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God Lover

Spiritual or science

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Habitat
7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

 My two cents is instead of trying to micro-manage our health focus on your own, let your locus of control be yourself, my hunch is this where it is really gonna make a difference as opposed to finding ways to stir conflict on a forum.

You must be reading him rather differently, to deduce that he is "stirring conflict". Unless you want to see nothing but your own ideas promoted, and anything to the contrary is an affront ?

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

You must be reading him rather differently, to deduce that he is "stirring conflict". Unless you want to see nothing but your own ideas promoted, and anything to the contrary is an affront ?

I am it shocked that you would advocate controversy, but perhaps one  can promote ideas, stimulate conversation and not generate conflict. 

I am not asking that he has no voice, or silences his only that he uses one other than his proselytizing one.

:D

Edited by Sherapy
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psyche101
On 8/31/2019 at 5:46 PM, Mr Walker said:

Who what?

Who are these UM posters who have agreed with your interpretation. 

I didn't think that was all that cryptic? 

Quote

Statistically only a small percentage of posters  actively disagree.They are generally people whose preexisting strong antagonism to th benefits of spiriua; be;ief and religious attendance mean they simply CANNOT  agree.  There are some who were initially sceptical but after reading the sources available realised the science behind it/.  I am not going to name names but you would be aware of those who strongly disagree and those who accept the science. i would estimate less than 6 real skeptics and a dozen or so real believers, with the rest, over the years, remaking open but unconvinced 

its interesting that some peoples personal antagonism forces them to ignore the excellent academic sources i provide eg i cant think of a more reputable and unbiased source than the mayo clinic, yet because their studies support what i have said, some people do not believe them 

many people accept the benefits of many lifestyle choices on health, yet refuse to accept the affect of spirituality and religious attendance That is a bias based on  a strong negative perception of the purpose and role of religion and spirituality in human lives. There is no evidence showing that faith and religion do harm, except in  a very few cases, and overwhelming evidence of the good they do

Thus  people who abhor religious belief,  or see it as a superstition which weakens humanity, will assume it does harm, even though it does not.

those people form the cohort of whom you speak.

One has to use those word because just as smoking did not kill every smoker religious faith may not heal every person  Association is a stronger word than you imply, as used here. ie there is a proven association between longevity and better health  just as there was a proven association between smoking an cancer and increased mortality

I know your version. I'm not asking for that. Just who has actually agreed with it. 

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Mr Walker
20 hours ago, eight bits said:

That is irrelevant to the ad hominem character of the argument you offered. As a professional English teacher, you already know that.

Cleaning up your accusation now that it's mean-spirited stupidity has been spotlighted? What happened to the part about being like those who expressed the opinions they did for mercenary purposes, in order to serve tobacco interests? The frauds, stooges and junk science peddlers?

The fact is that your opponents' case is not that the observed association is non-causal, but rather that the causation is indirect, and that the observed benefits can be had in other ways, at lower overall cost, with interventions that are available to a larger population than those who might be persuaded to adopt some religious system.

Unique and additional benefits compared with what? Spirtuality and religion covers a broad sweep of human experience. Which of your many studies displays the hubris of deciding whose spirituality is valid and whose isn't?

No. It has already been pointed out to you that long healthy and happy are not consonant life goals, therefore trade-offs are necessary. I will sometimes cross the street, despite the finite ever-present risk of being mauled by a distracted driver, for whatever meager emolument is on the other side. As the old joke goes, we've established the principle, and now we're dickering about the price.

But, thank you for copping to what your argument is, and what your opponents actually deny: that these studies offer any reason for somebody who is not already pursuing a religious lifestyle to try to adopt one. They do not.

Ah, present tense smoking-harm deniers; a new population, the grandchildren and great grandchildren of the group you originally and falsely likened to those who disagree with you. By and large, even the tobacco interests don't deny the harm anymore. They, too, are now dickering about the price.

The ad hominem remains, however. Your new disparaging comparison group is ignorant of well-understood science, when it is perfectly obvious that your opponents aren't. And you're still strawmanning.

Not ad hominem.

