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Black Red Devil

Beneath troubled waters

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Black Red Devil
Posted (edited)

Natural gas: an omnipresent factor in the occupation of Palestine Context of the Israeli gas sector: illegal naval blockade

Under the “Oslo Accords between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Palestinians should have access to an area covering 20 nautical miles (37 kilometres) from the Gaza shore for fishing, recreation and economic activity. This includes the use of natural resources, including gas reserves. Despite having agreed to the 20-nautical mile limit, Israel has increasingly imposed movement restrictions in the maritime area belonging to the Gaza Strip since 2000, physically barring Palestinians from accessing their natural gas and a large part of their fishing waters. Since 3 January 2009, the Israeli navy has officially enforced a naval blockade on the Gaza Strip, under which it which it has imposed varying parameters of movement restrictions. The blockade is characterised by systematic attacks against Palestinian fishermen by the Israeli navy, including shooting with live bullets, unlawful arrests and the confiscation of fishing boats and equipment.

link

Edited by Saru
Trimmed for length - please try to avoid quoting too much text
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Black Red Devil
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In 1967, when Israel occupied the Palestinian territory, it replaced existing energy supply agreements for the territory with a single concession to IEC. This concession gave state-owned IEC full control over the Palestinian electricity grid, effectively treating the Palestinian people in the occupied territory as a captive market for the company; 92% of electrical energy in the Gaza Strip and West Bank is purchased from IEC.

IEC’s practice fits within a larger pattern, also identified by the United Nations, of using the occupied Palestinian territory as a captive market for exports from Israel. Over the years, the Palestinian Authority has built up a considerable amount of debt to IEC (almost US$530 million), at least partially because of Israeli-imposed limitations on fuel imports to the Gaza Strip (used for power generation), repeated Israeli airstrikes targeting Gaza’s power plant, and being barred from developing new energy supplies.

So, in summary, what Israel is doing is blockading Palestinians from exploiting their fishing and natural gas supplies, creating unemployment and forcing Palestinians to rely on humanitarian aid and now we have a report they're actually stealing from Palestinian gas reserves while supplying them with 92% of energy that's they have to pay back which has caused a massive debt of US$530 million to date.

LOL, is this the theft of the millenium or what?!! :lol:

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23 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

So, in summary, what Israel is doing is blockading Palestinians from exploiting their fishing and natural gas supplies, creating unemployment and forcing Palestinians to rely on humanitarian aid and now we have a report they're actually stealing from Palestinian gas reserves while supplying them with 92% of energy that's they have to pay back which has caused a massive debt of US$530 million to date.

LOL, is this the theft of the millenium or what?!!

I think Israel should agree to pay for any Palestinian resources that Israel takes just as soon as the Palestinians stop trying to kill them and agree to a peace deal.  If Israel really is taking gas from a field that belongs to the Palestinians then I'd say, yeah, that's theft.  As to them crying about the naval blockade interfering with their fishing, them's the breaks when you try to import weapons to kill Jews.  It's a pretty simple cause and effect.  Stop trying to kill Jews and the blockade should go away.  Not too difficult to figure that one.

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Black Red Devil
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, and then said:

I think Israel should agree to pay for any Palestinian resources that Israel takes just as soon as the Palestinians stop trying to kill them and agree to a peace deal.  If Israel really is taking gas from a field that belongs to the Palestinians then I'd say, yeah, that's theft.  As to them crying about the naval blockade interfering with their fishing, them's the breaks when you try to import weapons to kill Jews.  It's a pretty simple cause and effect.  Stop trying to kill Jews and the blockade should go away.  Not too difficult to figure that one.

How many times do you have to be told that Netanyahu isn't interested in a peace deal with the Palestinians?  Why would he when he can steal their land and natural resources and get away with it because any attempt by the international community to impose sanctions on Israel is vetoed by the US? 

Israel is an occupying power and as such they should be providing humanitarian aid and livable provisions, instead they're making the Palestinians pay for their energy supply which they steal from their reserves.  If they're not an occupying force they shouldn't be blockading or impeding anything from happening to and from Palestinian borders.  It's unbelievable what they get away with and this type of behavior is condoned by the US Govt who then sends ships around the Strait of Hormuz to monitor if Iran is 'illegally' forcing naval blockades.  You couldn't make this stuff up.

