Plato´s Atlantis was in a River Delta

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

5 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Okay you're just rehashing stuff we already know. Why won't you talk about the Panathenaia festival and how it ties in the story of Atlantis to Athens way before Plato?

See, now that is interesting. I can see how over the centuries the origin of the festival got lost beyond “Poseidon versus Athena” (whereas originally it was the children of Poseidon (aka the Atlantians) versus the children of Athena (the Athenians)).

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

4 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Go work on your geometry lessons.

School holidays my good man. I’m not even looking at a lesson plan for a week.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

Seems to me that you are the one that doesn't jive, when it comes to Plato on Atlantis.

Seems to me your not a thorough reader. Having a contest between 2 gods over who is to  be protector of a city and 2 cities going to war are not the same. When comparing the meaning of the games, No matter their rivalry.

[Piney]

3 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

I would never dare proclaim that I'm a better academic than you, Piney, as then I would be admitting to being a better fool.

You can't admit to being a academic at all. Just a racist liar making things up.....wait?????

[+Pettytalk]

1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

School holidays my good man. I’m not even looking at a lesson plan for a week.

Well then you should assess the situation well before the childish comments towards me.

Somebody has claimed that Plato put it writing that he made up the story of Atlantis. It was asked to cite where Plato did that. In response to that, I cited exactly where Plato said otherwise, if we are to stick to Plato's writing, and not to Plato's commentators. And I also pointed out that, logically, if Plato had written anywhere that he made up the story, there would not be anyone looking for Atlantis, at least no one that is able to read.

Have I explained myself?

Edited September 21, 2019 by Pettytalk

[+Pettytalk]

14 minutes ago, Piney said:

You can't admit to being a academic at all. Just a racist liar making things up.....wait?????

I think it's best for me to going back to not responding to anything you have to say to me.

Good luck and best wishes!

[Orphalesion]

4 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Not that it really matters to me, but you seem to be ignorant of the origin of the Greek gods. And Plato himself is telling you, in the Timaeus, that the Egyptian goddess Neith is the same as Athena. Check out Herodotus' History, and apart from Poseidon, many Greek deities seem to have been Egyptian, only with a different name, and most likely imported from Egypt, just as the story of Atlantis was made to have been imported from there too.

He replied:–In the Egyptian Delta, at the head of which the river Nile divides, there is a certain district which is called the district of Sais, and the great city of the district is also called Sais, and is the city from which King Amasis came.The citizens have a deity for their foundress; she is called in the Egyptian tongue Neith, and is asserted by them to be the same whom the Hellenes call Athene;...

Yeah and the Norse Gods were really the Roman ones under a different name because Tacticus said that the Germanic tribes worship Mercury as their chief god.
The ancient cultures that were in close contact frequently associated their different gods whit each other and interpreted foregn ones as incarnations of theirs.

So this doesn't "proof" that the Greek gods arose from the Egyptian ones. If anything it might make a case that at some point some Egyptian said to some Greek "Hey you know our Goddess Neith is pretty much like your Athena."
Most of the Greek gods arose from the Mynoan ones, except for Aphrodite who evolved from Ishtar and, possibly, Hades who isn't found in the surviving Linear B texts.

Very interesting stuff, the Pre-Greek pantheon. Poseidon was the top god and had chitonic association rather than marine ones, Hermes was an aspect of Pan who later became his own god, Medusa and Artemis might have arisen from the same goddess, Ariadne had an extensive cult etc. etc.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Orphalesion

[Piney]

17 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Very interesting stuff, the Pre-Greek pantheon. Poseidon was the top god and had chitonic association rather than marine ones, Hermes was an aspect of Pan who later became his own god, Medusa and Artemis might have arisen from the same goddess, Ariadne had an extensive cult etc. etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology

I took this course.

https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~rnoyer/courses/51/PIEDivinities.pdf

Then look into Minoan and Libyan deities. Adonis, Athena, etc. 

[Essan]

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

Well then you should assess the situation well before the childish comments towards me.

