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Polar

Plato´s Atlantis was in a River Delta

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Piney
3 hours ago, Trelane said:

Still my favorite part of that tale. From the travels through the Old Forest to the end with the Barrow Wights, pure magic.

And they didn't put it into the movies.:angry:

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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, Piney said:

And they didn't put it into the movies.:angry:

Because “everyone knows Tom Bombadil is silly nonsense”.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

God I hope they don’t mess up the 2020 Dune film, especially as it comes with a prepainted “red flag” for those who don’t understand the story and the message behind the story (that being Paul is white, the Fremen are not, and to all surface intreptstions Paul is a “mighty ******” who saves the Fremen) and who want to virtue signal. 

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Sir Wearer of Hats

That said, we live in an age where the message of “blindly following anyone or anything is A Very Bad Thing” is needed, and that is in Frank Heebert’s own words the point of the Dune Cycle.

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Piney
3 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

God I hope they don’t mess up the 2020 Dune film, especially as it comes with a prepainted “red flag” for those who don’t understand the story and the message behind the story (that being Paul is white, the Fremen are not, and to all surface intreptstions Paul is a “mighty ******” who saves the Fremen) and who want to virtue signal. 

There is no longer a racial distinction that far in the future even though there is hints of ancestry ( i.e.Duncan Idaho- Native American). Sheena was described as brown haired with sun blond streaks. 

11 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Because “everyone knows Tom Bombadil is silly nonsense”.

:angry: 

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Polar
On 7/19/2019 at 6:42 AM, Pettytalk said:

OK Polar, I'm game, although one should never start anew when the former has not yet been completed.

But you seem not to understand the picture Plato drew, yourself. Here is Jowett (italics) on the Critias, and the width and depth of the main canal cut from the sea to inland, and of the many cross-crossing canals. Also take note of the references for the vessel sizes, in relation to the width allowances, to the specified areas.

And beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided at the bridges the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another, and they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water........

Further inland, likewise, straight canals of a hundred feet in width were cut from it through the plain, and again let off into the ditch leading to the sea: these canals were at intervals of a hundred stadia, and by them they brought down the wood from the mountains to the city, and conveyed the fruits of the earth in ships, cutting transverse passages from one canal into another, and to the city.......

There is no mention of any canal being a stadia wide (185 meters), as the main and widest canal is 300 feet, with a depth of 100 feet. And the many others are said to be 100 feet wide, but their depths are not mentioned. Although further descriptions tell us that they had to be deep enough to allow vessels to sail in them for commerce, since the waterways were used for transport of goods. The one stadia width is for the circular/winding ditch, which is really indicating an existent river, and where some man-made manipulations were performed. The other body of water that is said to be a stadia in width, is the smaller of the two circular strips.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_units_of_measurement

 

Dear Pettytalk,

I firstly apologize for the other thread, there was no point in continuing, too much noise... 

I guess you are correct... i have to confess that i did not notice that Ulf's canal (width = 185 m) information was incorrect, but nevertheless, the dimensions (width = 93 m , length = 2620 m) would have still been an almost impossible task:

 

Quote

 

In ancient China, large canals for river transport were established as far back as the Spring and Autumn Period (8th–5th centuries BC), the longest one of that period being the Hong Gou (Canal of the Wild Geese), which according to the ancient historian Sima Qian connected the old states of Song, Zhang, Chen, Cai, Cao, and Wei.[6] The Caoyun System of canals was essential for imperial taxation, which was largely assessed in kind and involved enormous shipments of rice and other grains. By far the longest canal was the Grand Canal of China, still the longest canal in the world today and the oldest extant one.[7] It is 1,794 kilometres (1,115 mi) long and was built to carry the Emperor Yang Guang between Zhuodu (Beijing) and Yuhang (Hangzhou). The project began in 605 and was completed in 609, although much of the work combined older canals, the oldest section of the canal existing since at least 486 BC. Even in its narrowest urban sections it is rarely less than 30 metres (98 ft) wide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal

I find it a very important error, but nonetheless, the remaining dimensions are very similar to nowadays reality. And furthermore, i have confronted many of the larger constructions in Plato's Critias and found a close match. Although that is not a proof of anything, i had to think that his "conversion" made all the sense.

