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Polar

Plato´s Atlantis was in a River Delta

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Jodie.Lynne
6 minutes ago, Polar said:

That is a quote from Ulf Richter. Not me.

But you are quoting him, with authority, as if his conjectures are fact. YOU believe this, Yet you cannot explain why a known unit of measure, has to be converted to another unit of measure, before it can be converted to modern measurements?

 

7 minutes ago, Polar said:

The dimensions were just too large, e.g.

This smells like Graham Hancock and his infamous "pyramid inch", which he developed in order to make his pet theory work out.  Ulf seems to be saying that the measurements given by Plato are impossible, therefore, he must have been mistaken, so lets find a system of measure that fits the theory.

There have been settlements and civilizations all around the Mediterranean, for century upon century, yet ONLY the ancient Greeks have any direct reference to "Atlantis" and "Atlanteans". Not the Myceneans, the Phoenicians, the Babylonians, the Persians, or the Egyptians. ONLY the Greeks, and ONLY ONE Greek at that. One would think that an ancient advanced race (NOT ray guns and ironclads!), that conquered all they could grab onto, would at least rate a mention in other ancient cultures.

And I'm sure that Atlanto-philes can dig up vague references, but nothing that can be used to unequivocally point to "Atlantis". And I'm pretty sure that any African nations on the Northwestern shore of Africa would have some name for the gigantic expanse of water to their West. But still, no mention of any people coming out of the "big water".

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Polar
7 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Ulf got it all wrong. Nothing on Ulf's figure, showing the plain and the mountains, is even remotely close to the picture Plato drew with words.

And are you trying to "Badger" me with that street map?

Please can you tell me where do you think he was wrong? Are you disagreeing with the river delta concept?

I personally think he got it right because if you change Plato's Critias dimension system from stadia to khet, all (more than thirty) measurements fit within modern standards. The plain, the city diameter, etc, etc, etc. 

He could actually be wrong, but nonetheless, one cannot deny it is a great coincidence that the dimensions for the most important Atlantis engineering features are the same as in nowadays.

And sorry about the map, it was completely inappropriate. I just realized i ended up posting an image that had caught my eye, while searching for street maps:

10 Real Intersections With Unforgettable Names

My apologies again for the fault. 

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Jodie.Lynne
12 minutes ago, Polar said:

Are you disagreeing with the river delta concept?

Yes, because (besides being allegorical), I don't think Plato would confuse an island, with a delta.

 

13 minutes ago, Polar said:

I personally think he got it right because if you change Plato's Critias dimension system from stadia to khet, all (more than thirty) measurements fit within modern standards.

What modern standards?  If I convert the height of the great pyramid of Khufu from inches to kallicams, it comes out to 93,0000,000 (93 million) kallicams, the exact distance from the Earth to the Sun. "Proving" that the ancient Egyptians were possessed of advance astronomical information that was lost to the ages.

Or are you, and Ulf, trying to say that Plato had no understanding of his native measuring system? That would be like me stating that the Empire State Building was 8 miles tall.

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jaylemurph
1 hour ago, Polar said:

I don't know... but Sun Tzu does:

 

I’m sure, unchecked, you could make the world a far more ignorant place. 

But your greatest check is yourself, so the world’s pretty safe for now.

—Jaylemurph  

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Sir Wearer of Hats

47492430-7611-4B7A-A045-CF9FF8E3D92B.thumb.jpeg.cf7dcbcddebd8a0cb89e8113a3d3663d.jpeg

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Pettytalk
On 7/21/2019 at 3:43 PM, Polar said:

I don't know... but Sun Tzu does:

 

I think that you are not just Polar, but Bipolar.

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Pettytalk
On 7/21/2019 at 4:28 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

But you are quoting him, with authority, as if his conjectures are fact. YOU believe this, Yet you cannot explain why a known unit of measure, has to be converted to another unit of measure, before it can be converted to modern measurements?

 

This smells like Graham Hancock and his infamous "pyramid inch", which he developed in order to make his pet theory work out.  Ulf seems to be saying that the measurements given by Plato are impossible, therefore, he must have been mistaken, so lets find a system of measure that fits the theory.

