Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
God Lover

Spiritual or science

643 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Mr Walker
13 hours ago, danydandan said:

But what is percentage of the population that are hard-core believer's and what's the percentage of the population that are religious or spiritual?

Then you must define 'hard-core', religious and/or spiritual.

Then if I take America for example, around 22-25% of the population claim to be Atheist, Agnostic or whatever. So they have a smaller sample size. So the results are just indication of something not an actual figure. 

But study has shown the Religious/Spiritual people tend to have slightly better health......but I reckon if you carried out the same survey with the people who attent sports events like NFL, Premier League, Rugby, Cricket, AFL or whatever, every week the results may be very similar.

 

Its more complex than tha t 

 

According to the Pew Research Center in a 2014 survey, self-identified "atheists" make up 3.1% of the US population, even though 9% of Americans agreed with the statement "Do not believe in God" while 2% agreed with the statement "Do not know if they believe in God".

In both cases this is far less than 20% 

Around the world it varies but basically around 10% of modern humans say the y are atheists  A bit under 50% have a specific belief in a god or higher power  (on average.  This is a bit higher in some countries and a little lower in others)The rest say the y are spiritual and believe there is more to existence than the material universe  

These stats haven't  changed much since surveys began but we are becoming more transient ie modern humans swap religions a lot more than we did traditionally   We are also  not attending church as much but then we are not attending ANY regular events as often as earlier generations and that includes football and other events, probably  because of the  new technologies and forms of entertainment.

eg my wife hasn't attended church for several decades, but can access hymns, services,  prayers, study lessons, etc online every day.  

Ps no No other social or sporting attendance has the benefits of church attendance. MAny of the surveys allowed for, or tested for this. Certainly social interaction is a benefit but there is something about both church attendance and belief which is much more effective 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
On 8/15/2019 at 2:59 PM, Sherapy said:

To me it doesn’t sound this helped Walls anyway, so he didn’t drink, didn't smoke, yet over eats knows he  shouldn’t and didn't exercise, knows he should, knew the gene pool not in his favor on top of it.

Even if he just used the info to undergird and motivate himself to do the basics, but he didn’t.

What got him into issues the first time is on play and repeat again, this isn’t the first time he has been preaching this stuff. He was preaching this before his heart surgery when he should have been watching what he ate, getting the weight off and exercising his body as opposed to his jaw muscles. 

I am being selfish here I want him around to debate with hopefully this time he listens. 

 

very selective interpretation.

Ive described the sports activities and physical skills and work i have done all my life, yet you ignore all that 

I only slowed down after my first heart surgery 2004 and even that was temporary within 3 months i was walking  6 ks every day in an hour.  9 months later i was taking a class bush walking and abseiling despite the voiced concern of some colleagues   However after the fire destroyed our farm 2005 ,and we moved into town, there was a lot less physical labour required  No more fencing, mowing  an acre of grass,   digging kilometres of  trenches for water pipes, planting hundreds of trees by hand,  shearing,  chopping wood, gathering sleepers stumps and limbs for firewood, and cutting it all up

So i guess i did slow down a bit after age 55, but i continued geocaching, (which involved some walks of up to 10 ks to find a hidden cache)  doing a lot of walking on the beach with my wife and dog (5-10 k walks)   and gardening.  

Your problem is an abilty to see the benefits of BOTH things ie  a healthy life and a healthy mind.  

Genes play a big part.

My poor heart health is genetic but my good mental  health, and lack of diabetes etc  is also partly  genetic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
On 8/15/2019 at 3:06 PM, Sherapy said:

Overweight is bad for you hun, that is your reality, your genes aren’t the same as your mom or granny, you dude have a history of heart issues. You need to get your head in the game Walls, you have already had two serious heart surgeries. 

 

Overweight is not good but it is not necessarily bad. it depends on other factors such as fitness and exercise. (see above) but yes its a fact that  i inherited some heart issues/

My mum had a number of by passes and stents but survived until 96, dying of pneumonia after a broken hip. My dad died aged 79 on the operating table while having an operation for a stent.  He had also had a few other ops. My mum was overweight my dad as skinny as a rake .  Of course my genes are very similar to my parents and grandparents That is how genetics works :)  

Many cardiac disorders can be inherited, including arrhythmias, congenital heart disease, cardiomyopathy, and high blood cholesterol. Coronary artery disease leading to heart attack, stroke, and heart failure can run in families, indicating inherited genetic risk factor

 

my wife has had arrhythmia all her life, and inherited it for her parents. They lived well into their nineties but both had serious dementia from  their mid  eighties.  Luckilly, she seems unaffected by the arrhythmia,  but just got unlucky with her stroke which was caused by a small leakage in one of the veins in her brain.  There was no history of strokes anywhere in her family. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
22 hours ago, eight bits said:

As luck would have it, I read the bolded bits. The beginning of an explanation for causal effects and links is not a study showing that there is a cause-and-effect relationship to begin to explain.

