Plato´s Atlantis was in a River Delta

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

That's what it looked like to me. I would like @Kenemet's opinion on what is actually written on these walls but she's loaded up and might not answer for a while. 

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=a5wxBwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA205&dq=+Padiamenope&ots=tIMjyPLKeh&sig=UD3U3ySLZOI1Zk93UlQCL-TY_iU#v=onepage&q=Padiamenope&f=false

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01919154/

Atalante made this claim before:

He's not trying to prove he has a real mention of Atlantis he is trying to implant the 'possibility' of their being a mention of Atlantis.

Atlantis fandom involves not trying to find the place just trying to establish a 'possibility'. Probably and plausibility is for suckers.

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Hanslune

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

That's what it looked like to me. I would like @Kenemet's opinion on what is actually written on these walls but she's loaded up and might not answer for a while. 

"Loaded up". Do I want to know what that means ? 

[Hanslune]

4 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

"Loaded up". Do I want to know what that means ? 

Has a lot on her plate - busy -  Danish Travl

 

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

"Loaded up". Do I want to know what that means ? 

September is a teacher's "busy time". 

[Hanslune]

47 minutes ago, Piney said:

September is a teacher's "busy time". 

I do remember that faintly............my wife is still working and that mustsa been what she was whining about recently...during Monday Night football no less.

[docyabut2]

gee all, the island of Atlantis faced  a country called Gades,  Gades was a small island that was not off the coast of Africa. but it was off the coast or a delta of Spain,

 I know there were  some researchers were digging into the Donana  park  and did find some artifacts.

[ThereWeAreThen]

6 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

gee all, the island of Atlantis faced  a country called Gades,  Gades was a small island that was not off the coast of Africa. but it was off the coast or a delta of Spain,

 I know there were  some researchers were digging into the Donana  park  and did find some artifacts.

Its impossible for something which doesn't exist to face any direction. 

[Jodie.Lynne]

8 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

I do remember that faintly............my wife is still working and that mustsa been what she was whining about recently...during Monday Night football no less.

The nerve of her!

She should serve you a nice refreshing libation while you are relaxing.

 

I suggest a nice "Nightshade Nocturne".... It's to die for! 

 

[docyabut2]

17 minutes ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

Its impossible for something which doesn't exist to face any direction. 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/researchers-claim-they-found-atlantis-in-a-spanish-swamp/article4268182/

In September, 2009, Dr. Freund and his team arrived in the Marisma de Hinojos marsh in southern Spain, part of the Coto Doñana National Park, to investigate aerial photographs that showed a geographic anomaly beneath the marsh.

The mud flats are dry for just two months a year and closed to the public, but the satellite imagery had revealed a circular area in the center of the marsh, and German archeologist Werner Wickboldt has hypothesized that other visible structures resemble those Plato describes in his writings on Atlantis.

Edited September 25, 2019 by docyabut2

[ThereWeAreThen]

2 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/researchers-claim-they-found-atlantis-in-a-spanish-swamp/article4268182/

CLAIMED doesn't mean FOUND. The article was published in 2011 and updated in 2018. IF they found Atlantis we wouldn't be hearing about all the **** that's happening around the world atm that's for sure.

[docyabut2]

5 minutes ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

CLAIMED doesn't mean FOUND. The article was published in 2011 and updated in 2018. IF they found Atlantis we wouldn't be hearing about all the **** that's happening around the world atm that's for sure.

Atlantis could have been buried very very deep:)

[ThereWeAreThen]

Just now, docyabut2 said:

Atlantis could have been buried very very deep:)

Yes, like the One Ring to rule them all may actually be at the bottom of some lake in New Zealand or I will wake up one morning with an ingenious business idea an become a billionaire overnight.

I'm sorry for sounding to mocking, I'd love atlantis to exist, like I'd love ghosts to exist or heck I'd love reincarnation to exist. But it just doesn't. There is literally no evidence just hearsay. Word from mouth. That's it.

[jaylemurph]

43 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

gee all, the island of Atlantis faced  a country called Gades,  Gades was a small island that was not off the coast of Africa. but it was off the coast or a delta of Spain,

 I know there were  some researchers were digging into the Donana  park  and did find some artifacts.

So you’re saying archaeologists found archaeological remains of a known culture at an archaeological park. 

Hunh.