I was making a direct comparison between attitudes to two different  arguments

When people hold such a view they have similarities in their beliefs and logical thinking eg denying tha t correlation  is of concern until causation is proven  This was common among deniers in the early smoking debate and is common among deniers of the  positive effects of spirituality and religion on longevity and health   Correlation is established and this is enough to act upon  (as it was with smoking)  but also causation is being established 

Speaking of ad hominem attacks ?

That may be your position but it s not the  position of most of those here who deny that relgion and spirtuailty can have ANY positive effects because the y are inherently harmful 

I am happy to argue things like costs. In itself belief and spirituality  costs nothing compered to owning a dog or going to gym, and indeed some studies have shown belief and religion to be the cheapest way to achieve similar outcomes

Compared specifically  to other social,activities eg going to church (any church) once a week  gives benefits far greater than going to any other form of social  activity (although these also confer some benefit) 

To me long, healthy and happy are indeed consonant goals and outcomes as the y are, both directly and inversely, related.  One aims for a long healthy and  happy life.  This does not guarantee it for any individual but raises the chances of achieving it. Also it gives social  and economic benefits when taken across populations  There are studies which show the savings  within health systems from the extended healthier and happier lives of a population

the y do give a good argument  for being spiritual or attending church just as jogging, a healthy diet  owning a dog, and other life choices  all contribute to well being 

What gets me is how an intelligent person like you cannot see this 

My point is simple.

there are many lifestyle choices  which will (almost certainly)  improve your well being and longevity   A wise person would adopt as many of them as possible and certainly not simply deny the validity of one because it contradicts their world view. Eg being vegetarian has a tremendous positive  effect on human health as does not drinking or smoking   Logically we would all be non drinking non smoking vegetarians But there are many personal and social blocks to this happening.

  it is one thing to recognise the benefits of vegetarianism and chose not to be one and anther thing to deny that there ARE any benefits  One thing to recognise the dangers pf alcohol and tobacco and  still choose to use them, and another to deny that they cause harm 

 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
19 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

All I got out all that, is that you are probably a current nonsmoker and a non-chewer of tobacco products. Poor Mr. Walker is the only smoker here, as he is getting smoked by everyone, nearly.  And I'm a current second-hand smoker.

lol i am a non smoker, non drinker, and non drug user and have been for 45 years  I am not stupid, and as soon as i knew the dangers of certain  lifestyle choices i did my best to avoid them  i also don't eat red meet or any forms of shell fish or pork products  for a variety of reasons. including animal rights, environmental issues of sustainability, and health  ones  I would encourage others to do likewise but i am not fanatical about it and recognise the rights of others to make different choices 

I would prefer to be vegetarian but its sometimes impractical  so i am about 80% vegetarian 

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Will Due
6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Cooperate? Not following, 

 

Everything that lives, operates in partnership with at least one other living thing.

Without co-operation, nothing will live for long.

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Mr Walker
12 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Walker you are proselytizing and what I find interesting is that you do so while insisting you don’t have faith, you claim to not align with any religion and you haven’t been to church in years. Your opinion isn’t even based on any experience. Basically, you google articles and post them demanding that we listen to you, the one who needs good health is you. 

 My two cents is instead of trying to micro-manage our health focus on your own, let your locus of control be yourself, my hunch is this where it is really gonna make a difference as opposed to finding ways to stir conflict on a forum. If someone really wants your advice they can PM you. 

For your consideration a good way as any, without any need for a membership, to any dogma or any need for faith at all and what most doctors say is to eat healthy and in moderation, exercise, sleep enough, have an ability to push yourself away for the table, and have some kind of stress management coping style (if warranted/needed ) to avoid, the overeating that is associated with stress. 

 

 

I am speaking of my life experiences and how the y affected me You dont believe them so there is no point you commenting 

lol Thanks for your advice but i rely on a body of experts who are perhaps the most capable in the world  (google professor Prash sanders who is my cardiac specialist )

yep all those things help I agree,  so why do you deny that  faith and belief, and going to church, are at least as effective/powerful, much easier and cheaper to maintain  

lolI have a dietitian among my health team and i can assure you that my diet is about the best one can achieve.

