Spiritual or science

[+DieChecker]

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I’m curious as to why you believe that. Not putting it down, or even trying to get you to not believe it. (I respect it, it is what you instinctly believe in) .... (and it would be wrong to do that.) But, as to being told, I personally don’t think so. 

...

I consider scientific things as straight out objective situations. I consider the spiritual, religion, (despite the majority of people who practice it) as more of a subjective nature. Because, to each to honestly believe, it’s what is convincing them inside of themselves. 

....

That is why I can see how one can accept the other, but yet not necessarily the other way around. 

I'll try to explain again, why I think this way.

It is true scientific things are factual, and religious things are subjective. At least for the most part.

My point is religious people shouldnt dismiss science, and factual people shouldnt dismiss what is subjective. Since something is subjective, it usually cant be proven one way or the other. Trying to disprove the subjective using facts simply isnt going to prove anything. Thus, logically, the factual cant dismiss the subjective.

So rather then saying, "God is not real", a factual statement. It is more correct to say, "I dont believe in God". Which is subjective. 

There are definitely many who reject the subjective beliefs of religion, and many who reject scientific facts out of religious fervor. But, those are based on individual opinions and experiences.

Science and religion need not conflict with each other.

Edited August 14, 2019 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I did read the rest of the posts, following this one, to see if this was then pointed out to you in disagreement. I didn’t see any, (though, I did think the varying reply posts from some as just as logical.) I don’t think one can make that claim. Usually with claims, to be believed, one should point out how the claim is true. 

Frankly, I find it kind of condescending to assume that of anyone. How can you go about proving that people ‘simply aren’t listening’? Considering that God, (which I think you have pointed out) is not proven objectively, and is a subjective thing, how can you consider that to be readily proven to people to show they aren’t listening? How can you prove how people aren’t listening? Mostly so, when everyone is different in how they believe, and how they take in information. I think the Yanni/Laurel sound clip  is a good example on how people hear differently to something that is provable. Is the blame going on the Yanni people for not hearing Laurel, or vice versa? Now, consider something, like God, that is definitely not provable, and see ‘why’ people are not listening. To make a claim, the way I see it, I think you have to prove how is it, ‘they are not listening’. 

What would be your specifics in how people would listen in the first place? 

Kind of like, some years ago, there was a poster who claimed that those who don’t believe, that God spoke to them before, and I asked how. The point was that usually it’s with someone who grew up going to church or some religious place, as usually assumed in this country. But, considering this country has the right to go or not to go to religious meetings, the chance of one not going growing up is there. I pointed that out and asked how I would get that message. No answer. Yet, that poster was still around to reply to others. 

Is it going to be something like this, how someone is not listening? I go back to my thought on the yanni/laurel crowd. 

How can I say people aren't listening...

OK, so a few assumptions. Assuming God is real. Assuming God speaks to people.

Assuming those, then we have to ask, then has God never spoken to some people? To which I have to say I don't know. But, very likely. 

Assuming that then, has God spoken to many and they were not listening? Probably. Else we'd have a lot of converts going all the time. Heck, I often hear my wife, but dont process what she said. I'm busy with something else usually. Much the same with God. Even Jesus had to walk away time after time, to be alone and have quiet, to talk to the Father.

In the context of speaking to Xeno though, I knew he has "listened", and has "heard". At least heard something, even if he thinks it was imagination currently. I've spoken to him often enough to know he has such experience. So he didnt contradict the statement. IMHO.

Quote

Here’s the thing, with that type of thinking or assumption. I don’t take the ‘you can’t disprove God, so you should at least then believe in God’ as something to accept. Because, if one is to consider not able to disprove God, than you’re not able to disprove all of the gods/goddesses/myths, and so forth. So, you cannot disprove my belief, so than are you going to accept (at least) my belief? 

That line of thinking leaves so much open to interpret for other things, that I think it actually backfires. 

I dont believe logic can be used to create belief. Logic can be used to demand tolerance though. Belief and Faith must come from the desire of relationship with God. 

I'm sorry if that is how I came across... that logic should force belief.

Belief is reinforced by Faith, which cant be earned, only accepted. Belief comes from experiences, and relationship... and sometimes by hope, or love.

I admit, that my belief is based on my experiences. If I was to pray to Thor, or Ra, or Shiva, and I got reinforcing things happening, I'd be predisposed to considering them  to be real also. 

To my knowledge I've never "heard" from another "god", though it may be I'm simply not listening for them.

I've heard from plenty of the agents of the Enemy though. I try to ignore them though. They only want destructive things.