Somebody has claimed that Plato put it writing that he made up the story of Atlantis. It was asked to cite where Plato did that. In response to that, I cited exactly where Plato said otherwise, if we are to stick to Plato's writing, and not to Plato's commentators. And I also pointed out that, logically, if Plato had written anywhere that he made up the story, there would not be anyone looking for Atlantis, at least no one that is able to read.

Have I explained myself?

Is there anywhere in any of the Harry Potter books where JK Rowling admits to having made it all up? 

[Orphalesion]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology

I took this course.

https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~rnoyer/courses/51/PIEDivinities.pdf

Then look into Minoan and Libyan deities. Adonis, Athena, etc. 

Yeah I've been reading lately into those origins. I was so surprised to learn that Dionysus was a native Minoan god, the old books I inherited from my grandfather still supported the theory that he was an import from Asia.  And Pan might have a Vedic counterpart in Pushan, who retained the aspects that split of into Hermes.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Orphalesion said:

Yeah I've been reading lately into those origins. I was so surprised to learn that Dionysus was a native Minoan god, the old books I inherited from my grandfather still supported the theory that he was an import from Asia.  And Pan might have a Vedic counterpart in Pushan, who retained the aspects that split of into Hermes.

I always though Dionysus was actually Thracian, who were a branch of the Balkan folks and close cousins to the Greeks until I read the Minoan idea. 

I'm working on something right now but I'll PM you a few books which are really good written by a friend of mine.

 

[Orphalesion]

13 minutes ago, Piney said:

I always though Dionysus was actually Thracian, who were a branch of the Balkan folks and close cousins to the Greeks until I read the Minoan idea. 

I'm working on something right now but I'll PM you a few books which are really good written by a friend of mine.

 

That would be awesome! Thanks for that :-)

[atalante]

11 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Okay you're just rehashing stuff we already know. Why won't you talk about the Panathenaia festival and how it ties in the story of Atlantis to Athens way before Plato?

Timaeus 22d,e alludes to a relevant story about "Poseidon Erechtheus" (which Bury's translation for 22e emphasizes in a footnote).  

In 22d,e, an Egyptian priest says that the Athenian people are descended from Erechtheus and the Egyptian god Ptah/Hephaestus, with a connecting role played by Athena/Neith.  Greek legends about this "Poseidon Erechtheus" story were very entangled.  But the Greeks built the Erechtheion ca 420 BC, to celebrate Greece's entangled web of Erechtheus legends.  https://www.visit-ancient-greece.com/erechtheion.html

Edited September 21, 2019 by atalante

[Trelane]

So we're still not looking for hard evidence. Just mushing around conjecture, with no interest in the lack of any artifacts? Wonderful.

[ThereWeAreThen]

58 minutes ago, Trelane said:

So we're still not looking for hard evidence. Just mushing around conjecture, with no interest in the lack of any artifacts? Wonderful.

Its seems to happen on the vast majority of claims on this site.

[cormac mac airt]

10 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

If mac posted it, it is a fabrication, as Plato said no such thing. In fact he said that it was a true story, although strange.

Then you are a complete and total moron, and a liar as well: 

From Timaeus: 

Quote

I have told you briefly, Socrates, what the aged Critias heard

from Solon and related to us. And when you were speaking yesterday

about your city and citizens, the tale which I have just been

repeating to you came into my mind, and I remarked with astonishment

how, by some mysterious coincidence, you agreed in almost every

particular with the narrative of Solon; but I did not like to speak at

the moment. For a long time had elapsed, and I had forgotten too much;

I thought that I must first of all run over the narrative in my own

mind, and then I would speak. And so I readily assented to your

request yesterday, considering that in all such cases the chief

difficulty is to find a tale suitable to our purpose, and that with

such a tale we should be fairly well provided.

And therefore, as Hermocrates has told you, on my way home yesterday

I at once communicated the tale to my companions as I remembered it;

and after I left them, during the night by thinking I recovered nearly

the whole it. Truly, as is often said, the lessons of our childhood

make wonderful impression on our memories; for I am not sure that I

could remember all the discourse of yesterday, but I should be much

surprised if I forgot any of these things which I have heard very long

ago. I listened at the time with childlike interest to the old mans

narrative; he was very ready to teach me, and I asked him again and

again to repeat his words, so that like an indelible picture they were

branded into my mind. As soon as the day broke, I rehearsed them as he

spoke them to my companions, that they, as well as myself, might

have something to say. And now, Socrates, to make an end my preface, I

am ready to tell you the whole tale. I will give you not only the

general heads, but the particulars, as they were told to me. The

city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction,

we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the

ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you

imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they

will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying

that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. Let us

divide the subject among us, and all endeavour according to our

ability gracefully to execute the task which you have imposed upon us.

