Spiritual or science

[Will Due]

30 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

it is about what you do not what you believe. 

 

I wholeheartedly agree and not to change the subject you're on but that's exactly how I see what the path to the goal of faith is.

 

 

[+Sherapy]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

I wholeheartedly agree and not to change the subject you're on but that's exactly how I see what the path to the goal of faith is.

 

 

To what end, Will?

Not having a go at ya, just curious as to what are your faith goals and what they do for you? 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

51 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

To what end, Will?

 

Not to an end but to a beginning of what seems to me to be a reasonable thing. Living faith.

 

Quote

Not having a go at ya, just curious as to what are your faith goals and what they do for you? 

 

To me the goal of faith is to become in possession of the reward of the ages; living forever the way life was originally meant to be lived by whoever or whatever set everything in motion.

That to me, is the only goal of faith and within it, is contained everything that should be done and can be done. Which is everything that really matters. Even, and especially perhaps, to a person's health and happiness. 

In other words, the attempt at being wholehearted towards faith, is the proper way of maxing out all that is good in being human. To the exclusion of nothing.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Will Due

[+Sherapy]

4 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Not to an end but to a beginning of what seems to me to be a reasonable thing. Living faith.

 

 

To me the goal of faith is to become in possession of the reward of the ages; living forever the way life was originally meant to be lived by whoever or whatever set everything in motion.

That to me, is the only goal of faith and within it, is contained everything that should be done and can be done. Which is everything that really matters. Even, and especially perhaps, to a person's health and happiness. 

In other words, the attempt at being wholehearted towards faith, is the proper way of maxing out all that is good in being human. To the exclusion of nothing.

 

 

You want life after death?

[Mr Walker]

14 hours ago, eight bits said:

You've really outdone yourself. To manage both an ad hominem and a strawman in so short a post. Bravo.

The actual record of this discussion is that your opponents accept the association and and explain it, too. The parting of the ways is over how best to capture the benefits of a healthy lifestyle, whether your chief prescription is even possible (whether it is possible to choose to believe something which you really don't), and if that were somehow possible, would doing that actually position the chooser the same as someone who was in these studies, presumably somebody is genuinely persuaded by spontaneous belief?

There is little or nothing that connects your opponents to the losing side in the mid-20th-century controversies over smoking. Given the prevalence of junk science and even outright fraud among the losers, you really should rethink your accusation.

 

Not ad hominem i said like, and this is correct The correlation and association is proven, with  lot of the causation also being discovered.  Thus a person who denies the positive effects of spirituality and religion on human health is LIKE a person who once would have denied harm done by smoking because it was only a correlation or  association The arguments are not as universal as you suggest Many outright deny that spirituality or religion could possibly offer benefits and would like to see them eliminated as harmful superstitions  Others deny thet spirituality and religion offer special unique and additional benefits, even though the studies prove that the y do Of course we should all use every method possible to live long healthy and happy lives and that means accepting ALL things which can help us.

I dont get your last comment The science is in, Thousands of studies then meta studies of those studies give the scientific results Anyone who denies them is like a person who denies the harm done by smoking The y do so because belief and personal world view, outweighs knowledge in their minds 

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, Sherapy said:

This post describes you, you have a vested interest in the hope that faith will turn bad heath around. 

 

 

 

 

Untrue and a result of your own personal prejudices and biases As it happens i have no faith or religious belief.

I am not a spiritual person and find faith/ belief impossible. i haven't been in a church for several decades  If i was, i might be healthier.  I go, as i do with  everything,  purely on the science. 

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Faith might elevate a mood, but it won't prevent cardiac arrest. 

Spiritual belief and  church attendance have been proven to markedly reduce the likelihood of suffering such an illness in the first place  

quote

In this study, we demonstrated that individuals who had strong religiosity were significantly more likely to have favorable health habits for smoking, alcohol consumption, and exercise, as well as a better cardiovascular metabolic profile with the exception of obesity cross–sectionally. Religiosity was also less associated with future diabetes, but was unassociated with future hypertension, dyslipidemia, overweight/obesity, and worsening blood pressure, glucose, and lipid control.

