mediating behavioural, social and psychological variables highlights the need to also explore potential direct effects of religion on health.48

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/03/140328103043.htm

"Religion helps regulate behavior and health habits, while spirituality regulates your emotions, how you feel," said Carolyn Aldwin, a gerontology professor in the College of Public Health and Human Sciences at OSU.

Aldwin and colleagues have been working to understand and distinguish the beneficial connections between health, religion and spirituality. The result is a new theoretical model that defines two distinct pathways.

Religiousness, including formal religious affiliation and service attendance, is associated with better health habits, such as lower smoking rates and reduced alcohol consumption. Spirituality, including meditation and private prayer, helps regulate emotions, which aids physiological effects such as blood pressure.

https://www.coupleandfamilyclinic.com/blog/how-do-religious-beliefs-affect-our-health-and-well-being/

In a nutshell, being religious is strongly associated with better overall mental health and well-being. The devoutly religious have fewer symptoms of anxiety and depression in addition to having a better ability to cope with stressors. A 2005 study on adults in their 60s and 70s in the U.S. found that religious beliefs buffered against depression associated with poor physical health. And for those of you thinking, “well sure, people who are religious tend to enjoy the benefits of social support by attending weekly services at various houses of worship,” the buffering effects of religion was present even after controlling for social support. In a 2013 study, researchers found that patients who were being treated for depression and self-harm responded better to treatment if they believed in God. Of course, these results do not show causality.

]

quote

Whether or not a divine power truly does exist might be a matter of opinion, but the neurophysiological effects of religious belief are scientific facts that can be accurately measured. Here, we take a look at some of these effects, as shown by the latest research.

The effects of prayer on a person's well-being are well-documented.

Whether you are a staunch atheist, a reserved agnostic, or a devout believer, you are equally likely to find the effects of religion on human brains astonishing.

Religious belief can increase our lifespan and help us better cope with disease.

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322539.php

 

Is this supposed to be you Walls? Or wishful healthing on your part?

I don’t see evidence of you being better off due to your construct building. 

I work for 2 Doctors and both told me diet and exercise can just about cause miracles. 

I am thinking exercise and diet would have been the golden ticket for ya. 

Not having a go at you, just thinking that not having beliefs the ones you ascribe to might be the better option. 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Sherapy

[Stubbly_Dooright]

14 hours ago, DieChecker said:

16 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Why does it hide? Why does it only speak to one group of people? If it speaks to different groups, then why is the message so different? If god answers prayers, then why only selective ones? 

It's as if god doesn't care or doesn't exist. 

God speaks to everyone, many simply aren't listening.

I did read the rest of the posts, following this one, to see if this was then pointed out to you in disagreement. I didn’t see any, (though, I did think the varying reply posts from some as just as logical.) I don’t think one can make that claim. Usually with claims, to be believed, one should point out how the claim is true. 

Frankly, I find it kind of condescending to assume that of anyone. How can you go about proving that people ‘simply aren’t listening’? Considering that God, (which I think you have pointed out) is not proven objectively, and is a subjective thing, how can you consider that to be readily proven to people to show they aren’t listening? How can you prove how people aren’t listening? Mostly so, when everyone is different in how they believe, and how they take in information. I think the Yanni/Laurel sound clip  is a good example on how people hear differently to something that is provable. Is the blame going on the Yanni people for not hearing Laurel, or vice versa? Now, consider something, like God, that is definitely not provable, and see ‘why’ people are not listening. To make a claim, the way I see it, I think you have to prove how is it, ‘they are not listening’. 

What would be your specifics in how people would listen in the first place? 

Kind of like, some years ago, there was a poster who claimed that those who don’t believe, that God spoke to them before, and I asked how. The point was that usually it’s with someone who grew up going to church or some religious place, as usually assumed in this country. But, considering this country has the right to go or not to go to religious meetings, the chance of one not going growing up is there. I pointed that out and asked how I would get that message. No answer. Yet, that poster was still around to reply to others. 

Is it going to be something like this, how someone is not listening? I go back to my thought on the yanni/laurel crowd. 

14 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Here is my earlier quote.

And...

These are not in conflict. In the previous post I was assuming the target audience to believe God is not real. So it was to establish God is real. And thus if that is so, then people must assume He was hiding. The post was to draw out just such a question as was asked.