—Jaylemurph  

[docyabut2]

5 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

So you’re saying archaeologists found archaeological remains of a known culture at an archaeological park. 

Hunh.

—Jaylemurph  

yes:)

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/researchers-claim-they-found-atlantis-in-a-spanish-swamp/article4268182/

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by docyabut2

[cormac mac airt]

14 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

yes:)

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/researchers-claim-they-found-atlantis-in-a-spanish-swamp/article4268182/

 

And if so then Tartessian Culture is being crapped on in attempt to link it with Atlantis. 

cormac

[Kenemet]

6 hours ago, atalante said:

The archaeological and Egyptian mythological evidence converges in Theban Tomb 33 (TT33).

It should be recalled that BEFORE the time of (Greek) Proclus there was no "allegory" about a wealthy-but-corrupt-Atlantis vs a poor-but-noble-Athens.

What did exist BEFORE Proclus was the theme epitomized by Porphyry (and in similar but lessor measure, represented also by Numenius and Origen) - that Plato's Atlantis theme was about Egyptian demons in the far west, which destroy human souls. 

There is no Egyptian document about demons in the far west that destroy human souls.

The only spirit that destroyed human souls was Ammut, Devourer of the Dead.  She only destroys those who fail the 42 negative confessions.   Mention of her is far older than Solon,etc... dating to earlier than 1300 BC.  She has nothing to do with Atlantis.

Quote

At the time of Solon - and also at the time of Critias and Plato - Theban Tomb 33 was an Egyptian museum open to the Egyptian public (but especially, open to Egyptian priests), which displayed on its walls copies of:  Egypt's Book of Amduat; Book of Gates; and Book of the Dead.   

That's not plausible.

In the first place, copies of these books were found in every single temple library (the Per Ankh) for scribes and priests to copy.   There was no such thing as a museum

Furthermore, running down to Thebes and entering a tomb (bringing light, traveling down a series of ramps and shafts) is a complete waste of time when you could simply take a very short and safe stroll to the temple library where there's plenty of light, plenty of tables, writing materials, and storage space for scrolls and pens and so forth.  Plus temples had their own source of water (for ink) and lots of workers to grind inks, clean the palette, fix brushes, bring meals, etc, etc.

 

Quote

Solon's Egyptian priest says that "actual writings" (Tim 24a) can be consulted and studied.  This alludes to copies of sacred texts on the walls of Padiamenope's funerary palace, now called Theban Tomb 33 (TT33), which was  described in detail by its curator Claude Traunecker.  

 

These texts are found on many coffins and tomb walls.  And they have nothing to do with Atlantis.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Kenemet

[jaylemurph]

Real scholarship > Internet “Research.”

—Jaylemurph 

[Orphalesion]

 

 

On 9/23/2019 at 4:26 AM, Captain Risky said:

He was the son of Zeus.

Except the fragmentary myths were he/Zagreus is sometimes considered the son of Hades and Persephone :-)  While the Zeus/Semele version is the one that is accept today, there seems to have been a lot of debate in Ancient Greece itself on who Dionysus' parents were.
As to the proof about whether the Minoan Gods influenced the Greek ones...the proof is in the Minoan inscriptions that have survived. Most of the names of the Olympian gods are found there, but they seem to have had slightly different rules. As far as I've read the only "big" names missing are Hermes (he was an aspect of Pan), Aphrodite (she's basically Ishtar whom the Phoenicians imported into Greece and who was stripped off her warrior attributes) and possibly Hades. 

On 9/23/2019 at 3:24 AM, jaylemurph said:

I wrote an article on the Thracian origin of Dionysus —or rather, Zagreus, his nocturnal counterpart. Sounds like I need to revisit its conclusions, though, in light of Minoan influence. 

...although I think I used some Linear A as evidence of something or other. It’s been five years or more since I wrote it. 

—Jaylemurph 

Is there any way I can read that article? I'm very fascinated by Dionysus and Zagreus and always love learning more about him/them.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Orphalesion

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

Is there any way I can read that article? I'm very fascinated by Dionysus and Zagreus and always love learning more about him/them.

I'll PM you a copy from my work desktop tomorrow,

But only if @jmccr8 says it's worth reading.

--Jaylemurph

[jmccr8]

Just now, jaylemurph said:

I'll PM you a copy from my work desktop tomorrow,

But only if @jmccr8 says it's worth reading.