Edited by Black Red Devil
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Earl.Of.Trumps

Israel rapes who Israel wants to rape.  And where is the useless UN on all of this??

And people actually wonder why many people in the ME want to annihilate Israel. 

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Black Red Devil
2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Israel rapes who Israel wants to rape.  And where is the useless UN on all of this??

And people actually wonder why many people in the ME want to annihilate Israel. 

The UN is a toothless tiger but they can't do anything if Resolutions are vetoed by one of THE permanent members (US, China, Russia, France, UK).

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3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

How many times do you have to be told that Netanyahu isn't interested in a peace deal with the Palestinians?

Israel is FAR from being the only nation to claim the spoils of a war that was waged against them.  That said, when their former enemies, Egypt and Jordan negotiated an agreement, Israel gave many concessions.  Neither the Syrians nor the Palestinians have attempted this course.  Also, it takes a real fool or a supporter of Palestinians against Israel to ignore the rhetoric coming from the Palestinian leaders.  The behavior of the media against Trump actually has a precedent of sorts.  They've been ignoring plain statements by Palestinian leaders IN ARABIC, for years.  The excuse that people use to ignore media that DO highlight those statements of endless hatred and promises to fight until the Jews are gone or dead is that they aren't sourced in enough outlets.  It's kind of a self-fulfilling loop.  

The reality, whether you ever accept it or not, is that Israel is never going to be pushed off that land completely.  If the Palestinian leaders were interested in improving the lives of their people they would negotiate an end to hostilities but they obviously won't do this.  Their supporters encourage that behavior and the cycle continues.  It will eventually lead to a catastrophic war and your (and others) stance on the topic tell me that you'd accept that toll if there was a chance to end Israel.  

Finally, Olmert agreed to over 90% of Arafat's demands and he walked away and started shooting again.  Netanyahu may not want to do a deal but if Trump's deal is pushed on him he may well have no choice.  We'll just see how it all unfolds.  Until then, the Palestinians can rage all they like but they will never have peace until they learn to compromise.

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, and then said:

Israel is FAR from being the only nation to claim the spoils of a war that was waged against them.  That said, when their former enemies, Egypt and Jordan negotiated an agreement, Israel gave many concessions.  Neither the Syrians nor the Palestinians have attempted this course.  Also, it takes a real fool or a supporter of Palestinians against Israel to ignore the rhetoric coming from the Palestinian leaders.  The behavior of the media against Trump actually has a precedent of sorts.  They've been ignoring plain statements by Palestinian leaders IN ARABIC, for years.  The excuse that people use to ignore media that DO highlight those statements of endless hatred and promises to fight until the Jews are gone or dead is that they aren't sourced in enough outlets.  It's kind of a self-fulfilling loop.  

The reality, whether you ever accept it or not, is that Israel is never going to be pushed off that land completely.  If the Palestinian leaders were interested in improving the lives of their people they would negotiate an end to hostilities but they obviously won't do this.  Their supporters encourage that behavior and the cycle continues.  It will eventually lead to a catastrophic war and your (and others) stance on the topic tell me that you'd accept that toll if there was a chance to end Israel.  

Finally, Olmert agreed to over 90% of Arafat's demands and he walked away and started shooting again.  Netanyahu may not want to do a deal but if Trump's deal is pushed on him he may well have no choice.  We'll just see how it all unfolds.  Until then, the Palestinians can rage all they like but they will never have peace until they learn to compromise.

Wow, someone has to be truly pigheaded obtuse to not see the evidence.  What do the Palestinians have to compromise with?  Israel has occupied most of their land in the West Bank and has walls limiting the movement of the Palestinian population.  In Gaza there is a blockade limiting and stealing their resources.  There's an illegal occupation that's sending their State bankrupt and you expect them to further compromise. LMFAO.  Israel wouldn't even accept a compromise because they'd have nothing to gain from one.  A Zionist like Netanyahu isn't interested in a two State solution because he would have to share territory he believes belongs to Israel.  In fact the Zionist aim is for a Jewish State, not a two State solution.  The PA has been open to negotiations and the two state solution, Israel and specifically Netanyahu, hasn't.  That's the reality and here we have further evidence that they are even frauding the Palestinians of their natural resources and yet, in all of this you can still see the Palestinians of being in the wrong.  Amazing.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

The PA has been open to negotiations and the two state solution

What are you willing to see happen to remove Israel from that land?  That's the real question here.  This is a classic unstoppable force versus immovable object situation.