Then I said that God speaks to everyone, many simply aren't listening. This was to meant to mesh with the other post, in that why if God speaks to everyone, why is He hiding? Answer is He is not hiding. God is right there, all people have to do is look.

People don't hear, because they are not listening. They think God is hiding, because they don't look.

When I posted, "Why is God hiding?". My intended response was, "He not...".

I can see how this is a good answer to those questions, but to me, it still doesn’t explain how you can claim no one is listening. 

Quote

The difference is in each individual. Each thinks their experience is an observation... evidence. Evidence of God in their life.

Crazy thing is it is impossible to prove it is not. With being able to prove, or disprove, God, then acts of God are similarly impossible to prove, or disprove. 

If God is real, then those answered prays ARE evidence. 

Here’s the thing, with that type of thinking or assumption. I don’t take the ‘you can’t disprove God, so you should at least then believe in God’ as something to accept. Because, if one is to consider not able to disprove God, than you’re not able to disprove all of the gods/goddesses/myths, and so forth. So, you cannot disprove my belief, so than are you going to accept (at least) my belief? 

That line of thinking leaves so much open to interpret for other things, that I think it actually backfires. 

[+Sherapy]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Catch 22.

You  BELIEVE its not grounded in reality. Believers believe it is  

Both beliefs are logical and justifiable, where no evidences exist to prove or disprove the object of belief.

However, we KNOW  (scientifically and medically) that simply believing provides benefits to humans which non belief does not  

Thus, a logical/ rational human will construct and hold onto a belief in something, even if he doesn't believe it to be real    so that he/ she can gain the benefits of that belief.

Reality is irrelevant.

 Belief is all. 

 

 

Belief is good for humans, and is indeed a pro  survival trait

evolution promotes survival characteristics.

Thus, due to 100000 years or more of evolution, most of the human population are strongly predisposed to belief  and, indeed, across the world around 90% of modern humans believe in something more than the material world.  

Evolution provides what you describe  as a compulsion and thus, in fact, it is a strong biological compulsion or, driver, for human beings  . 

Explain those that don’t believe in god and are doing just fine surviving. Lol 

I understand you are looking for guarantees like a get rich quick scheme.

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Sherapy

[Stubbly_Dooright]

16 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I work for 2 Doctors and both told me diet and exercise can just about cause miracles. 

I am thinking exercise and diet would have been the golden ticket for ya. 

Not having a go at you, just thinking that not having beliefs the ones you ascribe to might be the better option. 

 

If I might be a good example to your point here.     A couple of years ago, I was diagnosed to having borderline high blood pressure. I also weighed considerably more. Even though my blood pressure has been reading normal for the last few years, (I am on medication), my doctor told me to exercise, (he even said what kinds of exercise is good) and he put me on a particular diet, (which he gave me informational sheets ((on my fridge)) about.) So, I exercised, and I dieted. I still do. I lost weight. I felt healthier. 

Though granted, I’m spiritual, (and I feel it has ‘helped’ me deal with it” ) I think I can say, I really don’t have religion (it could be the way I look at it), and my belief didn’t stop me from having slight high blood pressure. But, I am better off now, because of the exercise and dieting. It’s hard as hell, but yeah, ...... it works.   

[+Sherapy]

7 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

If I might be a good example to your point here.     A couple of years ago, I was diagnosed to having borderline high blood pressure. I also weighed considerably more. Even though my blood pressure has been reading normal for the last few years, (I am on medication), my doctor told me to exercise, (he even said what kinds of exercise is good) and he put me on a particular diet, (which he gave me informational sheets ((on my fridge)) about.) So, I exercised, and I dieted. I still do. I lost weight. I felt healthier. 

Though granted, I’m spiritual, (and I feel it has ‘helped’ me deal with it” ) I think I can say, I really don’t have religion (it could be the way I look at it), and my belief didn’t stop me from having slight high blood pressure. But, I am better off now, because of the exercise and dieting. It’s hard as hell, but yeah, ...... it works.   

Exactly, there are no quick fixes that is what your kid Xeno and I are saying. 

What works is the diet and exercise. 

Belief in god is optional, it is placebo at best, like you said it may help you cope with the long road ahead of committing to healthy choices but it doesn’t do the work for you, or give advantages.. 

Good job lady!