--Jaylemurph

Hi Jaylemurph

Yes it is well worth reading an much appreciated 

jmccr8

[+Pettytalk]

Just what is needed, more mythological studies........it's just spirited nonsense!

What more is there to know about Dionysus? He was just a drunkard, and never went to any AA meetings to sober up.  And the same can be said of those drunk on opinions, believing to be knowledge.

Plato's Cratylus.

HERMOGENES: What about ‘Dionysos’ and ‘Aphrodite’?
SOCRATES: You’re asking great things of me, son of Hipponicus, because
there is not only a serious way of explaining the names of these divinities
but a playful one as well. You’ll have to ask others for the serious one,
but there’s nothing to prevent us from going through the playful one—
even the gods love play. Dionysos, the giver of wine (ho didous ton oinon),
might playfully be called ‘Didoinusos’; while wine (oinos) would most justly
be called ‘oionous’, since it makes most drinkers think they understood
(oiesthai noun echein) when they don’t........

 

[+Pettytalk]

7 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

gee all, the island of Atlantis faced  a country called Gades,  Gades was a small island that was not off the coast of Africa. but it was off the coast or a delta of Spain,

 I know there were  some researchers were digging into the Donana  park  and did find some artifacts.

You seem to have some very formidable opponents to contend with, and only your perseverance will aid you in your lost cause......the lost Atlantis. Atlantis is lost to those that cannot find it.

It's an Herculean feat that we need in finding Atlantis,....I mean another of his labors, to be clear; a new and modern one performed by our ancient hero, the son of Zeus.

 

 

 

[+Pettytalk]

On 9/23/2019 at 2:51 PM, Swede said:

You are failing to support your contention. That later authors,Christian or otherwise, appreciated Plato's philosophical perspectives does not equate to prophecy. More extraneous rambling does not an argument make. And you have failed to address the previous matters as repeated below:

Kindly present your empirical evidence that: 1) Plato ever considered himself to be a "prophet"; 2) That Plato was somehow directly engaged in early Judaeo-Christian belief systems.

.

I believe that I set the record straight on the precursor of setting the stage by Plato for Christianity, much like John the Baptist preparing the way for the coming messiah. But apparently you did not like it for your personal subjective taste. Such is the spicy of life, we all live to differ.

As far as Plato ever considering himself as a prophet, that can be seen indirectly. Since Plato is Socrates, and Socrates was consecrated to Apollo, as he himself asserted, then indeed there is an element of prophecy in Plato, because Apollo was also the god of prophecy. There are passages in Plato which allude to this very thing, prophecy. Of course, the way I see it, just about everything in Plato is related to prophecy for our times, but that is nearly impossible for just anyone to see. It's obviously impossible for you.

Plato's Cratylus:

.....There is the other name, Apollo,
which, as I was saying, is generally supposed to have some terrible signification.
Have you remarked this fact?
HERMOGENES: To be sure I have, and what you say is true.
SOCRATES: But the name, in my opinion, is really most expressive of the
power of the God.
HERMOGENES: How so?
SOCRATES: I will endeavour to explain, for I do not believe that any single
name could have been better adapted to express the attributes of the God,
embracing and in a manner signifying all four of them,–music, and prophecy,
and medicine, and archery.
HERMOGENES: That must be a strange name, and I should like to hear
the explanation.
SOCRATES: Say rather an harmonious name, as beseems the God of Harmony.
In the first place, the purgations and purifications which doctors and
diviners use, and their fumigations with drugs magical or medicinal, as well as
their washings and lustral sprinklings, have all one and the same object, which
is to make a man pure both in body and soul.
HERMOGENES: Very true.
SOCRATES: And is not Apollo the purifier, and the washer, and the absolver
from all impurities?
HERMOGENES: Very true.
SOCRATES: Then in reference to his ablutions and absolutions, as being
the physician who orders them, he may be rightly called Apolouon (purifier); or
in respect of his powers of divination, and his truth and sincerity, which is the
same as truth, he may be most fitly called Aplos, from aplous (sincere), as in the
Thessalian dialect, for all the Thessalians call him Aplos; also he is aei Ballon
(always shooting), because he is a master archer who never misses; or again,
the name may refer to his musical attributes, and then, as in akolouthos, and
akoitis, and in many other words the alpha is supposed to mean ’together,’ so the
meaning of the name Apollo will be ’moving together,’ whether in the poles of
heaven as they are called, or in the harmony of song, which is termed concord,
because he moves all together by an harmonious power, as astronomers and
musicians ingeniously declare. And he is the God who presides over harmony,
and makes all things move together, both among Gods and among men. And
as in the words akolouthos and akoitis the alpha is substituted for an omicron,
so the name Apollon is equivalent to omopolon; only the second lambda is
added in order to avoid the ill-omened sound of destruction (apolon). Now
the suspicion of this destructive power still haunts the minds of some who do
not consider the true value of the name, which, as I was saying just now, has
reference to all the powers of the God, who is the single one, the everdarting,
the purifier, the mover together (aplous, aei Ballon, apolouon, omopolon).