These findings support the results of several previous cross–sectional studies1,9,23,24 suggesting largely positive relationships between religiosity and cardiovascular risk factors, including health habits and metabolic markers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4597307/

A systematic review of randomised controlled trials has found that religious prayer improved health outcomes in coronary patients and survival among children with leukaemia.27 Islamic-based psychotherapy also speeded recovery from anxiety and depression among Muslims.27 However, a recent well designed study of intercessory prayer found a small negative effect of prayer on patients in a coronary care unit.28 A recent review of 35 studies of the relationship between religiosity and health-related physiological processes found that both Judaeo-Christian and Eastern religious practices were associated with reduced blood pressure and improved immune function; moreover, Zen, yoga, and meditation practices correlated with lower levels of stress hormone and cholesterol and better overall health outcomes in clinical patient populations.2

 

A well documented association is the inverse relationship between religious attendance and mortality. For example, a US national study of 21 000 adults documented a strong graded association between religious attendance and mortality, with people who had never attended services having a 19 times higher risk of death over an 8-year period than those who attended more than once a week.30 This association existed for most causes of death. Striking differences in life expectancy were also evident. Life expectancy at age 20 for people who attended services more than once a week was, on average, seven and a half years longer than those who never attended. This association was even stronger in African Americans, with a 13.7-year difference in life expectancy.30 A meta-analysis of 42 studies, surveying nearly 126 000 people and controlling for sociodemographic and physical health status factors, concluded that active religious involvement increased the odds of being alive at follow-up by 26%. These effects were stronger for women than men, possibly due to differences between men and women in the psychosocial support that they receive from religion.31 A rigorous review of the empirical evidence for the association between religion and health concluded that the scientific evidence is strongest for the religious attendance–mortality association.32 The report concluded that religious service attendance was associated with a “strong, consistent, prospective and often graded reduction in risk of mortality”. After adjusting for confounding factors, the association between attendance and mortality was reduced by about 25%. The evidence was strongest for cardiovascular disease.

 

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/spirituality-religion-and-health-evidence-and-research-directions 

This is a big slab of text but includes many scientific findings on particular ways religion and spirituality (R/S) improve cardio vascular health

3. CARDIOVASCULAR FUNCTIONS AND INFLAMMATORY MARKERS

Given the relationship between R/S and the CVD risk factors above, we would predict that those who are more R/S might also have better cardiovascular functions when tested in the laboratory (i.e., lower cardiovascular reactivity, brachial artery vasoreactivity, peripheral resistance) and lower levels of inflammatory markers (proinflammatory cytokines, C-reactive protein, fibrinogen).

3a. Cardiovascular reactivity. Regarding cardiovascular reactivity (a known risk factor for CVD[98]), at least eight studies have examined relationships with R/S, and of those, four (50%) found inverse relationships [99101] or a reduction in cardiovascular reactivity with a R/S intervention [102]. One study reported a positive relationship (in a situation of unresolved justice) [103], two studies reported mixed findings (significant positive or significant negative relationships, depending on R/S characteristic) [104,105], and one study found that transcendental meditation had no effect on brachial artery vasoreactivity [106].

3b. Heart rate variability and other cardiovascular functions. Reduced heart rate variability (HRV) is a known risk factor for CVD [107]. At least four studies have examined relationship between R/S and HRV or assessed the effects of a R/S intervention on HRV. Three of these studies reported positive findings (one showing a positive relationship between R/S and HRV [108] and two finding that Eastern forms of meditation increased HRV [109,110]), whereas one study found that transcendental meditation had no effect [111]. Two additional studies have assessed other cardiac functions. One study examined the effects of saying the Ave Maria (rosary prayer) in Latin or a Tibetan Buddhist mantra (in the original language) on arterial baroreflex sensitivity (BAR) [112]. A reduction in BAR is known to predict future coronary artery disease and heart failure. Results indicated an increase in BAR with both forms of meditation. The second study examined relationships between R/S, coronary artery calcium, and left ventricular mass, finding no relationship [113].