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Sherapy

[Stubbly_Dooright]

2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Exactly, there are no quick fixes that is what your kid Xeno and I are saying. 

What works is the diet and exercise. 

Belief in god is optional, it is placebo at best, like you said it may help you cope with the long road ahead of committing to healthy choices but it doesn’t do the work for you, or give advantages.. 

Good job lady!

 

Aww, shucks thanks!   

[+Pettytalk]

14 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

The only one that can convince you is yourself. Weak minds rarely stay convinced of anything, for long. Faith is an effort of will(no, not that Will).

Will needs no effort, if you will! Faith comes easily, if you do God's will, and not your own. Faith is effortless, if you believe, as you need not to labor for evidence, if you have it. Apparently you have never known God, although you are at hard labor to want to fool some that you do.  

Matthew 11:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Venez à moi vous tous qui êtes fatigués et chargés, et je vous soulagerai. 29Chargez mon joug sur vous, et apprenez de moi parce que je suis doux et humble de cœur; et vous trouverez le repos de vos âmes. 30Car mon joug est aisé, et mon fardeau est léger.
 

Le plus grand imbécile est celui qui travaille dur pour ce qui vient facilement.

[+Pettytalk]

13 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

How very tragic and Shakespearian. 

"Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,

20Creeps in this petty pace from day to day

To the last syllable of recorded time,

And all our yesterdays have lighted fools

The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!

Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player

25That struts and frets his hour upon the stage

And then is heard no more. It is a tale

Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing."                        Hamlet Act 5 Scene 5

Are you hinting that XF is an idiot? Shame be upon you!

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

I don’t see evidence of you being better off due to your construct building. 

Seems like he might be worse off.  After all he just responded to eight's, "You can trot out your studies showing that on average believers have better health outcomes than non-believers in this or that surveyed population. You needn't do so again; the point is granted, the studies exist.", by trotting out even more studies that were already granted do exist.  I think he missed the point.

[+Pettytalk]

13 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Which makes you a better being than the one who created that hell.

Hell is for our good, as fire is a purifier of the soul, because it melts away the super ego stuck on the souls that persist in remaining in materialism, thinking it to be the reality, before we get to go back home to our pristine and perfect world. Sort of like needing to wash up for supper after having played in the mud. Or better put with an idiom, wallowing in the mire. Those staying in hell longer are the souls who think too much of themselves, thinking there is no merciful God who freely gave us life eternal. Everyone arguing here against there being a Grand Creator, fool themselves because the soul is immortal and can endure any good or evil. We are all children and God is our Father. Like any good Father, He uses a little fear tactic to make sure we really don't hurt ourselves too severely. We are little children left in our playpen (physical world) without a babysitter, but our Father has made the pen "foolproof", since we are protected from any permanent damage, because our soul is indestructible and immortal. Remember that when you look upon the evils of the world...it's all shadows. No one stays in hell forever. It's a nice place to visit, but trust me, no one is going to live there permanently. But if you have a long visit don't worry, they do have parole there, and they let you out for good behavior, or until all that dirty superego has melted off, whichever comes first.

 

[+DieChecker]

19 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How do you cope with the times you are not happy? No one is happy all the time. 

For me, being at peace, the contentment that is the crux of my being is far more valuable, yet, this too isn’t an all the time thing  either. 

I am with X on the “happy all the time” it is extreme. 

I don’t believe anyone who claims this either.

 

Well, no one is happy all the time, except maybe toddlers. Or the insane.

I'm not happy all the time, but I strive to be in situations where I can be happy.

My usual attitude is to see the glass half full. Or even quarter full. Why not celibrate what is good, even if the bad is trying to swamp you. The bad times dont last forever...

[+Sherapy]

13 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Well, no one is happy all the time, except maybe toddlers. Or the insane.

I'm not happy all the time, but I strive to be in situations where I can be happy.

My usual attitude is to see the glass half full. Or even quarter full. Why not celibrate what is good, even if the bad is trying to swamp you. The bad times dont last forever...

Well thank you Die, I sincerely appreciate your honesty. 

Even toddler’s are not happy all the time. 

We all have some kind of coping style, mine is just accept what is and go from there, I have done this enough I know I will get through, or push through, or get back up, or grow or learn something blah blah blah.

Exactly, the bad has a shelf life too. 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Sherapy