Plato's Critias claims that Socrates' previous days story, which Critias calls fiction, agrees "in almost every particular with the narrative of Solon", thus equating Solon's tale with a work of fiction. A "true fiction" as it were, which is a contradiction of terms if ever there was one. That you're apparently not competent enough to understand this shows your irrelevancy to the discussion. 

cormac

 

Edited September 21, 2019 by cormac mac airt

[+Pettytalk]

6 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

17 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

If mac posted it, it is a fabrication, as Plato said no such thing. In fact he said that it was a true story, although strange.

Then you are a complete and total moron, and a liar as well: 

From Timaeus: 

Quote

I have told you briefly, Socrates, what the aged Critias heard

from Solon and related to us. And when you, Socrates, were speaking yesterday

about your city and citizens, as written in the Republic, the tale (Solon's tale) which I have just been

repeating to you came into my mind, and I remarked with astonishment

how, by some mysterious coincidence, your guardians of the Republic agreed in almost every

particular with the narrative of Solon; but I did not like to speak at

the moment. For a long time had elapsed, and I had forgotten too much;

I thought that I must first of all run over the narrative in my own

mind, and then I would speak. And so I readily assented to your

request yesterday, considering that in all such cases the chief

difficulty is to find a tale suitable to our purpose, and that with

such a tale we should be fairly well provided.

And therefore, as Hermocrates has told you, on my way home yesterday

I at once communicated the tale to my companions as I remembered it;

and after I left them, during the night by thinking I recovered nearly

the whole it. Truly, as is often said, the lessons of our childhood

make wonderful impression on our memories; for I am not sure that I

could remember all the discourse of yesterday, but I should be much

surprised if I forgot any of these things which I have heard very long

ago. I listened at the time with childlike interest to the old mans

narrative; he was very ready to teach me, and I asked him again and

again to repeat his words, so that like an indelible picture they were

branded into my mind. As soon as the day broke, I rehearsed them as he

spoke them to my companions, that they, as well as myself, might

have something to say. And now, Socrates, to make an end my preface, I

am ready to tell you the whole tale. I will give you not only the

general heads, but the particulars, as they were told to me. The

city and citizens of the Republic, which you, Socrates, yesterday described to us in fiction,

we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the

ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you, Socrates,

imagined (described in the Republic), were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they

will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying

that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. Let us

divide the subject among us, and all endeavour according to our

ability gracefully to execute the task which you have imposed upon us.

 

Consider then, Socrates, if this narrative is suited to the purpose, or
whether we should seek for some other instead.
SOCRATES: And what other, Critias, can we find that will be better than
this, which is natural and suitable to the festival of the goddess, and has the
very great advantage of being a fact and not a fiction? How or where shall we
find another if we abandon this? We cannot, and therefore you must tell the
tale, and good luck to you;

Plato's Critias claims that Socrates' previous days story, which Critias calls fiction, agrees "in almost every particular with the narrative of Solon", thus equating Solon's tale with a work of fiction. A "true fiction" as it were, which is a contradiction of terms if ever there was one. That you're apparently not competent enough to understand this shows your irrelevancy to the discussion. 

cormac

I wasn't certain that I should respond to this. At first I thought it as being better to leave you in your ignorance of not understanding Plato's English translation passage, especially after those opening compliments you gave me. And it also seems useless for me to return those compliments in kind, and with interest too, because it would not make you less ignorant, but only more irate.

And since I don't see any of your friends coming forth to tell you can't read, I may as well be a friend to you, and tell you myself. Although this is not the first time that I had to point out you lack of understanding.