3c. Inflammation. High levels of inflammatory markers in the blood are known to increase the risk of CVD [114 117]. The relationship between R/S and inflammatory markers is a complex one, since the mechanism by which R/S affects inflammatory markers is indirect acting through psychological, social, and behavioral pathways. Furthermore, psychological states (and certain mental disorders) may influence inflammatory marker levels in opposite directions; for example, depression is associated with high levels of the pro-inflammatory marker IFN-γ[118], whereas PTSD and acute stress have been associated with low levels of IFN-γ[119]. As a result, treatments for these mental disorders may either decrease or increase IFN-γin order to normalize levels. With these complexities mind, we review studies that have examined relationships between R/S and inflammatory markers or have assessed the effects of a R/S intervention on pro-inflammatory cytokines such as interluekin-6 (IL6) or interferon gamma (IFN-γ), other pro-inflammatory markers such as C-reactive protein (CRP) and fibrinogen, and the anti-inflammatory cytokines interleukin-4 (IL-4) and interleukin-10 (IL-10).

3c.1. Interleukin-6. At least nine studies have examined relationships between R/S and blood levels of IL-6. Of those, five (56%) reported significant inverse relationships [120,121] or a reduction in IL-6 in response to a R/S intervention [122-124]. In contrast, IL-6 levels appear to be increased in cardiac surgery patients undergoing existential stress related to religious struggles [125] or may be increased in response to a spiritual intervention [126].

3c.2. Interferon gamma. As noted above, IFN-γis increased in major depression [127] and decreases in response to treatment [128]. However, IFN-γis suppressed by cortisol [129], decreases in response to acute psychological stress [130], and may actually increase in response to treatment in those with low INF-γlevels [131,132]. Three studies have examined the effects of R/S interventions on INF-γlevels in blood. All three found that the R/S intervention significantly increased INF-γlevels [133-135].

3c.3. C-reactive protein. There is strong evidence that pro-inflammatory CRP plays a role in the development of atherosclerosis and coronary heart disease [136]. Eight studies have now examined relationships with R/S. Of those, four (50%) reported significant inverse relationships [137-139] or a reduction in CRP in response to a R/S intervention [140]; the other four studies found no association. More recent research supports an inverse relationship between R/S and CRP [141].

3c.4. Fibrinogen. Only one study, to our knowledge, has examined relationships between serum fibrinogen (a key factor in the development of CVD [142]) and R/S. That study examined the relationship between frequency of religious attendance (as part of a two-item social index) and fibrinogen levels, finding a significant inverse relationship after controlling for multiple covariates [143].

3c.5. Anti-inflammatory cytokines. Anti-inflammatory cytokines such as IL-4 and IL-10 have the opposite effect of pro-inflammatory cytokines on the development of atherosclerotic plaque [144]. At least two studies have now examined the relationship between R/S and anti- inflammatory cytokines. In our systematic review, we identified one study that examined the effects of Buddhist- based mindfulness meditation (MM) on IL-4 and IL-10 levels in 66 women recently diagnosed with breast cancer [145]. Those receiving MM experienced a significant reduction in IL-4 and IL-10 levels compared to controls (approximating that of women without breast cancer) during the 8-week follow-up. Note, however, that anti- inflammatory cytokines may be increased in situations of acute stress [146]. A more recent study examined cytokine levels in 33 very elderly persons with cardiovascular disease (mean age 87) who participated in weekly 30-minute sermons by chaplains over 20 months [147]. Plasma IL-10 and IL-6 levels were compared to 26 age-matched controls (mean age 85) without the intervention. Results indicated that the IL-10/IL-6 ratio was significantly higher in those listening to the sermons compared to controls (3.96 vs. 1.79, P<0.05).

