Universe expansion rate mystery deepens

[zep73]

6 hours ago, SmartAZ said:

If you look at something from two positions it appears to shift by some angle depending an how far away it is and the length of your baseline. If you look from opposite sides of the Earth's orbit, that is the longest baseline we have, and accurate measurements can be made out to about 3200 light years. Beyond that we are guessing. Highly scientific guessing, but guessing all the same. 

I see you have a problem trusting science. You were also the guy recommending self medication.

I can only advice people not to take your claims too serious...

[+Desertrat56]

On 7/19/2019 at 10:42 PM, pallidin said:

Perhaps it should be formally noted that both "dark energy" and "dark matter" are, currently, mathematical constructs ONLY.

There is no actual empirical evidence for the existence of either one, and it is my understanding that there are no currently possible experiments to validate these issues.

So are dark matter and dark energy just used to account for unknown influence or "then something happens here..." to get their end numbers?

[zep73]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

So are dark matter and dark energy just used to account for unknown influence or "then something happens here..." to get their end numbers?

Dark energy is exactly what you just said. But this new doubt about the speed of the expansion, also casts "a little doubt" about the need for an unknown energy.

The influence of dark matter is much more obvious. It must be there! There is no other way.

[SmartAZ]

2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

So are dark matter and dark energy just used to account for unknown influence or "then something happens here..." to get their end numbers?

You can look it up at wikipedia: Dark matter was invented in 1932 by Ian Oort to fudge his data to agree with his theory.

[lightly]

So,   Space is getting less dense as it expands....?  What is "space" ? ...What exactly,  is getting less dence?  How do "they" measure the density of space?

Am I getting more dence as space expands.  .. .?   

[lightly]

If space and time are linked....is time getting less dence as well?  ( that doesn't make sence to me )

...and if space can be distorted...time as well? ...( I think that IS believed and shown ) ?

Edited August 15, 2019 by lightly

[+Desertrat56]

1 hour ago, lightly said:

If space and time are linked....is time getting less dence as well?  ( that doesn't make sence to me )

...and if space can be distorted...time as well? ...( I think that IS believed and shown ) ?

When I was a kid I remember old people saying "time goes faster the older you get" and it seems to.  But I think time is a concept we created to explain how we experience linearly.  Time isn't real, just a concept, but it does need to be considered in certain types of math.

[lightly]

Time.      Time.         When the heck is time?  Is it now?   Was it a second me ago? .

 I'm starting to wonder if energy is all there is....   

[SmartAZ]

On 8/13/2019 at 8:16 AM, sci-nerd said:

I see you have a problem trusting science. You were also the guy recommending self medication.

I can only advice people not to take your claims too serious...

There is science and then there is science. The two resemble each other only slightly. One science is based on measurements and tests, the other is based on commands to believe pronouncements from people who claim to have that authority. That is the definition of religion. I have no problem trusting science. The religion that goes by the same name is teh suxorz.

[Piney]

On 8/15/2019 at 9:46 AM, lightly said:

If space and time are linked....is time getting less dence as well?  ( that doesn't make sence to me )

It's called "spacetime" and gravity is a "dent" in it. 

.....let that stew for a while then PM @Harte    

[Grey Area]

On 8/16/2019 at 2:18 PM, lightly said:

Time.      Time.         When the heck is time?  Is it now?   Was it a second me ago? .

 I'm starting to wonder if energy is all there is....   

It’s easier to visualise time not as the classical flow of time, but instead visualise it as the speed of causality.

If we observe an event in the universe and measure its distance from us we can agree on the amount of time it took for the light to reach us, but we need to understand that the light can be manipulated along the way and so a calculation based solely on the speed of light is not reliable, and so time is inextricably linked to space and it’s geometry.

Thus Einstein introduced space time as a model that described classical 3D space and the 4th time dimension.

Thats a really clunky explanation and does it little justice, but it’s fascinating to look into.

 

[lightly]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

It's called "spacetime" and gravity is a "dent" in it. 

.....let that stew for a while then PM @Harte    

Thanks Piney....yes, I recently heard gravity described as a distortion in space.  I haven't noticed a corresponding dent in time? Harte has been more than generous in explaining    things.

[lightly]

Distortions in space...always make me wonder what space is composed of which would be attracted by Mass/Matter.  ?

 

[Harte]

Space and time are two aspects of the same thing, so a dent in space is actually also a dent in tim, which is why a gravity well slows time down.

Harte

[SmartAZ]

Re "spacetime":

If space is distorted by gravity, what is the force that returns it when gravity has moved away?

If time is variable, what is the time by which the variation is measured? IOW if time is variable then time must exist in at least two dimensions.

[Harte]

Space time isn't actually distorted by gravity - it's distorted by mass. Gravity is our observation of the distortion.

In the absence of mass there is no distortion. It would imply that space time, as observed, is elastic, so to speak.

The distortion of space time IS the distortion of time, and isn't time-dependent so it's distortion isn't measured by time but rather by mass.

