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and then

Saudi Arabia and Realpolitik

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and then
Posted (edited)

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/453544-us-saudi-arabia-policy-needs-a-dose-of-realpolitik

Excellent thought-piece on the role of Realpolitik in the M.E.  Hate it or love it, reality has certain rules in international relationships.

Edited by and then
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pixiii

I'm not sure I agree with their ways of doing things but it's certainly good food for thought.  I thought Truman's reply was interesting....

Spoiler
Quote

Anastasio Somoza García, Truman was assailed by his outraged advisers, who purportedly asked, “Don’t you know what a b****** he is?” Truman responded with a confident, “Yeah, but he’s our b******.”  

 

and as bad as it sounds, sometimes dealing with the devil you know is the only alternative. :yes:

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and then
1 hour ago, pixiii said:

and as bad as it sounds, sometimes dealing with the devil you know is the only alternative.

That's what I've been saying to many here who trash-talk America for having dealings with that regime.  Nation-states have always done the expedient thing when it is too difficult or costly to take a moral stance.  It isn't noble, it's just the way things are.

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RoofGardener

Hmm.. the article proposes that Iran is far more of a threat to the USA than Saudi Arabia. 

To which I can only say... how many Iranians hijacked planes on 9/11 ? How many Iranians attempted to bomb LA Airport ? How many Iranians blew up the US Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya ? How many Iranians where involved in the attack on the USS Cole ? 

Oh gosh... none. They where all Saudi Arabians ! 

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Golden Duck
44 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. the article proposes that Iran is far more of a threat to the USA than Saudi Arabia. 

To which I can only say... how many Iranians hijacked planes on 9/11 ? How many Iranians attempted to bomb LA Airport ? How many Iranians blew up the US Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya ? How many Iranians where involved in the attack on the USS Cole ? 

Oh gosh... none. They where all Saudi Arabians ! 

it all just sounds like the USS Pueblo and Deep Sea 129 again.

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ExpandMyMind
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. the article proposes that Iran is far more of a threat to the USA than Saudi Arabia. 

To which I can only say... how many Iranians hijacked planes on 9/11 ? How many Iranians attempted to bomb LA Airport ? How many Iranians blew up the US Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya ? How many Iranians where involved in the attack on the USS Cole ? 

Oh gosh... none. They where all Saudi Arabians ! 

Holy Mother of God. I actually agree with Roof on something regarding the Middle East.

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RoofGardener
30 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Holy Mother of God. I actually agree with Roof on something regarding the Middle East.

Well that's just GOT to be some sort of administrative error ? :o 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
8 hours ago, and then said:

That's what I've been saying to many here who trash-talk America for having dealings with that regime.  Nation-states have always done the expedient thing when it is too difficult or costly to take a moral stance.  It isn't noble, it's just the way things are.

Hey, you know my politics in the ME and I would surely say that of course we deal with people we don't like. The Americans and Truman didn't like Stalin in WWII but the US allied with USSR. 

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Sir Smoke aLot

The end justifies the means.

I can only assume that, based on essence of realpolitik, National Socialists in Germany better known as Nazi's... They had the highest moral standard in history.

From the article : ''When Ayatollah Khomeini’s forces seemed poised to overrun Iraq in the mid-1980s, we provided information to Saddam Hussein to prevent an Iranian victory. Nobody was under the illusion that Stalin or Saddam shared our morals, but Hitler and Khomeini were worse, so we chose to work with bad actors to fight worse ones.''

Just wow! I think of printing this and placing it in a shiny frame at wall in my workroom.

Another quote : ''Iran has spent the past several months demonstrating that it poses the greatest threat to American interests in the Middle East and beyond. In addition to sabotaging and seizing oil tankers in the Persian Gulf, it has left its fingerprints on virtually every conflict that concerns us: Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, and even Central and South America, especially Venezuela. Working with Saudi Arabia to defeat Iran and Iranian proxies is smart policy, even if many believe that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman (MbS) is a barbarian. ''

a). Iran seized oil tankers and sabotaged them. Jet article fails to mention that smugglers were in some of those tankers... Devil is in the details, so they say.

