Spiritual or science

[Mr Walker]

On 8/16/2019 at 6:50 PM, psyche101 said:

Just curious. 

Has anyone on these boards ever agreed with your interpretation? I've only ever seen others disagree with your view. 

yea quite a few over the years, especially thOse who actuaLLY research the science. People disagree with me for many reasons,often quite personal ones 

 

QUOTE 2019 researchers at the Mayo Clinic concluded, “Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide. Several studies have shown that addressing the spiritual needs of the patient may enhance recovery from illness.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicolefisher/2019/03/29/science-says-religion-is-good-for-your-health/#4e3e879b3a12

Edited August 30, 2019 by Mr Walker

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

yea quite a few over the years, especially thOse who actuaLLY research the science. People disagree with me for many reasons,often quite personal ones 

 

QUOTE 2019 researchers at the Mayo Clinic concluded, “Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide. Several studies have shown that addressing the spiritual needs of the patient may enhance recovery from illness.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicolefisher/2019/03/29/science-says-religion-is-good-for-your-health/#4e3e879b3a12

May I ask who? 

Not doubting you I've just never seen it. If be interested to know how they come to the same conclusions as you. All the people I've seen debate the subject with you seem to come to very similar if not the same conclusions. We all actually researched the science too, which is how people with different views still come to the same deduction. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

QUOTE 2019 researchers at the Mayo Clinic concluded, “Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide. Several studies have shown that addressing the spiritual needs of the patient may enhance recovery from illness.”

Ah, no.  'Associated with' and 'may' are not your interpretation, which is usually more along the lines of 'causes' and 'proves'.

[jmccr8]

On 8/27/2019 at 2:40 PM, danydandan said:

I've been summoned????? What for?

Sorry I've been busy as of late, we just welcomed our third Babo into the world so I've been too busy to keep up with most things for the last week or three. 

I seen the Casimir effect has been mentioned, are we having a discussion about VEV and dielectrics? 

Congratulations Dany

jmccr8

[SHaYap]

Let's give this dead horse another beating... 

Quote

[00.03:32]

If you wanna go tell high level performance AI to listen carefully, you better not whisper... 

~

[Mr Walker]

20 hours ago, psyche101 said:

May I ask who? 

Not doubting you I've just never seen it. If be interested to know how they come to the same conclusions as you. All the people I've seen debate the subject with you seem to come to very similar if not the same conclusions. We all actually researched the science too, which is how people with different views still come to the same deduction. 

Who what?

Statistically only a small percentage of posters  actively disagree.They are generally people whose preexisting strong antagonism to th benefits of spiriua; be;ief and religious attendance mean they simply CANNOT  agree.  There are some who were initially sceptical but after reading the sources available realised the science behind it/.  I am not going to name names but you would be aware of those who strongly disagree and those who accept the science. i would estimate less than 6 real skeptics and a dozen or so real believers, with the rest, over the years, remaking open but unconvinced 

its interesting that some peoples personal antagonism forces them to ignore the excellent academic sources i provide eg i cant think of a more reputable and unbiased source than the mayo clinic, yet because their studies support what i have said, some people do not believe them 

many people accept the benefits of many lifestyle choices on health, yet refuse to accept the affect of spirituality and religious attendance That is a bias based on  a strong negative perception of the purpose and role of religion and spirituality in human lives. There is no evidence showing that faith and religion do harm, except in  a very few cases, and overwhelming evidence of the good they do

Thus  people who abhor religious belief,  or see it as a superstition which weakens humanity, will assume it does harm, even though it does not.

those people form the cohort of whom you speak.

One has to use those word because just as smoking did not kill every smoker religious faith may not heal every person  Association is a stronger word than you imply, as used here. ie there is a proven association between longevity and better health  just as there was a proven association between smoking an cancer and increased mortality

Edited August 31, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

19 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Ah, no.  'Associated with' and 'may' are not your interpretation, which is usually more along the lines of 'causes' and 'proves'.

untrue. You need to read at least the major summaries of thousands of reports. THERE is clinical evidence not just proving the association but explaining it.You are likE a person denying the harm from smoking back in the fifties when words like association and may were used to support the views of those with a vested interest in tobacco

[danydandan]

On 8/27/2019 at 11:29 PM, psyche101 said:

Ahhh! 

It worked!!! 