My health issues are (according to the experts) genetic and not lifestyle related.

I can improve my chances by good lifestyle, but the underlying genetic causes cant be treated   

Ps all the forms you recommend (bolded)  require a form of faith and dogma, to follow and to sustain.  

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Why? 

You really need to ask this question?

Anyone who prefers death to life must be having a truly terrible life, or suffer from some form of mental illness/depression anxiety etc.   

We only have one life. I intend to enjoy it, and fight as hard as i can to keep it. 

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onlookerofmayhem
3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

We only have one life. I intend to enjoy it, and fight as hard as i can to keep it.

Indeed. Too bad we all know that none of us will win that war. 

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

The question is what is the better than that faith offers over and beyond the good health one would obtain from just following medical advice depending on the diagnosis?

Walls, you claim you don’t follow a religion, you do not use faith, you don’t attend church, you have no experience at all or any wisdom to share that is not over and beyond, so why are you proselytizing?

Not having a go atcha, just curious.

I dont understand your question.

Medical scince offers a lot and i make the most of it.

eg i just had a pacemaker installed and I will be having cardiac ablation later this year

However  forms of mental  well being, including faith belief meditation etc are proven to have very powerful positive effects on well being, healing, recovery from illness, reducing pain perception,etc etc.

I would be a fool not to make use of modern medicine but i would also be a fool not to recognise and use the advantage conferred by a strong and disciplined mind and good health practices coming from relgious teachings 

So while the doctors fix my body, my mind contributes to the  healing, the well being the lack of anxiety depression or worry suffered by many patients. It also contributes to   the success of the operations and medical outcomes.  This is all proven medical science.

it is not proselytising to advise people of the medical benefits of faith and religion, or of the harm from tobacco or  alcohol, when those facts are scientifically established   It would be remiss of me, having this knowledge, NOT to inform others.  What the y do then is up to them.  

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Who are these UM posters who have agreed with your interpretation. 

I didn't think that was all that cryptic? 

I know your version. I'm not asking for that. Just who has actually agreed with it. 

I am not going to answer this.

As a long term reader you must know the answer as well as i do.

Generally, all those posters with a spiritual element to their world view rather than a totally material one, are at least sympathetic and many are supportive. There are more of them over the years than active /loud  dissenters  But the active loud dissenters  tend to drive others away 

In the end I go with the science. There is no point arguing with me. I simply use modern medical science. You have to be able to argue and dispute the growing body of evidences, rather than me. 

quote

 Numerous studies have pointed out the beneficial influence1 of religion on mental health.2 As a 2015 review of the literature on the topic illustrates:

n general, studies of subjects in different settings (such as medical, psychiatric, and the general population), from different ethnic backgrounds (such as Caucasian, African American, Hispanic, and Native American), in different age groups (young, middle-aged, and elderly), and in different locations (such as the United States and Canada, Europe, and countries in the East) find that religious involvement is related to better coping with stress and less depression, suicide, anxiety, and substance abuse.3

Similarly, research published in 2006 found that there is an overwhelming positive relationship between religiosity and numerous measures of emotional well-being. According to the study:

Most studies have also found a positive association between religiosity and other factors associated with well-being such as optimism and hope (12 out of 14 studies), self-esteem (16 out of 29 studies, but only one with a negative association), sense of meaning and purpose in life (15 out of 16 studies), internal locus of control, social support (19 out of 20) and being married or having higher marital satisfaction (35 out of 38).4

What is more, congruent findings were determined by a 2015 review examining over 3000 scholarly articles for the International Journal of Emergency Mental Health and Human Resilience, which found a “positive effect” of religion/spirituality on a variety of health outcomes, including: “minor depression, faster recovery from depressive episodes, lower rates of suicide, less use, abuse and substance dependence, greater well-being, and self-reported happiness.”5

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-positive-effects-of-religion-on-mental-illness

there are some negative correlations but less than 10% of the total cases 

 

quote

 