Thank you for pointing out this error, i appreciated.

 

 

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Pettytalk
7 minutes ago, Polar said:

I firstly apologize for the other thread, there was no point in continuing, too much noise... 

What makes you deaf to the noise already raised on this one, too?

Why it's so noisy that all that din and clatter goes on both day and night, like the noise heard in the Capital, which comes from the Baltimore harbors, especially the clatter of metal from the outer one, a port for container ships, coming from all parts of the world.

Plato's Critias. An excerpt.

Leaving the palace and passing out across the three harbours, you came to a wall which began at the sea and went all round: this was everywhere distant fifty stadia from the largest zone or harbour, and enclosed the whole, the ends meeting at the mouth of the channel which led to the sea. The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_megalopolis

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Polar
On 7/20/2019 at 7:02 AM, Pettytalk said:

image.png.34ac5225a39bf3a01130ee6ed0230df4.png

All we need is two goal posts at each end, and we can start a game of college American football. Looks more like a football stadium, where the mountains represent the stands. Where are the hash marks? However, I think Ulf, God rest his soul, had too vivid a imagination. Perhaps a little 90 degree turn would put it in the correct perspective for the Big 10 of Atlantis.

Critias dialogue excerpt, Jowett's translation.

Nevertheless I must say what I was told. It was excavated to the depth of a hundred feet, and its breadth was a stadium everywhere; it was carried round the whole of the plain, and was ten thousand stadia in length. It received the streams which came down from the mountains, and winding round the plain and meeting at the city, was there let off into the sea.Further inland, likewise, straight canals of a hundred feet in width were cut from it through the plain, and again let off into the ditch leading to the sea: these canals were at intervals of a hundred stadia, and by them they brought down the wood from the mountains to the city, and conveyed the fruits of the earth in ships, cutting transverse passages from one canal into another, and to the city. Twice in the year they gathered the fruits of the earth—in winter having the benefit of the rains of heaven, and in summer the water which the land supplied by introducing streams from the canals.

Definition of transverse

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1 : acting, lying, or being across : set crosswise
2 : made at right angles to the long axis of the body
 
Transverse direction. Literally, "across," usually signifying a direction or plane perpendicular to the direction of working.
 
Additionally, the diagonal straight lines meeting at the city, are nowhere remotely indicative of something that is round, and winding round the plain.
 
 

 

 

I think that, according to Plato, the streams winding round the plain from the mountains, really mean a sort of sinuous course that discharged in the plain's ditch and after passing through the city, were, likewise, "let off" into the sea. From the ditch on, there was actually a man made system of canals (straight lines), crosscutting through each other in a intricate pattern pretty much like roads do.

721hookerandpleasure.png

 

 

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Trelane
On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 5:13 PM, Polar said:

Hello,

I decided to start yet another thread on Atlantis...

Take it away Michael....

 

8367d0bd0fbee3c88aff77e87507227e.jpg

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Pettytalk
2 hours ago, Polar said:

I think that, according to Plato, the streams winding round the plain from the mountains, really mean a sort of sinuous course that discharged in the plain's ditch and after passing through the city, were, likewise, "let off" into the sea. From the ditch on, there was actually a man made system of canals (straight lines), crosscutting through each other in a intricate pattern pretty much like roads do.

721hookerandpleasure.png

Ulf got it all wrong. Nothing on Ulf's figure, showing the plain and the mountains, is even remotely close to the picture Plato drew with words.

And are you trying to "Badger" me with that street map?

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Kenemet
4 hours ago, Polar said:

 

I firstly apologize for the other thread, there was no point in continuing, too much noise... 

I guess you are correct... i have to confess that i did not notice that Ulf's canal (width = 185 m) information was incorrect, but nevertheless, the dimensions (width = 93 m , length = 2620 m) would have still been an almost impossible task:

Surely the original said "stadia" and not "meters" (which didn't exist as a measurement until 1790) and the "foot" was only standardized around 1300 AD (in the reign of Henry I.)  