There have been settlements and civilizations all around the Mediterranean, for century upon century, yet ONLY the ancient Greeks have any direct reference to "Atlantis" and "Atlanteans". Not the Myceneans, the Phoenicians, the Babylonians, the Persians, or the Egyptians. ONLY the Greeks, and ONLY ONE Greek at that. One would think that an ancient advanced race (NOT ray guns and ironclads!), that conquered all they could grab onto, would at least rate a mention in other ancient cultures.

And I'm sure that Atlanto-philes can dig up vague references, but nothing that can be used to unequivocally point to "Atlantis". And I'm pretty sure that any African nations on the Northwestern shore of Africa would have some name for the gigantic expanse of water to their West. But still, no mention of any people coming out of the "big water".

I quite agree with you, although my opinion matters little here. But since we have freedom of speech around here, sort of, I want to add that Atlantis had not even been founded yet, in Plato's times.

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Pettytalk
On 7/21/2019 at 4:34 PM, Polar said:

Please can you tell me where do you think he was wrong? Are you disagreeing with the river delta concept?

Almost totally disagree.

The capital of Atlantis is in a sort of an ancient delta, as it had to be, since all rivers usually end up forming deltas at the end of their run back to where they came from. Plato described an ancient river, with its tributaries, when he mentioned the unbelievable ditch. Then the action switches to another location, as it's giving further clues about flowing in two opposite directions, to then meeting at the city (capital) and after, let off at the sea. This later part has a second meaning, as the capital city must have two rivers meeting there, and then both, as one, empty into the sea. 

But to tell you where Ulf got it wrong, I believe that even the ardent Atlantis seekers are more than willing to tell you where he got it wrong. Logically, if these other seekers thought Ulf got it right, they would have given up their own pet hypotheses, and handed the trophy to Ulf.

Here are just a couple of my own reasons why Ulf got it wrong.

Plato's Critias.

Now Atlas had a fair posterity, and great treasures derived from mines—among them that precious metal orichalcum; and there was abundance of wood, and
herds of elephants, and pastures for animals of all kinds, and fragrant herbs, and grasses, and trees bearing fruit. These they used, and employed themselves
in constructing their temples, and palaces, and harbours, and docks, in the following manner:–First, they bridged over the zones of sea, and made a way to and from the royal palace which they built in the centre island.

https://www.tripsavvy.com/washington-dc-bridges-1040468

Washington DC has seven major bridges across the Potomac River, six major bridges across the Anacostia River, and more than a dozen bridges scattered along the length of Rock Creek Park. Some of these structures are beautiful and provide the city’s best views, while others are functional yet indistinct. The capital region has dozens of bridges across small streams, over other streets and highways, and railroad tracks. Washington DC's bridges carry hundreds of thousands of vehicles a day and are important to the region's infrastructure.

Plato's Critias

Also there were fountains of hot and cold water, and suitable buildings surrounding them, and trees, and there were baths both of the kings and of private individuals, and separate baths for women, and also for cattle. The water from the baths was carried to the grove of Poseidon, and by aqueducts over the
bridges
to the outer circles.

Aqueduct Bridge (Potomac River)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqueduct_Bridge_(Potomac_River)

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Mellon Man

@Pettytalk can I ask a question? Do you understand the general problems with translating ancient Greek? Take Herodotus as an exsample, the most accepted translation just a decade ago, is now fundamentally diffrent to the newest accepted version. 

Hence, you should be extremely cautious when relying on specific terms. 

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Pettytalk
On 7/21/2019 at 4:54 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

it comes out to 93,0000,000 (93 million) kallicams, the exact distance from the Earth to the Sun

kalliicams? I thought 1 kallicam was roughly about 2 kilometers?

 

On 7/21/2019 at 4:54 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Or are you, and Ulf, trying to say that Plato had no understanding of his native measuring system? That would be like me stating that the Empire State Building was 8 miles tall.