Edited August 14, 2019 by DieChecker

[+Sherapy]

52 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

How can I say people aren't listening...

OK, so a few assumptions. Assuming God is real. Assuming God speaks to people.

Assuming those, then we have to ask, then has God never spoken to some people? To which I have to say I don't know. But, very likely. 

Assuming that then, has God spoken to many and they were not listening? Probably. Else we'd have a lot of converts going all the time. Heck, I often hear my wife, but dont process what she said. I'm busy with something else usually. Much the same with God. Even Jesus had to walk away time after time, to be alone and have quiet, to talk to the Father.

In the context of speaking to Xeno though, I knew he has "listened", and has "heard". At least heard something, even if he thinks it was imagination currently. I've spoken to him often enough to know he has such experience. So he didnt contradict the statement. IMHO.

I dont believe logic can be used to create belief. Logic can be used to demand tolerance though. Belief and Faith must come from the desire of relationship with God. 

I'm sorry if that is how I came across... that logic should force belief.

Belief is reinforced by Faith, which cant be earned, only accepted. Belief comes from experiences, and relationship... and sometimes by hope, or love.

I admit, that my belief is based on my experiences. If I was to pray to Thor, or Ra, or Shiva, and I got reinforcing things happening, I'd be predisposed to considering them  to be real also. 

To my knowledge I've never "heard" from another "god", though it may be I'm simply not listening for them.

I've heard from plenty of the agents of the Enemy though. I try to ignore them though. They only want destructive things.

You gotta lot of assumptions going there Die. 

If you were to set them to the side just for sheets and giggles what contributes to you being predisposed to believe in god and as you pointed out how do you know it is the god you believe in as opposed to RA, Thor, Shiva? Do you think this could be a habit at all?

I not seeking to change this, but get a better grasp of the believers mindset. 

Thanks for humoring me. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Sherapy

[Habitat]

2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I not seeking to change this, but get a better grasp of the believers mindset. 

Do you seek a better grasp of the mindset of, say, people who read their horoscope, and take it to heart, every day ? I'm tipping not. You know it is rubbish. That's the team, in an nutshell, arguing against there being anything in religion, but they don't argue about the validity of astrology. That's a settled matter for them. but the subject of religion, is most certainly not a settled matter for them. I'm annoying, repeating this all the time, I'm sure, but a little bit of insight into our motives, does wonders.

[+Sherapy]

9 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Do you seek a better grasp of the mindset of, say, people who read their horoscope, and take it to heart, every day ? I'm tipping not. You know it is rubbish. That's the team, in an nutshell, arguing against there being anything in religion, but they don't argue about the validity of astrology. That's a settled matter for them. but the subject of religion, is most certainly not a settled matter for them. I'm annoying, repeating this all the time, I'm sure, but a little bit of insight into our motives, does wonders.

It sounds like this is your input based on your position, it doesn’t speak for me though. 

To me, Religion is not bullshyt to those that include it in their lives, for them it has meaning and value and I rather enjoy hearing Dies thoughts on the matter. 

 

 

 

 

[Habitat]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

It sounds like this is your input based on your position, it doesn’t speak for me though. 

To me, Religion is not bullshyt to those that include it in their lives, for them it has meaning and value and I rather enjoy hearing Dies thoughts on the matter. 

 

 

 

 

Your position speaks of doubt, unacknowledged doubt, but dressed up as something else. The doubt is a very healthy thing, I'm not so sure the pretence that the "interest" is  an academic one, is.

[+Hammerclaw]

Sheri has always had an intellectual interest in a great many things, is open and curious. This doubt you speak of is something of yourself you are projecting. It's good you find it healthy. She's also quite unpretentious and her interest is quite genuine. You are a veritable cornucopia of unfounded assumptions.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Hammerclaw

[Habitat]

4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Sheri has always had an intellectual interest in a great many things, is open and curious.

All I see is an "interest" in downplaying the "spooky". You are not helping her to understand that need. I couldn't care less whether Walker's beam of light is real or not, it doesn't affect my day, or anyone else, but it apparently needs to be "explained" or rationalized away. Yep, that is the guts of it, the need to rationalize away, all that "woo" ! I certainly do admit doubt, it is the entirely sensible position in the face of great mystery, anything else is just pretence to knowing.

[+Sherapy]

35 minutes ago, Habitat said:

All I see is an "interest" in downplaying the "spooky". You are not helping her to understand that need. I couldn't care less whether Walker's beam of light is real or not, it doesn't affect my day, or anyone else, but it apparently needs to be "explained" or rationalized away. Yep, that is the guts of it, the need to rationalize away, all that "woo" ! I certainly do admit doubt, it is the entirely sensible position in the face of great mystery, anything else is just pretence to knowing.