So if discussing measures, it would be more logical to see what the original said (I *think* the only surviving ancient copies are in Latin, so "stadia" would not be a correct measurement.)  Perhaps someone could look up the oldest translations source and report back on it.

And that said, they actually hadn't standardized measurements back then; each builder could have had different lengths for each measurement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_units_of_measurement

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Jodie.Lynne
Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2019 at 6:13 PM, Polar said:

The reported depth of the canals shows that Plato´s “stades” must be translated as Egyptian length units “Khet”

Why "must" it be converted to another unit of measurement?

I am not a Greek historian  (not in the sense of a historian who is Greek, but rather a researcher of Greek history. Just being clear), but surely the 'stade' is a known measurement? 

That's like saying that before we can know how long a metre is, we have to convert the number to 'X' number of Klingon Kallicams.

Edited by Jodie.Lynne
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XenoFish

Another Atlantis thread...doesn't this topic get old? 

(looks into another section of forum, sees bigfoot threads, nope I guess not)

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Jodie.Lynne
10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Another Atlantis thread...doesn't this topic get old? 

(looks into another section of forum, sees bigfoot threads, nope I guess not)

We should combine the two.

 

"Bigfoot are the degenerated descendants of Atlantis"

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Kenemet
Just now, Jodie.Lynne said:

We should combine the two.

 

"Bigfoot are the degenerated descendants of Atlantis"

Shhhh!  Someone's gonna hear you!!  It'll be all over Reddit in a few minutes and then G.H.'s board, and then... and THEN.....

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Jodie.Lynne
1 minute ago, Kenemet said:

Shhhh!  Someone's gonna hear you!!  It'll be all over Reddit in a few minutes and then G.H.'s board, and then... and THEN.....

Now how do I work "ancient aliens" and psionics into this theory?

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XenoFish
16 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Now how do I work "ancient aliens" and psionics into this theory?

Bigfoot are a psychic ancient alien species that created Atlantis back when the earth was flat. Due to some infighting, the resulting psychic blast made the earth a sphere and the entire bigfoot species is now dimensionally out of sync entity. True story.

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Trelane
18 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Bigfoot are a psychic ancient alien species that created Atlantis back when the earth was flat. Due to some infighting, the resulting psychic blast made the earth a sphere and the entire bigfoot species is now dimensionally out of sync entity. True story.

Ahem, point of order good sir...what about Nessie?!?!?!? Your statement fails to account for the dozens of lake monsters and their reptilian masters who have mastered time travel from our hollow earth to their hollow moon spaceship that man never landed on. ;)

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atalante
8 hours ago, Polar said:

 

Dear Pettytalk,

I firstly apologize for the other thread, there was no point in continuing, too much noise... 

I guess you are correct... i have to confess that i did not notice that Ulf's canal (width = 185 m) information was incorrect, but nevertheless, the dimensions (width = 93 m , length = 2620 m) would have still been an almost impossible task:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal

I find it a very important error, but nonetheless, the remaining dimensions are very similar to nowadays reality. And furthermore, i have confronted many of the larger constructions in Plato's Critias and found a close match. Although that is not a proof of anything, i had to think that his "conversion" made all the sense.

Thank you for pointing out this error, i appreciated.

 

 

Polar, 
I presume Ulf intended to use the data from "one line higher in Table 2 of his article".
i.e. the line for a canal that Plato declared to be 0.5 stades wide (three plethra wide).
 
This line-shifting error produces the same effect that Pettytalk has reported.

Canal from Outer Water Ring to the Sea,
Width 0,5   stade    93   meters @185m/stade
Depth 0,17 stade   30,8 meters @185m/stade 
 
 
 
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Sir Wearer of Hats
22 hours ago, Piney said:

There is no longer a racial distinction that far in the future even though there is hints of ancestry ( i.e.Duncan Idaho- Native American). Sheena was described as brown haired with sun blond streaks. 

:angry: 

That’s the “in universe” bit, yes. But you just KNOW that someone is going to virtue signal by slagging the film off by using the phrase “the mighty white” or something similar. There’ll be calls for boycotts. There’ll be Change.orgs set up to demand it be refilmed with a “less offensive lead”. The only way the film will succeed is if everything else about the production is superb.