Come on, let us get realistic, what does exactness have to do with myth? After all, on an Island that is larger than Asia and Libya combined, what's an inch here and an inch there, more or less?

Why even Plato got into approximation. After having given us all those precise figures, he tells that a certain place is located "about" 50 stadia away from somewhere. In a place that is supposed to be so big, what difference can it make, give or take a stadia, or two? Keeping the stadia at 185 meters.

Now I ask, although I know the answer already, what the hell is this "about" all about?

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Pettytalk
1 hour ago, Mellon Man said:

Do you understand the general problems with translating ancient Greek?

No I don't, as I don't understand ancient Greek, at this time. In fact, I don't understand you. What are you getting at my man? Give me some specific terms, and then tell me what is there to understand as a problem. Keep it to Herodotus, and the theme that he is not to be trusted with what he reported through hearsay. Which was the point at which you interjected yourself between myself and another poster.

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Piney
2 hours ago, Mellon Man said:

Hence, you should be extremely cautious when relying on specific terms. 

I already tried explaining the concept of "linguistic nuances" to him but to no avail. Apparently American English covers all bases. :lol:

He thinks the story of Atlantis is a "prophecy" concerning the U.S. if they don't obey the Christian god and that he is the reincarnation of Plato.

 

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Peter Cox
4 minutes ago, Piney said:

I already tried explaining the concept of "linguistic nuances" to him but to no avail. Apparently American English covers all bases. :lol:

He thinks the story of Atlantis is a "prophecy" concerning the U.S. if they don't obey the Christian god and that he is the reincarnation of Plato.

 

Because when they say in days long past it really means in days still to come....

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Polar
On 7/21/2019 at 2:21 PM, Kenemet said:

Surely the original said "stadia" and not "meters" (which didn't exist as a measurement until 1790) and the "foot" was only standardized around 1300 AD (in the reign of Henry I.)  

So if discussing measures, it would be more logical to see what the original said (I *think* the only surviving ancient copies are in Latin, so "stadia" would not be a correct measurement.)  Perhaps someone could look up the oldest translations source and report back on it.

And that said, they actually hadn't standardized measurements back then; each builder could have had different lengths for each measurement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_units_of_measurement

Not being an expert, but since you brought it up i wonder why Jowett and others did refer to stadia then? they surely knew...

Regarding measurements not being standardized, i found this:

Quote

The word "Stadium" derives from the Greek word «ordÖiov». which used to be an ancient Greek unit of length, that varied from place to place, usually of about 177,55 up to 192,27 meters.

https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/icomoshefte/article/viewFile/20866/14640

Thank you for the info, differences between various "stadia" are not negligible but nevertheless i think we can still have a good approximation of what Plato stated to be the measures in Atlantis.

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Pettytalk

Just addressing the general public here.

As Plato had the very old, and wise, Egyptian priest say about Solon and the other Hellenes, I say it to those here who think they really know Plato, and especially about his Atlantis story.

Plato's Timaeus.

O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age.

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Peter Cox
9 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Just addressing the general public here.

As Plato had the very old, and wise, Egyptian priest say about Solon and the other Hellenes, I say it to those here who think they really know Plato, and especially about his Atlantis story.

Plato's Timaeus.

O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age.

and your point is? This is if you have a point at all and that too is doubtful. 

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Mellon Man
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

No I don't, as I don't understand ancient Greek, at this time. In fact, I don't understand you. What are you getting at my man? Give me some specific terms, and then tell me what is there to understand as a problem. Keep it to Herodotus, and the theme that he is not to be trusted with what he reported through hearsay. Which was the point at which you interjected yourself between myself and another poster.

Well from the sound it, Piney and others have already tried to explain the problems, so given your attitude I wont bother. 

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Polar
On 7/21/2019 at 10:28 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

But you are quoting him, with authority, as if his conjectures are fact. YOU believe this, Yet you cannot explain why a known unit of measure, has to be converted to another unit of measure, before it can be converted to modern measurements?

 

This smells like Graham Hancock and his infamous "pyramid inch", which he developed in order to make his pet theory work out.  Ulf seems to be saying that the measurements given by Plato are impossible, therefore, he must have been mistaken, so lets find a system of measure that fits the theory.