Your claims involve causality in the sense of intervention, if a person makes some change in their life, then doing that will confer benefits upon the person. The change I specifically commented upon was a current unbeliever coming to religious belief. The problem there was that the change was impossible to manipulate experimentally, and so there are no studies showing what happens when the change is experimentally manipulated.

I imagine all this talk of correlation versus causation can quickly get boring for many readers. In this case, it may be life and death. Suppose it were the case that religious belief helps some people to maintain a healthy weight. Behold, the beginning of an explanation for causal effects. Religious belief will likely correlate with every good thing a healthy weight causes healthwise.

But suppose further somebody reasoned, "Hey, I have religious belief, so I don't have to worry about my weight. Studies show that people like me live long healthy lives."

You do see the danger in getting that wrong, right?

In part correct but that is the causal link eg faith causes less stress and anxiety and thus lowers blood pressure and reduces the risk of heart disease and stokes.

Faith gives certain values which lead to less smoking drinking better diet and less casual sex and this DOES improve health and longevity 

of course some correlations remain  complex 

Faith seems to affect the limbic system which might explain why it improves both the rate of healing and successful recovery in both trumatic injuries and some illnesses like cancer.

Yup; 5% of correlations seem to be negative for people compared with about 85% which are positive As long as one is conscious of, or warned of the risks, tha t is a very convincing argument  to do something rather than nothing

In general religions promote a healthy mind in a healthy body and so that risk is rare.

It is MUCH more common that  a person says something like " My body is gods temple i must keep it fit and healthy. "  or "To be all i can be, to do gods will,  i have to be fit and healthy"  

Some studies HAVE shown that religious beliefs like  fear of going to hell can have negative effects but, again, one can, and most people do, choose faiths which work for them, and promote well being 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
22 hours ago, third_eye said:

Classic... 

[00.00:32]

~

Have you seen the new series? Excellent viewing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
22 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Sure, you can argue anything and by golly you do, but what is supported with facts that is the important part, well not anything you are claiming.

Please reference 8ty’s posts explaining where you are confused. 

 

No they did not :) and all the facts support my posts.

We are still working on causal relationships, although some are known, but even with only correlation  the connection is so strong, particularly  in peer reviewed literature, that medical schools and hospitals all over the world are building it into their programmes and treatments. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
16 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Isn't he the one who claimed he is always happy as well?

And in my adult life, where i have control over my choices and life,  I always have been.

Generally happy and content, and often ecstatic and joyful, so that  i burst into spontaneous verse quite a lot.   How, or why , could anyone choose to be unhappy in this wonderful world.? i appreciate i live in the best of all times, in the best of all countries, and in the best of all places within that country. 

Where life is not perfect, one does not worry, but gets to work perfecting it . One does all one can for others, and then does not worry about what one cannot do. (now that we are living on the pension i have had to cancel the $200 a month we have been giving to 4 charities ( a lot less than i gave before i retired but still about 15% of my income)    I've done all i could while i could,  and don't worry  that i can no longer help them.  My wife continues to give $ 200 a month from her pension   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

I think that's pretty much it in a nutshell. No religion required. 

cormac

But as it happens this is NOT the case This has been studied extensively. While other social,activities do  help, as does owning a dog, or having a wife (but not a husband ) :)  Church attendance and spirtiual belief contribute something extra, and significant current research is happening all over the world, and gradually finding out WHY this is so 

it is currently held that religious and  spiritual beliefs are evolved characteristics with a positive survival value and thus this shows up in statistics about longevity and good physical and mental health. We have evolved  to be healthier and longer lived if we believe and/ or attend a church (any church for any religion.) This also works for meditation, chanting and prayer, which are found in many churches,  but exist outside of them 

Edited by Mr Walker
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

faith causes less stress and anxiety and thus lowers blood pressure and reduces the risk of heart disease and stokes.