This has to do with you Habit, you see discourse and exploration as a need to downplay. I see it as an opportunity to engage with humanity. 

I am here for the academic and personal growth and the learning. 

 I appreciate your contributions and by all means don’t go silent on us, but you are making an issue about woo, this is on you. 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Sherapy

[Habitat]

2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

This has to do with you Habit, you see discourse and exploration as a need to downplay. I see it as an opportunity to engage with humanity. 

the favourite movie of the team, is "Dr No". No God, no ghosts, no pre-cognitive dreams, no "beyond". It is an attempt to kill off troubling doubts, and of course if any aspect of "woo" was real, who knows where the rot may extend to ! The real question is, what is the fear behind these doubts ? Was it implanted by some rogue hell-fire preacher, and a residue remains ? Or is it more an intuition that is arguing its case, behind the curtains of the mind ?

[Habitat]

15 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 I appreciate your contributions and by all means don’t go silent on us

Thanks, every story needs a villain, someone has to play the role. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

Do you seek a better grasp of the mindset of, say, people who read their horoscope, and take it to heart, every day ?

Do people who read horoscopes repeatedly rant about the absolute truth of them and try to convert others to accept that truth, sometimes with threats, ostracization, and fear?  Do any of them seek to limit people's rights based on the morality contained in horoscopes?  Any bloody wars/campaigns or planes flow into buildings because the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars?  Any interesting philosophical topics generated by astrology like we hae concerning the implications of a creator existing who cares about our morality, what it even means to be good, how a religion's teachings compare to secular morality?  Was it really necessary to have these obvious differences between the two pointed out?

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

I'm annoying, repeating this all the time, I'm sure

Congratulations!  You've finally posted something that is solidly supported by the evidence.

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

but a little bit of insight into our motives, does wonders.

Perhaps you should first direct your insight towards the question of what personal issues would drive someone to admitted annoying repetition...

[+Sherapy]

18 minutes ago, Habitat said:

the favourite movie of the team, is "Dr No". No God, no ghosts, no pre-cognitive dreams, no "beyond". It is an attempt to kill off troubling doubts, and of course if any aspect of "woo" was real, who knows where the rot may extend to ! The real question is, what is the fear behind these doubts ? Was it implanted by some rogue hell-fire preacher, and a residue remains ? Or is it more an intuition that is arguing its case, behind the curtains of the mind ?

You can’t kill off doubt, fear is here to stay it is part of the human experience. 

Personally, I see  value and viability in them. 

Are you okay?

 

[Habitat]

 

30 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Do people who read horoscopes repeatedly rant about the absolute truth of them and try to convert others to accept that truth, sometimes with threats, ostracization, and fear?  Do any of them seek to limit people's rights based on the morality contained in horoscopes?  Any bloody wars/campaigns or planes flow into buildings because the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars?  Any interesting philosophical topics generated by astrology like we hae concerning the implications of a creator existing who cares about our morality, what it even means to be good, how a religion's teachings compare to secular morality?  Was it really necessary to have these obvious differences between the two pointed out?

You poor thing. You might actually be surprised by how many people make life decisions based on star signs and what not. It might well be, that you have been affected by it ! But don't complain to me about people trying to convert you by fear etc, I have never tried to convert you, so take your complaint elsewhere. And how are there any implications for you, in this God you say doesn't exist ? The fact remains, you are troubled by doubts "it" might exist, but are too benighted to see where your motives lie.

[Habitat]

31 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You can’t kill off doubt, fear is here to stay it is part of the human experience. 

Personally, I see  value and viability in them. 

Are you okay?

 

Does not explain your pre-occupation with the subject. And it seems you are trying to deflect, Jodie-style, with feigned concern about my well being, anything but face up to your obsession with "woo", you'd rather imply I am somehow mentally unhinged. Your "concerns" are unfounded .

[Habitat]

And as for someone explaining their antipathy to religion, based on some arzholes who flew planes into buildings, well that is just incredibly lame, even if their motives were based on some religious dogma, which is highly questionable, it looks for all the world like a confected excuse. I know very well, as would anyone with any insight, that the true motives for the anti-religious sentiment, is way closer to home.

[Mr Walker]

14 hours ago, Sherapy said:

In what sense is belief more powerful, stop talking in ambiguities, post up the facts. 