Congratulations!!!!!!!!!

Something from nothing again. Hab seems to feel virtual particles have a 0% chance at explaining existance of the universe, and Will wonders if they are cultural myths. I gave my limited understanding but they both seem to have backed off since invoking your precense with my sacrifice of the lamb. 

Thanks dude. Three under three, or Irish triplets as some would say, all happy and healthy...thank God.

I feel, perhaps I'm biased as it's my area of research, that virtual particles (at this very moment) are our best route towards understanding exactly what may have occurred as the universe started expanding rapidly ( TBBT). 

The idea that the universe is a vacuum flucuation has been around a long time. The first to mention this idea, as far as I know, is from Edward Tryon in 197something. The bottom line is that we don't understand the physics well enough to know if there is any foundation to the idea, and if it can be tested. Some arguments I've read try to explain quantum gravity as a virtual particle phenomenon......but eh I'm not sure.

[Will Due]

 

Is it an impossibility for something or a part of the universe to have always existed forever in the past?

 

 

[eight bits]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

untrue. You need to read at least the major summaries of thousands of reports. THERE is clinical evidence not just proving the association but explaining it.You are likE a person denying the harm from smoking back in the fifties when words like association and may were used to support the views of those with a vested interest in tobacco

You've really outdone yourself. To manage both an ad hominem and a strawman in so short a post. Bravo.

The actual record of this discussion is that your opponents accept the association and and explain it, too. The parting of the ways is over how best to capture the benefits of a healthy lifestyle, whether your chief prescription is even possible (whether it is possible to choose to believe something which you really don't), and if that were somehow possible, would doing that actually position the chooser the same as someone who was in these studies, presumably somebody is genuinely persuaded by spontaneous belief?

There is little or nothing that connects your opponents to the losing side in the mid-20th-century controversies over smoking. Given the prevalence of junk science and even outright fraud among the losers, you really should rethink your accusation.

 

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

untrue. You need to read at least the major summaries of thousands of reports. THERE is clinical evidence not just proving the association but explaining it.You are likE a person denying the harm from smoking back in the fifties when words like association and may were used to support the views of those with a vested interest in tobacco

This post describes you, you have a vested interest in the hope that faith will turn bad heath around. 

 

 

 

 

[XenoFish]

Faith might elevate a mood, but it won't prevent cardiac arrest. 

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Who what?

Statistically only a small percentage of posters  actively disagree.They are generally people whose preexisting strong antagonism to th benefits of spiriua; be;ief and religious attendance mean they simply CANNOT  agree.  There are some who were initially sceptical but after reading the sources available realised the science behind it/.  I am not going to name names but you would be aware of those who strongly disagree and those who accept the science. i would estimate less than 6 real skeptics and a dozen or so real believers, with the rest, over the years, remaking open but unconvinced 

its interesting that some peoples personal antagonism forces them to ignore the excellent academic sources i provide eg i cant think of a more reputable and unbiased source than the mayo clinic, yet because their studies support what i have said, some people do not believe them 

many people accept the benefits of many lifestyle choices on health, yet refuse to accept the affect of spirituality and religious attendance That is a bias based on  a strong negative perception of the purpose and role of religion and spirituality in human lives. There is no evidence showing that faith and religion do harm, except in  a very few cases, and overwhelming evidence of the good they do

Thus  people who abhor religious belief,  or see it as a superstition which weakens humanity, will assume it does harm, even though it does not.

those people form the cohort of whom you speak.

One has to use those word because just as smoking did not kill every smoker religious faith may not heal every person  Association is a stronger word than you imply, as used here. ie there is a proven association between longevity and better health  just as there was a proven association between smoking an cancer and increased mortality

Having faith doesn’t do much of anything for one’s health in a tangible way. Like X said it might give you a good attitude about your situation but If it doesn’t motivate or encourage one to follow doctors orders and make the needed changes it could be would by definition be harmful. The one who doesn’t have faith by your conditions would be better off due to the antagonistic attitude to pseudoscience, one would be focused on eating healthy, exercising, getting enough sleep, and losing weight, even faith could come in have the faith in medicine that doing these things can help a lot, or one could use faith in themselves to motivated, committed, and consistent. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Faith might elevate a mood, but it won't prevent cardiac arrest. 