Regardless of whether or not the story of Atlantis is truly fiction, but as far as what Plato wrote, there is nothing in writing where he said it was a fiction. What you have managed to do is to fabricate, in your mind, the idea that Plato has written that it was a fiction. And you did this by choosing to see only some of the words, which were highlighted in bold by you in the quoted passage by Plato. And you even managed to disregard what immediately followed, by not making it part of the quote. Perhaps you are intentionally picking black cherries, or perhaps you are not, which would mean that you are really deficient in understanding what is written by Plato, as translated.

I have taken the liberty to do some colorful highlighting myself. What is in red is text I have inserted, and have also added what follows it. I did it hoping that you may see better in color. But I doubt very much if you will let go of your ignorance, especially since you have to admit that you are dead wrong. And keep in mind that one is never too old to learn, but first you must be purged of what you think you know.

I wish you eternal peace, friend!

[Trelane]

Recycled garbage as posts with nothing new added in months? Thread closed in 3...2...1...

[atalante]

21 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

 

Regardless of whether or not the story of Atlantis is truly fiction, but as far as what Plato wrote, there is nothing in writing where he said it was a fiction. What you have managed to do is to fabricate, in your mind, the idea that Plato has written that it was a fiction. And you did this by choosing to see only some of the words, which were highlighted in bold by you in the quoted passage by Plato. And you even managed to disregard what immediately followed, by not making it part of the quote. Perhaps you are intentionally picking black cherries, or perhaps you are not, which would mean that you are really deficient in understanding what is written by Plato, as translated.

I have taken the liberty to do some colorful highlighting myself. What is in red is text I have inserted, and have also added what follows it. I did it hoping that you may see better in color. 

The passage is 25d to 26c in the Bury translation, which reaches a similar conclusion.

[26c] ...the fact that it is no invented fable but genuine history 

[Swede]

21 minutes ago, atalante said:

The passage is 25d to 26c in the Bury translation, which reaches a similar conclusion.

[26c] ...the fact that it is no invented fable but genuine history 

Bury's translation was published in 1929. His comments reflect his personal beliefs based upon cultural "speculations " of the time period.

.

[jaylemurph]

On 9/21/2019 at 2:39 AM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

See, now that is interesting. I can see how over the centuries the origin of the festival got lost beyond “Poseidon versus Athena” (whereas originally it was the children of Poseidon (aka the Atlantians) versus the children of Athena (the Athenians)).

The Romans had several forgotten gods (mostly from before they syncretized their pantheon with the Greeks) — they had paid priests and temples, but forgot collectively who the deity was and what s/he did. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Polar]

 

 

Quote

East Greenland Orogen

The East Greenland orogen, also known as East Greenland mountain range, is the linear mountain range along the eastern Greenland coast, from 70 to 82 degrees north latitude.

Geologically, the mountain chain consists of Silurian to early Devonian (490 to 390 millions years ago) fold and thrust belts. The rocks of the East Greenland orogen are mostly Cryogenian to Silurian sedimentary rocks overlying a basement of mainly Proterozoic gneisses.

The current mountain range formed as a result of Cenozoic uplift following the opening of the Atlantic Ocean in the early Eocene (about 55 million years ago).^[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Greenland_Orogen

 

Quote

Geology of the Iberian Peninsula

The geology of the Iberian Peninsula consists of the study of the rock formations on the Iberian Peninsula, which includes Spain, Portugal, Andorra, and Gibraltar. The peninsula contains rocks from every geological period from the Ediacaran to the Holocene, and many types of rock are represented. World-class mineral deposits are also found there.

The core of the Iberian Peninsula consists of a Hercynian cratonic block known as the Iberian Massif. On the northeast this is bounded by The Pyrenean fold belt, and on the southeast it is bounded by the Betic Foldchain. These twofold chains are part of the Alpine belt. To the west, the peninsula is delimited by the continental boundary formed by the opening of the Atlantic Ocean. The Hercynian Foldbelt is mostly buried by Mesozoic and Cenozoic cover rocks to the east, but nevertheless outcrops through the Iberian Chain and the Catalan Coastal Ranges.^[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula

 

Quote

Atlas Mountains

The basement rock of most of Africa was formed during the Precambrian supereon and is much older than the Atlas Mountains lying on the continent. The Atlas was formed during three subsequent phases of Earth's geology.