There have been settlements and civilizations all around the Mediterranean, for century upon century, yet ONLY the ancient Greeks have any direct reference to "Atlantis" and "Atlanteans". Not the Myceneans, the Phoenicians, the Babylonians, the Persians, or the Egyptians. ONLY the Greeks, and ONLY ONE Greek at that. One would think that an ancient advanced race (NOT ray guns and ironclads!), that conquered all they could grab onto, would at least rate a mention in other ancient cultures.

And I'm sure that Atlanto-philes can dig up vague references, but nothing that can be used to unequivocally point to "Atlantis". And I'm pretty sure that any African nations on the Northwestern shore of Africa would have some name for the gigantic expanse of water to their West. But still, no mention of any people coming out of the "big water".

Look, i quoted him to make a point, and show what i thought was "his" line of thinking.

I do think that he was correct when he states that there could be something wrong with the measures given in Plato's Timaeus, because not only is it written that Solon did not finish his tale:

Quote

Yes, Amynander, if Solon had only, like other poets, made poetry the business of his life, and had completed the tale which he brought with him from Egypt, and had not been compelled, by reason of the factions and troubles which he found stirring in his own country when he came home, to attend to other matters, in my opinion he would have been as famous as Homer or Hesiod, or any poet. 

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

Furthermore, we know that there have been a conversion (the most logical explanation) from khet to stadia somehow along the way, since they were in Egypt and there were so many features reported during Solon's visit, according to Plato. Here is an excerpt of Ulf Richter own reasoning regarding this issue:

Quote

We have, indeed, an example that a famous Greek author gave wrong information by transforming Egyptian length units into Greek "stades". This was Herodotus, the "father of history" , who gave all distances in Egypt (in stades) much longer as they are in reality, while he reported all the distances in Greece correctly. The usual explanation for this error is that he has mixed up the Egyptian units of measurement, obviously taken from an Egyptian itinerary, before he transformed them into stades.

A similar error could have taken place while the Egyptian priest narrated the Atlantis story to Solon. It is self-evident that the priest gave all the distances in Egyptian units of measurement, as they were written in the ancient texts, and Solon wrote them down as he heard them for later transformation into Greek stades. When he returned to Greece he had no opportunity for this calculation or forgot it. His heirs (Dropides, Critias the Elder and Critias the Younger) found in Solon´s notes only the figures without the units of measurement and obviously thought it must be stades (especially since in their time, due to the busy trade with the Greeks, even the Egyptian people were using Greek stades in addition to their own units), and Critias passed this (erroneous) information on to Plato.

 

But the really interesting thing is that after Ulf Richeter's conversion, it appears that Atlantis dimensions become more convincing and acceptable:

Quote

I feel that this is a very probable error in the long chain of tradition between the Saitic priest and Plato.

Which unit of measurement was commonly used by the ancient Egyptians? It was the "Royal Cubit" or "Meh" (0,524 m) and for longer distances the "Khet" = 100 "Royal Cubits" (1 khet = 52,4 meters = 172 feet) /7/ When we take this "khet" for what Plato called "stade", we get much more probable dimensions for Atlantis than those mentioned before. (See table 2, column 3):

a) The size of the level plain is 105 x 157 km (16475 sq.km, a little smaller than the Peloponesos-peninsula in Greece).

B) The diameter of the central city of Atlantis is 6,7 km (The city of Rome in the late times of the Roman empire (Aurelian wall) had a diameter of 6 km and about one million inhabitants).

c) The racecourse for horses is 52 m wide and 3 kilometers long, like one of the larger modern racecourses.

d) The canal round the plain is 524 km long, 52 m wide and 8,7 m deep. (The forerunner of the Suez canal, built by pharaoh Necho and king Dareios of Persia about 500 BC, was 180 km long, 45 m wide and had a depth of 5.5 m; see table 1)

e) The bridges over the circular canals are 8,7 m wide, comparable with the breadth of medieval bridges.

f) The temple of Poseidon has a size of 26 x 52 m, a very reasonable size compared with the famous Poseidon temple in Paestum/Italy (24 x 60 m).