My ex husband ( heart issues) is long gone due to the same kind of prattle Walker spouts. 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Sherapy

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Like X said it might give you a good attitude about your situation but If it doesn’t motivate or encourage one to follow doctors orders and make the needed changes it could be would by definition be harmful.

Faith without works is empty. 

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, XenoFish said:

Faith without works is empty. 

Yeah, the Lord moves in mysterious ways--he moved me to the hospital and the help I needed, then. God reads JAMA.

[+Sherapy]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Faith without works is empty. 

There are those that suspend judgment on the mounds of pseudoscience online because they want to buy the idea that there are ways of getting and staying healthy that require no effort.

The problem is commitment, and consistency, and patience  more than anything else. 

 

[+Sherapy]

4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yeah, the Lord moves in mysterious ways--he moved me to the hospital and the help I needed, then. God reads JAMA.

And, since then you have worked hard to loose a lot of weight and have completely turned your health around, recently celebrating some very happy kidneys.

God is good! 

 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Sherapy said:

There are those that suspend judgment on the mounds of pseudoscience online because they want to buy the idea that there are ways of getting and staying healthy that require no effort.

The problem is commitment, and consistency, and patience  more than anything else. 

 

Which isn't a problem if the changes that are made as added to your normal daily routine. A little less food, a bit more walking. Taking the stairs whenever possible. Doesn't take much and it adds up. There are no quick fixes and no instant cures, especially if you developed issues over a lifetime. 

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yeah, the Lord moves in mysterious ways--he moved me to the hospital and the help I needed, then. God reads JAMA.

Whatever works. Real or not, something got done and that's what really matters.

[+Sherapy]

Just now, XenoFish said:

Which isn't a problem if the changes that are made as added to your normal daily routine. A little less food, a bit more walking. Taking the stairs whenever possible. Doesn't take much and it adds up. There are no quick fixes and no instant cures, especially if you developed issues over a lifetime. 

Exactly and when you slip, you get back on the health plan. 

 

[+Sherapy]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Whatever works. Real or not, something got done and that's what really matters.

Indeed, he was doing what needed to be done. 

Getting the weight off is the biggest hurdle, but with it a lot of health issues disappear too. 

 

 

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Exactly and when you slip, you get back on the health plan. 

 

There is a problem though. Faith in certain regards can be a form of wish fulfillment. Where the fantasy is better than the reality of the thing. Imagining your ideal self vs doing what is needed to get there. Wishing you had 6 pack abs is a lot different from weeks of diet and exercise. The process of change is not emotionally appealing, sure being Joe/Jane SixPack is a nice idea. Yet how many people start with a raging fire and then days later are burned out? If looking at the fitness industry is an example, I'd say a lot. 

Same goes for any pursuit. Believing you can, doesn't mean you will. 

[Will Due]

 

And then there are those who'll reach the goal despite what they believe.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Will Due

[+Sherapy]

9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

There is a problem though. Faith in certain regards can be a form of wish fulfillment. Where the fantasy is better than the reality of the thing. Imagining your ideal self vs doing what is needed to get there. Wishing you had 6 pack abs is a lot different from weeks of diet and exercise. The process of change is not emotionally appealing, sure being Joe/Jane SixPack is a nice idea. Yet how many people start with a raging fire and then days later are burned out? If looking at the fitness industry is an example, I'd say a lot. 

Same goes for any pursuit. Believing you can, doesn't mean you will. 

Great pull, great point.

I don’t think faith or belief in your self is needed. What is needed is accountability, at least in my case, I meet with my scale every morning and my day goes from there. 

Making a habit of portion control, no junk food ( or if craving then have a few bites till the craving subsides) there are days I have to add in more exercise to keep my gains. I have lost 16 pounds( I am not gaining it back it was to much work to get it off) it was a matter of doing the “same” things day in and day out. 

I do well with logging things to monitor my progress and hold myself accountable. 

 

[+Sherapy]

56 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

And then there are those who'll reach the goal despite what they believe.

 

 

That is what we are saying, believing in oneself might motivate or it might not matter at all, in the end it is how many times you pushed away from the table, said no to junk eating, exercised, took the stairs instead of the elevator, got 8 hours of sleep, managed stress so you don’t binge eat as X said it all adds up, it is about what you do “not what you believe.”

Edited August 31, 2019 by Sherapy