However,modern String Theory DOES include a second time dimension. But, it's just a theory.

Harte

[lightly]

All of which still makes me wonder what space/time is composed of which would be   distorted or pulled on  by mass.?

And..if the greater the mass the more time is slowed within any particular gravity well... Does a watch run faster on the moon, being less massive than on the earth?  (or is it's area within the earth's gravity well?)

How about Jupiter ? ,being more massive than the earth, would a watch run slower?  

[Harte]

Yes. The phenomenon must be adjusted for with GPS systems because time runs faster in orbit than on the surface of the Earth and GPS is a satellite system.

Harte

[SmartAZ]

23 hours ago, Harte said:

Space time isn't actually distorted by gravity - it's distorted by mass. Gravity is our observation of the distortion.

In the absence of mass there is no distortion. It would imply that space time, as observed, is elastic, so to speak.

The distortion of space time IS the distortion of time, and isn't time-dependent so it's distortion isn't measured by time but rather by mass.

However,modern String Theory DOES include a second time dimension. But, it's just a theory.

Harte

You have not answered the questions. If space is distorted, there is a restoring force. that force is not being investigated. And if time is distorted there is a speed of the effect, and that requires time to exist in at least two dimensions. The point of both questions is that no such effect has ever been observed. The first step in the scientific method is "Observe something," so they are not science; they are fiction.

[SmartAZ]

16 hours ago, Harte said:

Yes. The phenomenon must be adjusted for with GPS systems because time runs faster in orbit than on the surface of the Earth and GPS is a satellite system.

Harte

The committee that developed the system did the calculations using relativity methods, and then with Newtonian methods. They got exactly the same results, but decided it was not politically expedient to announce that at that time.

https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/11/29/common-misconception-9-who-disproved-einstein/

[Harte]

21 minutes ago, SmartAZ said:

You have not answered the questions. If space is distorted, there is a restoring force. that force is not being investigated. And if time is distorted there is a speed of the effect, and that requires time to exist in at least two dimensions. The point of both questions is that no such effect has ever been observed. The first step in the scientific method is "Observe something," so they are not science; they are fiction.

Sorry, both effects have been observed several hundred times. The time distortion is in constant observation and has been for over a decade.

Whether General Relativity is the actual answer as to why is not known. What IS known is that General Relativity predicted both effects long before they were observed and GR's predictions match precisely those observations to the limits of our means to observe them.

Harte

[+joc]

On 8/12/2019 at 12:21 PM, sci-nerd said:

Some people imagine the universe as a thing they look at from the outside. But there is no outside, because the universe is everything.
So if we look at it the right way, from the inside, things are getting further and further apart, at a higher and higher speed.
And it is that "higher and higher speed" that this thread is about. Where does that speed come from??

From my layman's view...

Consider smoke from a fire.  The smoke is billowing upward and away from the fire.  As the heat diminishes so does the speed of the smoke.

In this rudimentary...off the top of my head...explanation:  The atmosphere is 'the dark matter'.  The smoke particles are 'matter'.  The fire is 'the big bang'.

The  smoke rises because heat from the fire creates its own wind.  As the heat diminishes...so does the wind.  If expansion began via the big bang...it makes sense to me that there would be differences in the measurements of speed at which that occurs...depending on what one is measuring, distant galaxies vs closer galaxies, etc.

So:

Perhaps a 'higher speed' is not a higher speed at all...it is the same speed....it's just when the traffic begins to slow down it seems like everyone is driving much faster than they actually are.

 

[+joc]

On 8/12/2019 at 12:38 PM, sci-nerd said:

That someone would be a part of the universe, and by stepping forward, be part of the expansion of 'everything'.

Our minds are not built to comprehend this stuff, so we invent concepts like 'nothing' or 'emptiness', but there isn't even emptiness beyond our universe.

I call the place "does not exist".

As a matter of fact...as we discovered on the train...tomorrow never happens man...it's all the same 'freaking' day man!

[lightly]

The Big Bang...if there was one, was nothing like an explosion ,in which the force dissipates with distance.

the expansion occurs equally ..everywhere.   The reason the farthest galaxies (and stuff) are moving away at faster rates than the nearer galaxies (and stuff) is that the space everywhere in between is expanding...so it is a cumulative effect.    ???

 

[SmartAZ]

19 hours ago, Harte said:

Sorry, both effects have been observed several hundred times. The time distortion is in constant observation and has been for over a decade.

Whether General Relativity is the actual answer as to why is not known. What IS known is that General Relativity predicted both effects long before they were observed and GR's predictions match precisely those observations to the limits of our means to observe them.

Harte

Sorry yourself. Science is loaded with effects that were observed several hundred times and then turned out to have been observed only because people wanted so badly to observe them. Nessie, UFOs, evolution, winds and shockwaves in space, magnetic reconnection, and on and on. Math is only valid when it describes reality, so computer simulations don't count. Most of what we call science is nothing more than refusal to admit "We don't know."