In summary, the majority of studies find that cardiovascular reactivity and other cardiovascular responses are healthier (lower risk in terms of CVD) in those who are more R/S or receiving R/S interventions. Likewise, except in situations of acute psychological stress, the majority of studies find that R/S or R/S interventions are associated with lower levels of inflammatory markers known to be involved in CVD pathogenesis.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0102-76382013000100015

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Will Due]

6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

You want life after death?

 

I want to overcome death with life.

 

 

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Having faith doesn’t do much of anything for one’s health in a tangible way. Like X said it might give you a good attitude about your situation but If it doesn’t motivate or encourage one to follow doctors orders and make the needed changes it could be would by definition be harmful. The one who doesn’t have faith by your conditions would be better off due to the antagonistic attitude to pseudoscience, one would be focused on eating healthy, exercising, getting enough sleep, and losing weight, even faith could come in have the faith in medicine that doing these things can help a lot, or one could use faith in themselves to motivated, committed, and consistent. 

 

 

My ex husband ( heart issues) is long gone due to the same kind of prattle Walker spouts. 

 

Wrong You refuse to read or believe the sources i have given 

Plus i argue for using ALL and every means of achieving good health and longevity. It is you who is denying one of the mos powerful and proven ways to achieve good health happiness and a long lfe 

If oyu believe spirituality and religious attendance does not improve health outcomes and longevity, then you have not read or have not accepted the scientific proofs and evidences available And sorry but for most their religion prompts them to develop a healthy mind in a healthy body and so it DOES promote having a good relationship with doctors medicine and other professional ald  

Snake handling Christians are rather restricted to hill billies. Every religious person i know makes maximum use of modern medicine  

[Will Due]

5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Snake handling Christians are rather restricted to hillbillies. 

 

Not in Beverly Hills they're not.

 

 

[Mr Walker]

46 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Not in Beverly Hills they're not.

 

 

lol I was speaking metaphorically, but i assume there are  many hill billies in them thar  Beverly hills.  The Appalachians seem to be their spiritual home territory 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Mr Walker

[eight bits]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Not ad hominem i said like

That is irrelevant to the ad hominem character of the argument you offered. As a professional English teacher, you already know that.

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Thus a person who denies the positive effects of spirituality and religion on human health is LIKE a person who once would have denied harm done by smoking because it was only a correlation or  association

Cleaning up your accusation now that it's mean-spirited stupidity has been spotlighted? What happened to the part about being like those who expressed the opinions they did for mercenary purposes, in order to serve tobacco interests? The frauds, stooges and junk science peddlers?

The fact is that your opponents' case is not that the observed association is non-causal, but rather that the causation is indirect, and that the observed benefits can be had in other ways, at lower overall cost, with interventions that are available to a larger population than those who might be persuaded to adopt some religious system.

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Others deny thet spirituality and religion offer special unique and additional benefits, even though the studies prove that the y do

Unique and additional benefits compared with what? Spirtuality and religion covers a broad sweep of human experience. Which of your many studies displays the hubris of deciding whose spirituality is valid and whose isn't?

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Of course we should all use every method possible to live long healthy and happy lives and that means accepting ALL things which can help us.

No. It has already been pointed out to you that long healthy and happy are not consonant life goals, therefore trade-offs are necessary. I will sometimes cross the street, despite the finite ever-present risk of being mauled by a distracted driver, for whatever meager emolument is on the other side. As the old joke goes, we've established the principle, and now we're dickering about the price.

But, thank you for copping to what your argument is, and what your opponents actually deny: that these studies offer any reason for somebody who is not already pursuing a religious lifestyle to try to adopt one. They do not.

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Anyone who denies them is like a person who denies the harm done by smoking The y do so because belief and personal world view, outweighs knowledge in their minds 

Ah, present tense smoking-harm deniers; a new population, the grandchildren and great grandchildren of the group you originally and falsely likened to those who disagree with you. By and large, even the tobacco interests don't deny the harm anymore. They, too, are now dickering about the price.