[...]

The Acropolis in Athens (120 x 280 m) has an area of about 30000 sq.m compared with 54000 sq.m for the central island of Atlantis.

We can conclude that it makes sense to take Egyptian “Khets” instead of Greek “Stades” for getting a better interpretation of the dimensions of Atlantis in Plato´s “Critias”.

http://www.black-sea-atlantis.com/richter.pdf

I will link the table for better understanding:

Table 2

Regarding what you said about no other settlement or civilization had ever referred to Atlantis before, i must say it is beyond the scope of this thread, but nonetheless, i agree...

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Polar
On 7/21/2019 at 10:54 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

Yes, because (besides being allegorical), I don't think Plato would confuse an island, with a delta.

 

What modern standards?  If I convert the height of the great pyramid of Khufu from inches to kallicams, it comes out to 93,0000,000 (93 million) kallicams, the exact distance from the Earth to the Sun. "Proving" that the ancient Egyptians were possessed of advance astronomical information that was lost to the ages.

Or are you, and Ulf, trying to say that Plato had no understanding of his native measuring system? That would be like me stating that the Empire State Building was 8 miles tall.

I think Plato portrayed something like Romania's Danube delta, draining into the Black sea. An internal delta (allegorical or not) "inside" the large island of Atlantis:

Quote

The Danube Delta (Romanian: Delta Dunării pronounced [ˈdelta ˈdunərij] (About this soundlisten); Ukrainian: Дельта Дунаю, Deľta Dunayu, Ukrainian pronunciation: [dɛlʲˈtɑ dunɑˈju]) is the second largest river delta in Europe, after the Volga Delta, and is the best preserved on the continent.[2] The greater part of the Danube Delta lies in Romania (Tulcea County), with a small part in Ukraine (Odessa Oblast).[3][4] Its approximate surface area is 4,152 km2 (1,603 sq mi), of which 3,446 km2 (1,331 sq mi) is in Romania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube_Delta

 

| Location of Danube-Black Sea system and the evolution phases of Danube delta. (A) Black Sea and its watershed (contoured with dashed white line), Danube's watershed (contoured with white line); Danube and Danube delta (blue line and green fill respectively). Location of core GGC18/ MC19 is indicated. (B) Geologic map of the Danube delta showing the extent of the present delta plain, the thickness of its deposits (red isopachs in meters) as well as the mapped extent of individual lobes 15 (see also SI): Tulcea (pre-5500 yrs BP to Present); St. George I (,5500-3600 yrs BP); Sulina (,3600-2000 yrs BP); St. George II and Dunavatz, (both ,2000 yrs BP to present); Chilia I (older than 1000 yrs BP ); Chilia II (,1000-300 yrs BP); and Chilia III (,300 yrs BP to present). (C) Satellite image showing the expansion of Danube delta over the last 2000 years (land built during this period highlighted with a yellow mask).

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Location-of-Danube-Black-Sea-system-and-the-evolution-phases-of-Danube-delta-A-Black_fig4_230769951

 

I think i have answered that question in my previous post. 

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Polar
5 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

I think that you are not just Polar, but Bipolar.

 

Quote

Bipolar disorder, previously known as manic depression, is a mental disorder that causes periods of depression and periods of abnormally elevated mood.

 

 

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Pettytalk
15 minutes ago, Polar said:

 

 

 

I'm a big Hendrix's fan. Well familiar with the tune. And it should not come as a surprise around here, I'm Bipolar myself, besides having obvious multi split personality complex.

But really, I was playing on your double post, and your silly reply. So I take it you were never an alumni at UW, nor a Badger fan? Just a random web map snapshot that tickled your fancy, right?

How long have you been dibbling with Atlantis?

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Pettytalk
1 hour ago, Mellon Man said:

Well from the sound it, Piney and others have already tried to explain the problems, so given your attitude I wont bother. 