Beyond the data on the topic, religion has a therapeutic effect on mental health by granting individuals valuable coping skills that are accessible “regardless of financial, social, physical, or mental circumstances."12 Furthermore, religions tend to prescribe healthy lifestyle practices (for example: rest, monogamous sex, moderation in all things), give individuals social support (resulting in a sense of belonging and a sense of being cared for by their group), and help their adherents develop cognitive frameworks that assist them through life's difficulties.13

Additionally, religion enhances adherents’ internal locus of control, which (as opposed to an external one)14 allows individuals to respond to the same problem in a manner that is beneficial to their well-being.15 Correspondingly, through the use of religious practices, such as prayer or meditation, religious individuals can counter damaging tendencies brought about by their illness and can “reduce tension and anxiety, diminish self-blame, stabilize emotional ups and downs, and improve self-knowledge,”16 as well as improve the management of obstacles such as: “Panic attacks, generalized anxiety disorder, depression, insomnia, drug use, stress, chronic pain and other health problems."17

The beneficial assets of religious coping on mental health are consistent across age, race, gender, nationality, and socioeconomic status, and they appear to be higher "for those under stressful circumstances."18 Hence, religious coping serves as a valuable resource for individuals who are affected by mental illness, especially disadvantaged groups who experience substantial stress in daily life, greater rates of mental disorders, and who lack the social support and financial means to treat their illness.

 

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/spirituality-religion-and-health-evidence-and-research-directions

Edited by Mr Walker

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eight bits
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Eg being vegetarian has a tremendous positive  effect on human health as does not drinking or smoking   Logically we would all be non drinking non smoking vegetarians But there are many personal and social blocks to this happening.

And so we are in agreement that trade-offs are necessary. Maybe somebody will cut down on how much of which meat they eat, drink in moderation, smoke only an occasional cigar, and so on. This person will forego some of the tremendous positive effects that squeaky-clean living may confer, in order to enjoy some of the social and personal benefits of occasional moderate indulgence during an adequately healthy and venerably long life.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

and another to deny that they cause harm 

Yes, it is another thing. Your opponents don't deny the harm, and don't deny that some religious people abstain because of their beliefs about supernatural matters. Nevertheless you argue these uncontested points repeatedly, as if they were contested. You are strawmanning.

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third_eye

Drawing Straws on a "strawman" ,actually... 

~

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psyche101
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I am not going to answer this.

As a long term reader you must know the answer as well as i do.

Generally, all those posters with a spiritual element to their world view rather than a totally material one, are at least sympathetic and many are supportive. There are more of them over the years than active /loud  dissenters  But the active loud dissenters  tend to drive others away 

In the end I go with the science. There is no point arguing with me. I simply use modern medical science. You have to be able to argue and dispute the growing body of evidences, rather than me. 

quote

 Numerous studies have pointed out the beneficial influence1 of religion on mental health.2 As a 2015 review of the literature on the topic illustrates:

n general, studies of subjects in different settings (such as medical, psychiatric, and the general population), from different ethnic backgrounds (such as Caucasian, African American, Hispanic, and Native American), in different age groups (young, middle-aged, and elderly), and in different locations (such as the United States and Canada, Europe, and countries in the East) find that religious involvement is related to better coping with stress and less depression, suicide, anxiety, and substance abuse.3

Similarly, research published in 2006 found that there is an overwhelming positive relationship between religiosity and numerous measures of emotional well-being. According to the study:

Most studies have also found a positive association between religiosity and other factors associated with well-being such as optimism and hope (12 out of 14 studies), self-esteem (16 out of 29 studies, but only one with a negative association), sense of meaning and purpose in life (15 out of 16 studies), internal locus of control, social support (19 out of 20) and being married or having higher marital satisfaction (35 out of 38).4

What is more, congruent findings were determined by a 2015 review examining over 3000 scholarly articles for the International Journal of Emergency Mental Health and Human Resilience, which found a “positive effect” of religion/spirituality on a variety of health outcomes, including: “minor depression, faster recovery from depressive episodes, lower rates of suicide, less use, abuse and substance dependence, greater well-being, and self-reported happiness.”5

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-positive-effects-of-religion-on-mental-illness

there are some negative correlations but less than 10% of the total cases 

 

quote

 