The ad hominem remains, however. Your new disparaging comparison group is ignorant of well-understood science, when it is perfectly obvious that your opponents aren't. And you're still strawmanning.

[+Pettytalk]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol I was speaking metaphorically, but i assume there are  many hill billies in them thar  Beverly hills.  The Appalachians seem to be their spiritual home territory 

You may be right!

 

[+Pettytalk]

58 minutes ago, eight bits said:

That is irrelevant to the ad hominem character of the argument you offered. As a professional English teacher, you already know that.

Cleaning up your accusation now that it's mean-spirited stupidity has been spotlighted? What happened to the part about being like those who expressed the opinions they did for mercenary purposes, in order to serve tobacco interests? The frauds, stooges and junk science peddlers?

The fact is that your opponents' case is not that the observed association is non-causal, but rather that the causation is indirect, and that the observed benefits can be had in other ways, at lower overall cost, with interventions that are available to a larger population than those who might be persuaded to adopt some religious system.

Unique and additional benefits compared with what? Spirtuality and religion covers a broad sweep of human experience. Which of your many studies displays the hubris of deciding whose spirituality is valid and whose isn't?

No. It has already been pointed out to you that long healthy and happy are not consonant life goals, therefore trade-offs are necessary. I will sometimes cross the street, despite the finite ever-present risk of being mauled by a distracted driver, for whatever meager emolument is on the other side. As the old joke goes, we've established the principle, and now we're dickering about the price.

But, thank you for copping to what your argument is, and what your opponents actually deny: that these studies offer any reason for somebody who is not already pursuing a religious lifestyle to try to adopt one. They do not.

Ah, present tense smoking-harm deniers; a new population, the grandchildren and great grandchildren of the group you originally and falsely likened to those who disagree with you. By and large, even the tobacco interests don't deny the harm anymore. They, too, are now dickering about the price.

The ad hominem remains, however. Your new disparaging comparison group is ignorant of well-understood science, when it is perfectly obvious that your opponents aren't. And you're still strawmanning.

All I got out all that, is that you are probably a current nonsmoker and a non-chewer of tobacco products. Poor Mr. Walker is the only smoker here, as he is getting smoked by everyone, nearly.  And I'm a current second-hand smoker.

[Alchopwn]

4 hours ago, Will Due said:

I want to overcome death with life.

I want to beat entropy with it's opposite.  Same thing really.

[+Sherapy]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Wrong You refuse to read or believe the sources i have given 

Plus i argue for using ALL and every means of achieving good health and longevity. It is you who is denying one of the mos powerful and proven ways to achieve good health happiness and a long lfe 

If oyu believe spirituality and religious attendance does not improve health outcomes and longevity, then you have not read or have not accepted the scientific proofs and evidences available And sorry but for most their religion prompts them to develop a healthy mind in a healthy body and so it DOES promote having a good relationship with doctors medicine and other professional ald  

Snake handling Christians are rather restricted to hill billies. Every religious person i know makes maximum use of modern medicine  

Walker you are proselytizing and what I find interesting is that you do so while insisting you don’t have faith, you claim to not align with any religion and you haven’t been to church in years. Your opinion isn’t even based on any experience. Basically, you google articles and post them demanding that we listen to you, the one who needs good health is you. 

 My two cents is instead of trying to micro-manage our health focus on your own, let your locus of control be yourself, my hunch is this where it is really gonna make a difference as opposed to finding ways to stir conflict on a forum. If someone really wants your advice they can PM you. 

For your consideration a good way as any, without any need for a membership, to any dogma or any need for faith at all and what most doctors say is to eat healthy and in moderation, exercise, sleep enough, have an ability to push yourself away for the table, and have some kind of stress management coping style (if warranted/needed ) to avoid, the overeating that is associated with stress. 

 

 

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, eight bits said:

That is irrelevant to the ad hominem character of the argument you offered. As a professional English teacher, you already know that.