b). Iranian fingerprint in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen and EVEN :D Central and South America - Syria had target mark over it not only since 2011 but in time of Assad's father, right after revolution. Actually, Syria and Egypt were largest obstacle for Israel, that colonial project ( Herzl, ''something colonial'' ). Lebanon. Lebanon was center of entertainment and friendly harbor for US navy for decades. Until Israel invaded it in order to gain Letani river (which was described as being most important asset for the future of State of Israel (both Ben Gurion and earlier Zionist leading figures acknowledged this). Iraq, after US intervention and years of military oppression - Iraq was crowded with radical elements and such situation gave birth to isis. What's interesting is that Iraq was not on friendly terms with Iran prior to that. It was after Iranians assisted Iraq from day 1 of isis fight that governments started to cooperate on larger scale. Same situation was seen in Syria in Al Bukamal, bordering area with Iraq where they joined forces at the border. All result of interventions in the region and such miscalculations by US have lead to Beirut - Damascus - Tehran highway with connections to Baghdad becoming reality. Yemen, well it's even more absurd accusation. Yemen is encircled. Especially when USA was assisting SA and UAE with surveillance. If Iran managed to smuggle weapons in Yemen... Implications are clear.

c). working with SA to defeat Iran and Iranian proxies is political suicide. But, if we agree that Machiavellian means are actually of high moral standards... People can be made to believe anything. But that doesn't make it right.

So now Iran is also managed to get involved in Venezuela. Well, that's partly true. Iran has official connections with Venezuela and their ministers have traveled in Venezuela in time of crisis there. Is Trump responsible for Saudi atrocities in Yemen because he visited SA in time of war? 

Difference between Iranian visit to Venezuela and US visit to SA is in billions of $ in arms sales.

I do not jet know what this article is. A joke or fruit from propaganda tree. Hard to decide.

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Phaeton80
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, and then said:

That's what I've been saying to many here who trash-talk America for having dealings with that regime.  Nation-states have always done the expedient thing when it is too difficult or costly to take a moral stance.  It isn't noble, it's just the way things are.

*insert rolling eyes smiley here*

We 'trash talk America' (read: criticize America) when 'Americans' blame the whole of Islam for any- and everything related to terror / ISIS while your nation is the closest ally of the real, main source of that very Sunni terrorism.. and while they have lead coalition after coalition in deceitful ME wars creating a prime cultivation ground for thesame Wahhabi terrorists. 

And we 'trash talk America' when thesame is targetting yet another ME nation, this time Shia Iran, based on it  'being one of the main supporters of terrorism in the ME', which is abject nonsense, and extremely hypocritical - given your own 'unwaverable' relations with the Saudi regime.

Edited by Phaeton80
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and then
9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Oh gosh... none. They where all Saudi Arabians ! 

True.  Perhaps you can cite some links where SA has threatened publicly to destroy America or where they have spent tens of billions to create a secret nuke program?  I'd say the article's statement about relative danger is spot on.  SA is a disgusting, tribal Islamic hellhole and I wouldn't shed a tear if they were ended today.  Iran's plans are there for any to see that WANT to see.  This thread wasn't created to argue over which entity deserves support.  It was created to discuss the reality of why America - and nearly every other nation on the planet, does business with SA.  Those who want to turn it into me supporting SA are wasting their time being fools.  But hey, roll on...

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and then
33 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

when 'Americans' blame the whole of Islam for any- and everything related to terror

As usual, you simply lie and make things up from that hateful processor you call a brain.  I won't bother to answer that charge again because everyone here who knows you, by now know what a feckin liar you are.   Go ahead and "hold forth".  Maybe you'll convince someone who isn't already in the bag for that evil flavor of your sainted religion.

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Phaeton80
10 minutes ago, and then said:

As usual, you simply lie and make things up from that hateful processor you call a brain.  I won't bother to answer that charge again because everyone here who knows you, by now know what a feckin liar you are.   Go ahead and "hold forth".  Maybe you'll convince someone who isn't already in the bag for that evil flavor of your sainted religion.

:lol:

I can only laugh at that, inverted one. The time I took your words seriously is far, far behind us.

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susieice
4 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Hey, you know my politics in the ME and I would surely say that of course we deal with people we don't like. The Americans and Truman didn't like Stalin in WWII but the US allied with USSR. 

The same for Winston Churchill. Not to quote exactly but he remarked about Hitler invading Hell and he'd stick up for the devil.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
4 hours ago, and then said:

or where they have spent tens of billions to create a secret nuke program?