In cognitive and psychological  terms, it is well known that belief  (ie the values, attitudes, moralities etc etc we hold most dear) is the most powerful human driver; far more powerful than either knowledge or logic.

This is because it comes from within  us and is a part of us and thus has greater motivational power.

This knowledge has been known and understood by advertisers for at least a century, and if you do studies of advertising you can identify the beliefs which drive us to buy products, based on the images and text forms used.

  In the second half of last century, a lot of work was done by psychologists to determine just how and why our inner beliefs/ values, and  constructs, motivate our behaviours.

This understanding can  be used both to manipulate us, but also to protect us to some extent from manipulation  by others

Apart from  advertising, it's most common public use is in politics.   However it is also recognised in work place management. 

 

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-management/chapter/drivers-of-behavior/

 

Theory of planned behavior

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The theory of planned behavior.

In psychology, the Theory of Planned Behavior (abbreviated TPB) is a theory that links one's beliefs and behavior.

The theory states that attitude toward behavior, subjective norms, and perceived behavioral control, together shape an individual's behavioral intentions and behaviors.

The concept was proposed by Icek Ajzen to improve on the predictive power of the theory of reasoned action by including perceived behavioral control.[1] It has been applied to studies of the relations among beliefs, attitudes, behavioral intentions and behaviors in various fields such as advertising, public relations, advertising campaigns, healthcare, sport management and sustainability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_planned_behavior

Edited August 15, 2019 by Mr Walker

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Habitat said:

All I see is an "interest" in downplaying the "spooky". You are not helping her to understand that need. I couldn't care less whether Walker's beam of light is real or not, it doesn't affect my day, or anyone else, but it apparently needs to be "explained" or rationalized away. Yep, that is the guts of it, the need to rationalize away, all that "woo" ! I certainly do admit doubt, it is the entirely sensible position in the face of great mystery, anything else is just pretence to knowing.

Did someone rap that to you?

[Habitat]

4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Did someone rap that to you?

I do understand you are a member of the team, its a long way to lower yourself, but you got there !

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Is this supposed to be you Walls? Or wishful healthing on your part?

I don’t see evidence of you being better off due to your construct building. 

I work for 2 Doctors and both told me diet and exercise can just about cause miracles. 

I am thinking exercise and diet would have been the golden ticket for ya. 

Not having a go at you, just thinking that not having beliefs the ones you ascribe to might be the better option. 

 

neither

The y are sources which give the facts and also begin to explain WHY and HOW religion and faith add years to life, improve physical and mental health, promote healing and recovery, etc etc 

You are a pessimist    the alternate argument is that i would already be dead many years ago without  this knowldge and understanding But it is the  general principle and application, not my life, which counts. I might have smoked and lived to be 120 but that would not alter the fact that one third of smokers die from  the effects of smoking if the y do not quit. 

of course diet and exercise can  cause almost miraculous effects  

So what? That doesn't mean faith and religious practice cant  cause equally miraculous effects.

Many studies show the two things /areas to be of equal medical value and BOTH should be applied 

Ps I am almost vegetarian eat very healthily with all fresh fruit and veges and home cooked meals,  and get a lot of exercise. it was genetics which caused my problems. 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Habitat said:

I do understand you are a member of the team, its a long way to lower yourself, but you got there !

Your low blow disparaging Mr Walker's lights deserved a swift rejoinder. You are very abusive but haven't the stomach to take any. You are the very epitome of a pariah--and you did it to yourself. Does masochism run in your family?

[Habitat]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Your low blow disparaging Mr Walker's lights deserved a swift rejoinder. You are very abusive but haven't the stomach to take any. You are the very epitome of a pariah--and you did it to yourself. Does masochism run in your family?

I didn't disparage his "lights", I said the status of them was of no concern to me, and why would anyone need to "explain" it didn't happen ? Happen or not, no difference to me.

[+Hammerclaw]

2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I didn't disparage his "lights", I said the status of them was of no concern to me, and why would anyone need to "explain" it didn't happen ? Happen or not, no difference to me.

Except that rap-crap you tried to foist off on us. Oldest trick of charlatan spiritualism. 

[Habitat]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Except that rap-crap you tried to foist off on us. Oldest trick of charlatan spiritualism. 

"Us" ? The "team" ? No trick, 100% the truth, but than was just a more mundane happening, some of it is so uncanny as to be literally incredible, so I have not, and will not, speak of it. 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Habitat said:

"Us" ? The "team" ? No trick, 100% the truth, but than was just a more mundane happening, some of it is so uncanny as to be literally incredible, so I have not, and will not, speak of it. 

What? What happened to you'd put anything out to be discussed?