I think others have already pointed this out, I think @Tiggs was the one I saw mention it a while back, but if faith is so 'strongly' positive for health, why don't you have it?  You insist here how your beliefs are not faith-based and what you believe is based on 'scientific' analysis of 'evidence', and you seem to be in the 'we can consciously choose what we believe to be true' camp, so why don't you adopt a faith?

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Overweight is not good but it is not necessarily bad.

Neither is not having faith.  For some, having faith is not good, it can exacerbate mental disorders or lead them not to seek medical treatment.  What's important is to address the needs of people, and not everyone has spiritual needs.  As has been pointed out to you before, and as is noted in many of the studies you reference (but not in your paraphrasing/embellishment of them), there are tons of confounding factors at play here; there is no need to even mention church attendance as I'm pretty sure that those who go to the grocery store are probably healthier than those who don't on average across a population, since you have to be healthy to go places.  You wave away that the least religious countries are the healthiest and say that's because of other factors, but never apply that reasoning to your own position.  You also seem to make the mistake of thinking that everyone's goal is or should be to live as long as possible; sorry, I'm content with shaving some time off my life in exchange for bacon.

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
third_eye
36 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

You wave away that the least religious countries are the healthiest and say that's because of other factors, but never apply that reasoning to your own position.  You also seem to make the mistake of thinking that everyone's goal is or should be to live as long as possible; sorry, I'm content with shaving some time off my life in exchange for bacon

Excellente... 

~

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Desertrat56
5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

And in my adult life, where i have control over my choices and life,  I always have been.

Generally happy and content, and often ecstatic and joyful, so that  i burst into spontaneous verse quite a lot.   How, or why , could anyone choose to be unhappy in this wonderful world.? i appreciate i live in the best of all times, in the best of all countries, and in the best of all places within that country. 

Where life is not perfect, one does not worry, but gets to work perfecting it . One does all one can for others, and then does not worry about what one cannot do. (now that we are living on the pension i have had to cancel the $200 a month we have been giving to 4 charities ( a lot less than i gave before i retired but still about 15% of my income)    I've done all i could while i could,  and don't worry  that i can no longer help them.  My wife continues to give $ 200 a month from her pension   

Money doesn't have anything to do with it.  Do you look into your children's eyes, do you talk to them about real things, life and society, and how they feel?  You almost seem to be bragging.  Isn't that considered a sin?  You are not perfect, good for you to admit it, but you also are not completely honest.  What kind of physical ailments do you suffer at your age?  Are you really so healthy?  How many medicines do you take daily?  I don't believe you are as good a person as you want people to think.  You are repressing something or you would not list all the things you have done you think will get you in to heaven.

I agree, it is more comfortable to choose happiness and contentment but sometimes things happen and you have to choose to be ok.  Sometimes you get angry, and if you pretend like you are not angry because you are too good to ever be angry you will die young of some horrible disease just like people who choose to be angry about everything.  It is two sides of the same coin.  There has to be balance.  And with any judaic religion I am familiar with there is no balance AND no Truth as it is dependent on "leaders" to tell you what is right and wrong.   A relationship with god, which ever form you choose, is personal and cannot be found in a book or a church that sets rules on behaviour and lifestyle.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
19 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I agree, it is more comfortable to choose happiness and contentment but sometimes things happen and you have to choose to be ok

Liked 'choose to be ok' 

 It isn't what happens in life that is so important...it is how we think about what happens  in life that is important.  Life happens to everyone...things happen to everyone.  Happiness and contentment are a result of how we think.  

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stubbly_Dooright
22 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

You wave away that the least religious countries are the healthiest and say that's because of other factors, but never apply that reasoning to your own position.  You also seem to make the mistake of thinking that everyone's goal is or should be to live as long as possible; sorry, I'm content with shaving some time off my life in exchange for bacon.

Hey, never downplay the goodness of chocolate pudding!!!!  :o  

:D  :tu:  

In other words, that’s like me, but leave the bacon out, and I’ll take the pudding. 

 

 

Ok, add the bacon in. :w00t:  

  • Like 2
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Desertrat56
6 hours ago, joc said:

Liked 'choose to be ok' 

 It isn't what happens in life that is so important...it is how we think about what happens  in life that is important.  Life happens to everyone...things happen to everyone.  Happiness and contentment are a result of how we think.  