Beyond the data on the topic, religion has a therapeutic effect on mental health by granting individuals valuable coping skills that are accessible “regardless of financial, social, physical, or mental circumstances."12 Furthermore, religions tend to prescribe healthy lifestyle practices (for example: rest, monogamous sex, moderation in all things), give individuals social support (resulting in a sense of belonging and a sense of being cared for by their group), and help their adherents develop cognitive frameworks that assist them through life's difficulties.13

Additionally, religion enhances adherents’ internal locus of control, which (as opposed to an external one)14 allows individuals to respond to the same problem in a manner that is beneficial to their well-being.15 Correspondingly, through the use of religious practices, such as prayer or meditation, religious individuals can counter damaging tendencies brought about by their illness and can “reduce tension and anxiety, diminish self-blame, stabilize emotional ups and downs, and improve self-knowledge,”16 as well as improve the management of obstacles such as: “Panic attacks, generalized anxiety disorder, depression, insomnia, drug use, stress, chronic pain and other health problems."17

The beneficial assets of religious coping on mental health are consistent across age, race, gender, nationality, and socioeconomic status, and they appear to be higher "for those under stressful circumstances."18 Hence, religious coping serves as a valuable resource for individuals who are affected by mental illness, especially disadvantaged groups who experience substantial stress in daily life, greater rates of mental disorders, and who lack the social support and financial means to treat their illness.

 

https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2007/186/10/spirituality-religion-and-health-evidence-and-research-directions

I'm not interested in discussing this with you. We have both been there  done that. You know quite well that I don't agree with your interpretation. I have come to the same conclusions that the majority have. 

Won't or can't I think is the question now maybe? :unsure2:

Which is what my question is about. No. I don't know whom you refer too. WCF is the only poster who I can think might agree with you, but then again his credibility isn't exactly the pinnacle of this board. Are you talking about posters like Illy and Mo? I could understand them agreeing with you if that's who you are referring to. 

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XenoFish
4 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Indeed. Too bad we all know that none of us will win that war. 

Workout, eat well, die anyway.

 

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Liquid Gardens
15 hours ago, Habitat said:

By trying to drum into him, that his ideas are wrong, and your ideas are right.

Is that really the only possible psychological explanation for her behavior?  The answer is of course no, your ability to understand that notwithstanding. You are so terrible at this pointless 'guess the psychological motivation' game, and it's such an obvious attempt at distraction from the points you don't/can't answer.  Your familiarity with that 'scientific rigor' you crow about seems awful limited since you're so bad at applying it to your own 'arguments'.

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Liquid Gardens
10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That may be your position but it s not the  position of most of those here who deny that relgion and spirtuailty can have ANY positive effects because the y are inherently harmful 

That also looks like a strawman; who said that spirituality 'can't' have any positive effects?  Should be an easy quote to provide since 'most' here supposedly deny it.

10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

there are many lifestyle choices  which will (almost certainly)  improve your well being and longevity   A wise person would adopt as many of them as possible and certainly not simply deny the validity of one because it contradicts their world view.

As eight just pointed out, where are the studies that say adopting a religious outlook results in a net benefit for that person if they are not already religiously inclined?

10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Logically we would all be non drinking non smoking vegetarians But there are many personal and social blocks to this happening.

And logical blocks since you presume everyone wants what you want in life.  'Happy' is sometimes in conflict with 'long' and 'healthy'; some prioritize quality before quantity in our years allotted.  'Logically' we'd all not go skiing either, which is an activity I think you've said you at liked to partake in back in the day; people risk injury for some fun on the slopes, 'illogically' apparently, and there are far more efficient and safer ways to gain the health benefits from it.

 

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third_eye

I must say I'm rather sad to say that there are no pacemaker like devices or contraptions for the brain, regardless of what some people are inclined to believe....

~

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XenoFish
15 minutes ago, third_eye said:

I must say I'm rather sad to say that there are no pacemaker like devices or contraptions for the brain, regardless of what some people are inclined to believe....

~

https://singularityhub.com/2009/09/23/implant-that-shocks-brain-to-treat-epilepsy-in-clinical-trials/

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Sherapy
12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I dont understand your question.