You should not have bothered to begin with. That's my attitude from the start. You are just a big teaser, exposing yourself on this thread, and wanting to seem inviting and giving, to then when asked to put out, you pull away with a lame excuse. Your friends haven't and could not explain anything to me.

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Piney
19 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

You should not have bothered to begin with. That's my attitude from the start. You are just a big teaser, exposing yourself on this thread, and wanting to seem inviting and giving, to then when asked to put out, you pull away with a lame excuse. Your friends haven't and could not explain anything to me.

Pot-Kettle again! :)

 

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Kenemet
3 hours ago, Polar said:

Not being an expert, but since you brought it up i wonder why Jowett and others did refer to stadia then? they surely knew...

Regarding measurements not being standardized, i found this:

https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/icomoshefte/article/viewFile/20866/14640

Thank you for the info, differences between various "stadia" are not negligible but nevertheless i think we can still have a good approximation of what Plato stated to be the measures in Atlantis.

I don't know why they referred to stadia/feet/etc.  It would be something created in translation and could ultimately lead to a LOT of errors (as you might get in translating cubits (of many types) to yards and from yards to ells and ells to meters.)

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Pettytalk
1 hour ago, Polar said:

We have, indeed, an example that a famous Greek author gave wrong information by transforming Egyptian length units into Greek "stades". This was Herodotus, the "father of history" , who gave all distances in Egypt (in stades) much longer as they are in reality, while he reported all the distances in Greece correctly. The usual explanation for this error is that he has mixed up the Egyptian units of measurement, obviously taken from an Egyptian itinerary, before he transformed them into stades.

A similar error could have taken place while the Egyptian priest narrated the Atlantis story to Solon. It is self-evident that the priest gave all the distances in Egyptian units of measurement, as they were written in the ancient texts, and Solon wrote them down as he heard them for later transformation into Greek stades. When he returned to Greece he had no opportunity for this calculation or forgot it. His heirs (Dropides, Critias the Elder and Critias the Younger) found in Solon´s notes only the figures without the units of measurement and obviously thought it must be stades (especially since in their time, due to the busy trade with the Greeks, even the Egyptian people were using Greek stades in addition to their own units), and Critias passed this (erroneous) information on to Plato.

Who are those lame brains, besides Ulf, that make out Solon to be some sort of bumbling fool? We are talking about one of the wisest of the Greeks, one of the seven wisest. I have heard other accusations about Solon's supposed errors or omissions with Egyptian matters. Those who want Atlantis on Thera have Solon mistake the Egyptian symbol for 100 for the one for 1,000, thereby making their cherry smaller by a ratio of 10 to 1. Others, playing with the 9,000 and 8,000 years dates obstacle, use the excuse that Solon misunderstood the lunar months for solar years, thereby shrinking those years down by 12 to 1.

Again, Plato made certain that these idiotic ideas would not go far. We have the passage, symbolically, showing Solon assuring and verifying all those Egyptian names and figures the Egyptian themselves translated from the "Atlantean" language. And if the man went to such trouble as to assure the Egyptian translation of the names, surely he would not have neglected to assure the translation of numbers and units, especially knowing about all the knocking he would receive for telling of such a strange, immense sized land, and such a strange time which no one had ever heard of before, no, not even the future "hearsay" papa, Herodotus. And Herodotus does mention Solon quite a bit in his Histories. And Herodotus, if we can believe him here, said himself to have visited Saiis and spoken with the priests there. How could the Egyptians have forgotten to tell Herodotus what they told Solon only 150 years earlier? They had the records, supposedly, for thousands of years, then all is lost and forgotten in only about a century and a half? Herodotus himself would be the best witness for the prosecution, accusing Plato of making things up, but his reputation was marred, probably, by Plutarch or Thucydides, or both, insinuating that papa Herodotus was a compulsive liar, and therefore the judge would ask the jury to disregard anything he had to say on the matter of Atlantis, and have it stricken from the court records. Or rather, that he did not even mention a word of what Plato has written about it.  

Plato's Critias.

Yet, before proceeding further in the narrative, I ought to warn you, that you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners. I will tell you the reason of this: Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language, and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language.

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