Plato's Phaedo.

Socrates replied with a smile: O Simmias, what are you saying? I am not very likely to persuade other men that I do not regard my present situation as a misfortune, if I cannot even persuade you that I am no worse off now than at any other time in my life. Will you not allow that I have as much of the spirit of prophecy in me as the swans? For they, when they perceive that they must die, having sung all their life long, do then sing more lustily than ever, rejoicing in the thought that they are about to go away to the god whose ministers they are. But men, because they are themselves afraid of death, slanderously affirm of the swans that they sing a lament at the last, not considering that no bird sings when cold, or hungry, or in pain, not even the nightingale, nor the swallow, nor yet the hoopoe; which are said indeed to tune a lay of sorrow, although I do not believe this to be true of them any more than of the swans. But because they are sacred to Apollo, they have the gift of prophecy, and anticipate the good things of another world, wherefore they sing and rejoice in that day more than they ever did before. And I too, believing myself to be the consecrated servant of the same God, and the fellow-servant of the swans, and thinking that I have received from my master gifts of prophecy which are not inferior to theirs, would not go out of life less merrily than the swans.

 

[Swede]

15 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

I believe that I set the record straight on the precursor of setting the stage by Plato for Christianity, much like John the Baptist preparing the way for the coming messiah. But apparently you did not like it for your personal subjective taste. Such is the spicy of life, we all live to differ.

As far as Plato ever considering himself as a prophet, that can be seen indirectly.

1) No, you did not. Utter speculation and confused rhetoric.

2) You thus admit that you have no empirical support for your contention that Plato considered himself to be a prophet or that the Dialogues presented prophetic intent. Instead, you resort to another convoluted morass of speculation and highly subjective "interpretation". You are, in effect, starting with a preconceived belief and attempting to support that belief by force-fitting a series of disjointed and not necessarily culturally consistent bits. Plato himself has been criticized for a similar practice. This is bad science and bad history.

The very foundation of your premise is that Plato was a prophet and that the Dialogues are prophetic in nature. You are unable to support this position. Thus, your entire "argument" is moot, null, and void.

So much band-width wasted for nothing. Had you had the intellectual (and personal) fortitude to present your position in full at the onset of your presence on these pages, as per the many requests to do so, you could have saved yourself and a great many others appreciable time.

Edit:Typo.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Swede

[jaylemurph]

2 hours ago, Swede said:

1) No, you did not. Utter speculation and confused rhetoric.

2) You thus admit that you have no empirical support for your contention that Plato considered himself to be a prophet or that the Dialogues presented prophetic intent. Instead, you resort to another convoluted morass of speculation and highly subjective "interpretation". You are, in effect, starting with a preconceived belief and attempting to support that belief by force-fitting a series of disjointed and not necessarily culturally consistent bits. Plato himself has been criticized for a similar practice. This is bad science and bad history.

The very foundation of your premise is that Plato was a prophet and that the Dialogues are prophetic in nature. You are unable to support this position. Thus, your entire "argument" is moot, null, and void.

So much band-width wasted for nothing. Had you had the intellectual (and personal) fortitude to present your position in full at the onset of your presence on these pages, as per the many requests to do so, you could have saved yourself and a great many others appreciable time.

Edit:Typo.

With John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and Plato all rolling around in his head now, you should be surprised you got /any/ cogent response out of Petty. Or at least, as cogent as his heady mix of pathological lying, religious zealotry and ignorance allow.

Although one wonders -- if he's both Jesus and John the Baptist -- just how he ties his shoes each day. Although traumatic brain injury through falling might explain a lot.

--Jaylemurph

Edited September 27, 2019 by jaylemurph