Medical scince offers a lot and i make the most of it.

eg i just had a pacemaker installed and I will be having cardiac ablation later this year

However  forms of mental  well being, including faith belief meditation etc are proven to have very powerful positive effects on well being, healing, recovery from illness, reducing pain perception,etc etc.

I would be a fool not to make use of modern medicine but i would also be a fool not to recognise and use the advantage conferred by a strong and disciplined mind and good health practices coming from relgious teachings 

So while the doctors fix my body, my mind contributes to the  healing, the well being the lack of anxiety depression or worry suffered by many patients. It also contributes to   the success of the operations and medical outcomes.  This is all proven medical science.

it is not proselytising to advise people of the medical benefits of faith and religion, or of the harm from tobacco or  alcohol, when those facts are scientifically established   It would be remiss of me, having this knowledge, NOT to inform others.  What the y do then is up to them.  

 

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I dont understand your question.

Medical scince offers a lot and i make the most of it.

eg i just had a pacemaker installed and I will be having cardiac ablation later this year

However  forms of mental  well being, including faith belief meditation etc are proven to have very powerful positive effects on well being, healing, recovery from illness, reducing pain perception,etc etc.

I would be a fool not to make use of modern medicine but i would also be a fool not to recognise and use the advantage conferred by a strong and disciplined mind and good health practices coming from relgious teachings 

So while the doctors fix my body, my mind contributes to the  healing, the well being the lack of anxiety depression or worry suffered by many patients. It also contributes to   the success of the operations and medical outcomes.  This is all proven medical science.

it is not proselytising to advise people of the medical benefits of faith and religion, or of the harm from tobacco or  alcohol, when those facts are scientifically established   It would be remiss of me, having this knowledge, NOT to inform others.  What the y do then is up to them.  

I work with people who either have a chronic a chronic illness or diagnosis’s that are irreversible. Here is my two cents for whatever it is worth. 

Where a mental state is useful is in the  ability to adapt to one’s circumstances, to make peace with the idea that moving forward you will have limitations that dictate what you can and cannot do. Many people feel embarrassed and angry at themselves and long for their old selves, meaning the self that was not sick. Having a strong support system now is imperative, this is where a good caregiver or companion comes in, as they accept you for who you are now as opposed to who you were when you had your health and vitality, a caregiver understands how to apply empathy and compassion in proactive ways. 

They also help your family adjust to you now and encourage you and advocate for you in ways that can help you get the most out of life under your current circumstances. Also what is useful is a support group that is geared toward your condition as you can feel alone and isolated when you don’t connect with others due to the demands of caring for yourself and others, this is what leads to depression. When we don’t have contact with others we think we are the only ones going through our circumstances, what helps about support groups is you see real fast that while things might be seem bleak there is hope, you get ideas from other members and it is geared towards what is happening in your life now, it isn’t about praying away your ills or denying them. Typically, it is at this point youthful starry eyed faith morphs into the ability to face reality and assess what can be done, faith becomes an ability to push through and get back up through the hard times, 

I have been greatly honored to lead support groups, they are fun and they help a lot with morale, comfort and resources. It is a place one can share, grieve, be angry and not be judged for it. one can ask questions and get guidance,  It is a place one can be human and other humans are there for you they understand because they are going through something similar, there is humor which helps too and many men attend, interestingly men do really well ( faster if you are asking me). I do care for a Doctor that is in chronic pain while meditation works in a pinch, it is steroids and pain pills that help her the most, never be afraid to use prescribed drugs as outlined by your doctor for relief. Chronic pain is its own prison, many older people are afraid of getting addicted to pain meds., so they don’t use their pills at all and suffer needlessly. My other patient also is in chronic pain due to Parkinson’s what helps her is her medications too, the rough time is when the dose wears off so we use massage and heating pads for pain relieve till her meds kick in.  So, use the meds.,don’t abuse them is the rule of thumb. 

Here in The US we have a lot of home health resources that many don’t know about perhaps you can look into this and find things that are geared towards your needs. 

I think writing a novel is a wonderful goal for you as it gives meaning and purpose and you are correct as long as you are alive you should preserve your dignity and passion for living. 

If I can be of any assistance feel free to PM me.