SA announced rather recently (2 months?) that they will now pursue the nuclear bomb. And they don't have to make it a secret project. obviously.It seems they were unhappy with Iran going back to enrichment.

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Setton
17 hours ago, and then said:

True.  Perhaps you can cite some links where SA has threatened publicly to destroy America or where they have spent tens of billions to create a secret nuke program?  I'd say the article's statement about relative danger is spot on.  SA is a disgusting, tribal Islamic hellhole and I wouldn't shed a tear if they were ended today.  Iran's plans are there for any to see that WANT to see.  .

So the evidence is only there for those who already want to see it? 

Gosh, well doesn't that explain so much. 

Have you heard of confirmation bias? 

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RoofGardener
48 minutes ago, Setton said:

So the evidence is only there for those who already want to see it? 

Gosh, well doesn't that explain so much. 

Have you heard of confirmation bias? 

Oh come on @Setton. And Then is quite correct, and you know it !

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.AKUMA.
On 24/07/2019 at 8:35 AM, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. the article proposes that Iran is far more of a threat to the USA than Saudi Arabia. 

To which I can only say... how many Iranians hijacked planes on 9/11 ? How many Iranians attempted to bomb LA Airport ? How many Iranians blew up the US Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya ? How many Iranians where involved in the attack on the USS Cole ? 

Oh gosh... none. They where all Saudi Arabians ! 

You hit the nail on the head with that one, but i feel there is a far bigger political game being played here and The Saudis unfortunately are much easier to influence for the US.

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Setton
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Oh come on @Setton. And Then is quite correct, and you know it !

Odd then that he's completely failed to provide any evidence despite repeated requests. 

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RoofGardener
16 minutes ago, Setton said:

Odd then that he's completely failed to provide any evidence despite repeated requests. 

Umm.... evidence of what ? You haven't requested any evidence. At least I see no evidence of a request for evidence in this thread ?

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Setton
1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm.... evidence of what ? You haven't requested any evidence. At least I see no evidence of a request for evidence in this thread ?

He continuously claims that there is evidence the Iranians have been developing nuclear weapons while the JCPOA is in force. When pressed, he only has one source (Israeli) and even that he won't produce. This has been repeated in several other threads. 

Now in this thread, he says the proof is only there for those who want to see it. Such 'proof' is no proof at all, simply confirmation bias. And he still hasn't even produced that! 

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RoofGardener
2 minutes ago, Setton said:

He continuously claims that there is evidence the Iranians have been developing nuclear weapons while the JCPOA is in force. When pressed, he only has one source (Israeli) and even that he won't produce. This has been repeated in several other threads. 

Now in this thread, he says the proof is only there for those who want to see it. Such 'proof' is no proof at all, simply confirmation bias. And he still hasn't even produced that! 

He was referring to Iran's plans when he made that statement, not that Iran had nuclear weapons. And Iran HAS made its stragic goals quite clear: the destruction of Israel,  the spreading of Islam to the entire world, and the destruction of all other governmental systems; to be replaced by Sharia. Anyone who denies that is blind indeed ! 

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Setton
5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

He was referring to Iran's plans when he made that statement, not that Iran had nuclear weapons.

And yet he mentioned that right before his ridiculous comment... 

How about you let the man speak for himself? We could all do with a laugh. 

Quote

And Iran HAS made its stragic goals quite clear: the destruction of Israel,  the spreading of Islam to the entire world, and the destruction of all other governmental systems; to be replaced by Sharia. Anyone who denies that is blind indeed ! 

And again, I'm sure you can support this...? 

Beyond rhetoric, of course. Because by that measure, the US intends to flatten North Korea with 'fire and fury', was it? 

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RoofGardener
8 minutes ago, Setton said:

And again, I'm sure you can support this...? 

 

You're kidding right ? You want me to post links to Iran's bellicose statements ? I mean.. seriously ? You're not aware of them - historically - already ? 

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Setton
Just now, RoofGardener said:

You're kidding right ? You want me to post links to Iran's bellicose statements ? I mean.. seriously ? You're not aware of them - historically - already ? 

No... as I just said, I want you to back it up with more than just empty rhetoric. I want you to show the actions Iran has taken that demonstrate these intentions. 

For one, its curious that a country hell bent on replacing all other forms of government with Sharia law doesn't even strictly enforce it in its own country, don't you think? 

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