Cleaning up your accusation now that it's mean-spirited stupidity has been spotlighted? What happened to the part about being like those who expressed the opinions they did for mercenary purposes, in order to serve tobacco interests? The frauds, stooges and junk science peddlers?

The fact is that your opponents' case is not that the observed association is non-causal, but rather that the causation is indirect, and that the observed benefits can be had in other ways, at lower overall cost, with interventions that are available to a larger population than those who might be persuaded to adopt some religious system.

Unique and additional benefits compared with what? Spirtuality and religion covers a broad sweep of human experience. Which of your many studies displays the hubris of deciding whose spirituality is valid and whose isn't?

No. It has already been pointed out to you that long healthy and happy are not consonant life goals, therefore trade-offs are necessary. I will sometimes cross the street, despite the finite ever-present risk of being mauled by a distracted driver, for whatever meager emolument is on the other side. As the old joke goes, we've established the principle, and now we're dickering about the price.

But, thank you for copping to what your argument is, and what your opponents actually deny: that these studies offer any reason for somebody who is not already pursuing a religious lifestyle to try to adopt one. They do not.

Ah, present tense smoking-harm deniers; a new population, the grandchildren and great grandchildren of the group you originally and falsely likened to those who disagree with you. By and large, even the tobacco interests don't deny the harm anymore. They, too, are now dickering about the price.

The ad hominem remains, however. Your new disparaging comparison group is ignorant of well-understood science, when it is perfectly obvious that your opponents aren't. And you're still strawmanning.

Love this! 

I cant help but wonder how stress inducing and taxing on the heart it is to be in conflict all the time. 

Who wouldn’t want to read or talk their way to good health, perhaps for some in a distance future... but for now the tired and true mundane ways (depending on one’s situation) could begin with eat healthy, exercising, getting enough shut eye, having a stress management coping style that doesn’t exasperate one’s stress level dot, dot, dot. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

13 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

I want to overcome death with life.

 

 

Why? 

[+Sherapy]

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Not ad hominem i said like, and this is correct The correlation and association is proven, with  lot of the causation also being discovered.  Thus a person who denies the positive effects of spirituality and religion on human health is LIKE a person who once would have denied harm done by smoking because it was only a correlation or  association The arguments are not as universal as you suggest Many outright deny that spirituality or religion could possibly offer benefits and would like to see them eliminated as harmful superstitions  Others deny thet spirituality and religion offer special unique and additional benefits, even though the studies prove that the y do Of course we should all use every method possible to live long healthy and happy lives and that means accepting ALL things which can help us.

I dont get your last comment The science is in, Thousands of studies then meta studies of those studies give the scientific results Anyone who denies them is like a person who denies the harm done by smoking The y do so because belief and personal world view, outweighs knowledge in their minds 

The question is what is the better than that faith offers over and beyond the good health one would obtain from just following medical advice depending on the diagnosis?

Walls, you claim you don’t follow a religion, you do not use faith, you don’t attend church, you have no experience at all or any wisdom to share that is not over and beyond, so why are you proselytizing?

Not having a go atcha, just curious.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Why? 

 

So I can continue to co-operate.

 

 

[Habitat]

3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Walls, you claim you don’t follow a religion, you do not use faith, you don’t attend church, you have no experience at all or any wisdom to share that is not over and beyond, so why are you proselytizing?

You don't try and convert him to your opinions, and way of thinking ? Of course you do. 

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

So I can continue to co-operate.

 

 

Cooperate? Not following, 

[+Sherapy]

29 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You don't try and convert him to your opinions, and way of thinking ? Of course you do. 

How so.

[Habitat]

7 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

How so.

By trying to drum into him, that his ideas are wrong, and your ideas are right.

[Aquila King]

6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I cant help but wonder how stress inducing and taxing on the heart it is to be in conflict all the time. 

Eventually you reach the point of total surrender, where you basically just go with anything and everything the other person wants, just to avoid any potential conflict.

Lessons learned from growing up with a narcissistic parent.