All the best to you. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Not ad hominem.

I was making a direct comparison between attitudes to two different  arguments

When people hold such a view they have similarities in their beliefs and logical thinking eg denying tha t correlation  is of concern until causation is proven  This was common among deniers in the early smoking debate and is common among deniers of the  positive effects of spirituality and religion on longevity and health   Correlation is established and this is enough to act upon  (as it was with smoking)  but also causation is being established 

Speaking of ad hominem attacks ?

That may be your position but it s not the  position of most of those here who deny that relgion and spirtuailty can have ANY positive effects because the y are inherently harmful 

I am happy to argue things like costs. In itself belief and spirituality  costs nothing compered to owning a dog or going to gym, and indeed some studies have shown belief and religion to be the cheapest way to achieve similar outcomes

Compared specifically  to other social,activities eg going to church (any church) once a week  gives benefits far greater than going to any other form of social  activity (although these also confer some benefit) 

To me long, healthy and happy are indeed consonant goals and outcomes as the y are, both directly and inversely, related.  One aims for a long healthy and  happy life.  This does not guarantee it for any individual but raises the chances of achieving it. Also it gives social  and economic benefits when taken across populations  There are studies which show the savings  within health systems from the extended healthier and happier lives of a population

the y do give a good argument  for being spiritual or attending church just as jogging, a healthy diet  owning a dog, and other life choices  all contribute to well being 

What gets me is how an intelligent person like you cannot see this 

My point is simple.

there are many lifestyle choices  which will (almost certainly)  improve your well being and longevity   A wise person would adopt as many of them as possible and certainly not simply deny the validity of one because it contradicts their world view. Eg being vegetarian has a tremendous positive  effect on human health as does not drinking or smoking   Logically we would all be non drinking non smoking vegetarians But there are many personal and social blocks to this happening.

  it is one thing to recognise the benefits of vegetarianism and chose not to be one and anther thing to deny that there ARE any benefits  One thing to recognise the dangers pf alcohol and tobacco and  still choose to use them, and another to deny that they cause harm 

 

 

I am thinking that the tithing that is a part of your belief system maybe better served in other ways, from your posts it sounds as if your retirement is not what was expected and all the tithing  and charities you gave to will have to passed to those that have the extra income, you are going to need it. 

I think I read that your wife gives her retirement check to charities,  this should be stopped, IMHO often compromised patients end up giving away all their money to charity, This is a very common problem with “faith” based help.

You would use Validation and Redirection to circumvent this, support groups/ caregivers can help with ideas on how to do this without conflict or impeding on one’s sense of independence and dignity. 

You can get the advice of a Care Manager too. 

 

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Hammerclaw

Flogging_A_Dead_Horse.jpg

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Habitat
6 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Is that really the only possible psychological explanation for her behavior?  The answer is of course no, your ability to understand that notwithstanding. You are so terrible at this pointless 'guess the psychological motivation' game, and it's such an obvious attempt at distraction from the points you don't/can't answer.  Your familiarity with that 'scientific rigor' you crow about seems awful limited since you're so bad at applying it to your own 'arguments'.

You neglected to mention an alternative explanation, but went off into a bitter and twisted rant about me. Address the point  !

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Habitat said:You neglected to mention an alternative explanation, but went off into a bitter and twisted rant about me. Address the point  !

He doesn’t need to offer an alternate explanation for your projections and it isn’t a bitter and twisted rant.

My post was addressed to MW and he had no problem clarifying himself.

You don’t even read member’s posts beyond an opening sentence anyway, this is per your own testimony.

Try and relax.

 

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Habitat
6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

He doesn’t need to offer an alternate explanation for your projections and it isn’t a bitter and twisted rant.

My post was addressed to MW and he had no problem clarifying himself.

You don’t even read member’s posts beyond an opening sentence anyway, this is per your own testimony.

Try and relax.

 

Defending a team member ? I do think he ought to provide an explanation, after all, he is the one saying mine is wrong, but offers no explanation at all. As for what I read or don't read, more guesswork on your part, I did say I don't read through MW's long posts, though. But full marks for coming along to support the team !

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