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Polar
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, atalante said:
Polar, 
I presume Ulf intended to use the data from "one line higher in Table 2 of his article".
i.e. the line for a canal that Plato declared to be 0.5 stades wide (three plethra wide).
 
This line-shifting error produces the same effect that Pettytalk has reported.

Canal from Outer Water Ring to the Sea,
Width 0,5   stade    93   meters @185m/stade
Depth 0,17 stade   30,8 meters @185m/stade 
 
 
 

8XkasHkGiKnRX6dmXt3JPQZim2mzB6YFpxzHDwpj

http://www.black-sea-atlantis.com/richter.pdf

Atalante,

That would be the most logic explanation. Indeed, above the lines describing:

Circumferential Canal round the Plain  Length 10000 1850000 524000

                                                                   Width       1        185         52,4

                                                                   Depth      0,17     30,8         8,7

there is the "exiting" canal, which is perhaps the reason for the discrepancy:

Canal from Outer Water Ring to the Sea Length     50      9600       2620

Thanks for the info and clarification. 

 

Edited by Polar

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Polar
Posted (edited)

Deleted. Double post.

Edited by Polar

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Polar
10 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

What makes you deaf to the noise already raised on this one, too?

Why it's so noisy that all that din and clatter goes on both day and night, like the noise heard in the Capital, which comes from the Baltimore harbors, especially the clatter of metal from the outer one, a port for container ships, coming from all parts of the world.

Plato's Critias. An excerpt.

Leaving the palace and passing out across the three harbours, you came to a wall which began at the sea and went all round: this was everywhere distant fifty stadia from the largest zone or harbour, and enclosed the whole, the ends meeting at the mouth of the channel which led to the sea. The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_megalopolis

I don't know... but Sun Tzu does:

Quote

Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?

SUN TZU

 

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Hope clouds observation - Frank Herbert, Dune.

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Polar
6 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Why "must" it be converted to another unit of measurement?

I am not a Greek historian  (not in the sense of a historian who is Greek, but rather a researcher of Greek history. Just being clear), but surely the 'stade' is a known measurement? 

That's like saying that before we can know how long a metre is, we have to convert the number to 'X' number of Klingon Kallicams.

 That is a quote from Ulf Richter. Not me.

Please if you have time to read the article, it would be a good start:

Quote

9. “KHET” INSTEAD OF STADE

We have, indeed, an example that a famous Greek author gave wrong information by transforming Egyptian length units into Greek "stades". This was Herodotus, the "father of history" , who gave all distances in Egypt (in stades) much longer as they are in reality, while he reported all the distances in Greece correctly. The usual explanation for this error is that he has mixed up the Egyptian units of measurement, obviously taken from an Egyptian itinerary, before he transformed them into stades.

A similar error could have taken place while the Egyptian priest narrated the Atlantis story to Solon. It is self-evident that the priest gave all the distances in Egyptian units of measurement, as they were written in the ancient texts, and Solon wrote them down as he heard them for later transformation into Greek stades. When he returned to Greece he had no opportunity for this calculation or forgot it. His heirs (Dropides, Critias the Elder and Critias the Younger) found in Solon´s notes only the figures without the units of measurement and obviously thought it must be stades (especially since in their time, due to the busy trade with the Greeks, even the Egyptian people were using Greek stades in addition to their own units), and Critias passed this (erroneous) information on to Plato. I feel that this is a very probable error in the long chain of tradition between the Saitic priest and Plato. Which unit of measurement was commonly used by the ancient Egyptians? It was the "Royal Cubit" or "Meh" (0,524 m) and for longer distances the "Khet" = 100 "Royal Cubits" (1 khet = 52,4 meters = 172 feet) /7/ When we take this "khet" for what Plato called "stade", we get much more probable dimensions for Atlantis than those mentioned before.

The dimensions were just too large, e.g.

Quote

If the plain of Atlantis had a size of 555 x 370 km, it would not be possible to recognize from its centre that it is encircled by mountain chains, due to their great distance.

http://www.black-sea-atlantis.com/richter.pdf

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