The first tectonic deformation phase involves only the Anti-Atlas, which was formed in the Paleozoic Era (~300 million years ago) as the result of continental collisions. North America, Europe and Africa were connected millions of years ago.

The Anti-Atlas Mountains are believed to have originally been formed as part of Alleghenian orogeny. These mountains were formed when Africa and America collided, and were once a chain rivaling today's Himalayas. Today, the remains of this chain can be seen in the Fall Line region in the Eastern United States. Some remnants can also be found in the later formed Appalachians in North America.

A second phase took place during the Mesozoic Era (before ~66 My). It consisted of a widespread extension of the Earth's crust that rifted and separated the continents mentioned above. This extension was responsible for the formation of many thick intracontinental sedimentary basins including the present Atlas. Most of the rocks forming the surface of the present High Atlas were deposited under the ocean at that time.

Finally, in the Paleogene and Neogene Periods (~66 million to ~1.8 million years ago), the mountain chains that today constitute the Atlas were uplifted, as the land masses of Europe and Africa collided at the southern end of the Iberian Peninsula. Such convergent tectonic boundaries occur where two plates slide towards each other forming a subduction zone (if one plate moves underneath the other), and/or a continental collision (when the two plates contain continental crust). In the case of the Africa-Europe collision, it is clear that tectonic convergence is partially responsible for the formation of the High Atlas, as well as for the closure of the Strait of Gibraltar and the formation of the Alps and the Pyrenees. However, there is a lack of evidence for the nature of the subduction in the Atlas region, or for the thickening of the Earth's crust generally associated with continental collisions. In fact, one of the most striking features of the Atlas to geologists is the relative small amount of crustal thickening and tectonic shortening despite the important altitude of the mountain range. Recent studies suggest that deep processes rooted in the Earth's mantle may have contributed to the uplift of the High and Middle Atlas.^[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Mountains

Edited September 22, 2019 by Polar

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, Polar said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Greenland_Orogen

and a city somehow existed when mammals first began to radiate?

6 minutes ago, Polar said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Mountains

and this is when it happened

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleghanian_orogeny

and we don't see too many mammals running around

https://en.wikipedia./wiki/Carboniferous

[Swede]

23 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

I wasn't certain that I should respond to this. At first I thought it as being better to leave you in your ignorance of not understanding Plato's English translation passage, especially after those opening compliments you gave me. And it also seems useless for me to return those compliments in kind, and with interest too, because it would not make you less ignorant, but only more irate.

And since I don't see any of your friends coming forth to tell you can't read, I may as well be a friend to you, and tell you myself. Although this is not the first time that I had to point out you lack of understanding.

Regardless of whether or not the story of Atlantis is truly fiction, but as far as what Plato wrote, there is nothing in writing where he said it was a fiction. What you have managed to do is to fabricate, in your mind, the idea that Plato has written that it was a fiction. And you did this by choosing to see only some of the words, which were highlighted in bold by you in the quoted passage by Plato. And you even managed to disregard what immediately followed, by not making it part of the quote. Perhaps you are intentionally picking black cherries, or perhaps you are not, which would mean that you are really deficient in understanding what is written by Plato, as translated.

I have taken the liberty to do some colorful highlighting myself. What is in red is text I have inserted, and have also added what follows it. I did it hoping that you may see better in color. But I doubt very much if you will let go of your ignorance, especially since you have to admit that you are dead wrong. And keep in mind that one is never too old to learn, but first you must be purged of what you think you know.

I wish you eternal peace, friend!

• Your inability to grasp the intent of the dialogues is truly puzzling, particularly for one who professes such "deep insight".
• Your attempts to infuse your personal interpretations (including deliberate alterations) are hardly convincing.

However, of greater significance: Your entire premise is based upon the concept that Plato was a "Christian Prophet" well before the referenced belief system was even established.

Kindly present your empirical evidence that: 1) Plato ever considered himself to be a "prophet"; 2) That Plato was somehow engaged in early Judaeo-Christian belief systems.

.

 

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

36 minutes ago, Polar said:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Greenland_Orogen

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Mountains