AND what we think about how we feel in the moment.  Feelings are transient, but we can keep our anger and relive it over and over, or we can do the same with our joy.  That is what "how we think" has to do with whether we are happy, content, dissatisfied, angry etc.

The trick is to realize that if we want to relive our joy over and over we don't need to recreate the circumstances, just remember and think and relive the feeling.  People find it easy to relive anger, but for some reason can't get that it is the same way to relive joy.  Just think of your child or grandchild in a moment that made your heart feel bigger.  They may not be in the room but you still have that feeling for them.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
6 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

AND what we think about how we feel in the moment.  Feelings are transient, but we can keep our anger and relive it over and over, or we can do the same with our joy.  That is what "how we think" has to do with whether we are happy, content, dissatisfied, angry etc.

The trick is to realize that if we want to relive our joy over and over we don't need to recreate the circumstances, just remember and think and relive the feeling.  People find it easy to relive anger, but for some reason can't get that it is the same way to relive joy.  Just think of your child or grandchild in a moment that made your heart feel bigger.  They may not be in the room but you still have that feeling for them.

AND...all of that is so true!

I have posted this before but the wisdom of your post was first brought to my attention by a girl who wrote in my senior yearbook:

Remember the good and forget the bad.

So many people choose to bring the bad into every moment...its like a picture book of the bad.  Who wants to look at that all day?

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GlitterRose

It doesn't matter what you think it was, a simple banishment will do the trick. 

You could google LBRP, find it on youtube.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jmccr8
On 8/17/2019 at 8:29 PM, GlitterRose said:

It doesn't matter what you think it was, a simple banishment will do the trick. 

You could google LBRP, find it on youtube.

Aww Come on Glitter don't tax what peoples think that's all free:lol:

jmccr8

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
On 8/17/2019 at 9:29 PM, GlitterRose said:

It doesn't matter what you think it was, a simple banishment will do the trick. 

You could google LBRP, find it on youtube.

So, I googled LBRP.  

The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, or LBRP for short, is a tool to assist you in maintaining your own Light, and protect you from the overwhelming sea of emotions and energies flying about the world.

One can only 'banish' the negativism of others by maintaining one's own positive thought process.  

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Desertrat56
3 hours ago, joc said:

So, I googled LBRP.  

The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, or LBRP for short, is a tool to assist you in maintaining your own Light, and protect you from the overwhelming sea of emotions and energies flying about the world.

One can only 'banish' the negativism of others by maintaining one's own positive thought process.  

I agree, however sometimes someone might need a tool to help them and someone with magical thinking would find this tool useful.  Eventually it might occur to them that it is all in their attitude and thinking and they won't need a tool any longer.  Some people perpetrate so much anxiety in themselves that they think they need help from outside themselves.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
XenoFish
5 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I agree, however sometimes someone might need a tool to help them and someone with magical thinking would find this tool useful.  Eventually it might occur to them that it is all in their attitude and thinking and they won't need a tool any longer.  Some people perpetrate so much anxiety in themselves that they think they need help from outside themselves.

So either "fake it till you make it" or use a metaphysical placebo.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Desertrat56
9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So either "fake it till you make it" or use a metaphysical placebo.

Or a religious placebo, or medical chemicals.  What ever works until id doesn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
XenoFish
56 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Or a religious placebo, or medical chemicals.  What ever works until id doesn't.

So what's the final option? Once the spiritual placebo has lost its effect and the feeling of success/accomplishment has dulled, then what? Hedonism, nihilism? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Desertrat56
Just now, XenoFish said:

So what's the final option? Once the spiritual placebo has lost its effect and the feeling of success/accomplishment has dulled, then what? Hedonism, nihilism? 

It depends on who you are, what you think is important doesn't it?  What you choose to focus on is always most of what you experience.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
joc
12 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I agree, however sometimes someone might need a tool to help them and someone with magical thinking would find this tool useful.  Eventually it might occur to them that it is all in their attitude and thinking and they won't need a tool any longer.  Some people perpetrate so much anxiety in themselves that they think they need help from outside themselves.

I just picked something off google that seemed to have an explanation of what GlitterRose was talking about.  She said:

Quote

It doesn't matter what you think it was, a simple banishment will do the trick

It was the website that said it was a tool.  Maybe some do need a tool.  Maybe that need is an indication that some don't really know how to think...and maybe,  not knowing how to think is the reason some have the problems they have to begin with.  

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.