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Black Red Devil
14 minutes ago, and then said:

What are you willing to see happen to remove Israel from that land?  That's the real question here.  This is a classic unstoppable force versus immovable object situation.

The PA isn't Hamas and it's the only recognised Palestinian authority.  I think you've flogged the Hamas horse long enough.

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1 minute ago, Black Red Devil said:

The PA isn't Hamas and it's the only recognised Palestinian authority.  I think you've flogged the Hamas horse long enough.

No, the PA is run by Abbas, yes?  You do realize that he has refused to take part in the negotiations for a peace deal, right?  

I'll tell you what, I'll cede every point about a % of Jews (not a majority, IMO) in Israel that do not want any agreement and we'll say they want ALL the land.  What would you require of Israel if you could force it to happen?  I don't believe you would try to push them out of that land if you expected millions of dead so what would you do?  Don't you think negotiations are the only way out?

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Black Red Devil
4 minutes ago, and then said:

No, the PA is run by Abbas, yes?  You do realize that he has refused to take part in the negotiations for a peace deal, right? 

And why is that?  Because Trump decided to break away from being a mediator and started taking sides.

9 minutes ago, and then said:

I'll tell you what, I'll cede every point about a % of Jews (not a majority, IMO) in Israel that do not want any agreement and we'll say they want ALL the land.  What would you require of Israel if you could force it to happen?  I don't believe you would try to push them out of that land if you expected millions of dead so what would you do?  Don't you think negotiations are the only way out?

Negotiations ARE the way out.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
5 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

What do the Palestinians have to compromise with?

And more importantly, why is there even need for negotiations when the law is crystal clear? 

If laws are not enforced - or worse, enforced selectively, chaos will result. And we have plenty of that in the ME right now.

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RoofGardener
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

So, in summary, what Israel is doing is blockading Palestinians from exploiting their fishing and natural gas supplies, creating unemployment and forcing Palestinians to rely on humanitarian aid and now we have a report they're actually stealing from Palestinian gas reserves while supplying them with 92% of energy that's they have to pay back which has caused a massive debt of US$530 million to date.

LOL, is this the theft of the millenium or what?!! :lol:

Ahhhh.. yes BRD ..and, at the same time.. no. 

Firstly, the PLO betrayed the Oslo accords even before they started (by lying in the preamble 'letters of recognition). So it seems odd to cite them in defense of "the Palestinians". The PLO have subsequently publicly  rejected and abrogated the Accords. 

 However, that doesn't really matter in this case. 

You see, what Israeli is blockading is NOT "the Palestinians". It is blockading HAMAS. (who had frequently - it should be noted - used "fishing vessels" to smuggle weapons into Gaza). 

HAMAS do NOT represent "the Palestinians" in international law; that honour goes to the PLO. 

Edited by RoofGardener
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Sir Smoke aLot
15 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

So, in summary, what Israel is doing is blockading Palestinians from exploiting their fishing and natural gas supplies, creating unemployment and forcing Palestinians to rely on humanitarian aid and now we have a report they're actually stealing from Palestinian gas reserves while supplying them with 92% of energy that's they have to pay back which has caused a massive debt of US$530 million to date.

LOL, is this the theft of the millenium or what?!! :lol:

Not to mention enormous wealth in Dead Sea which is mostly on West Bank coast and Jordan with some areas which belong to Israel.

Quote from Wiki : 

''The Palestinian Dead Sea Coast is about 40 kilometres (25 miles) long. The Palestinian economy is unable to benefit from Dead Sea chemicals due to restricted access, permit issues and the uncertainties of the investment climate.[46] The World Bank estimates that a Palestinian Dead Sea chemicals industry could generate $918M incremental value added per year, "almost equivalent to the contribution of the entire manufacturing sector of Palestinian territories today".[46]''

LINK to Wikipedia page.

Yes. Theft of millennium. I knew that there are restrictions for fishing but never knew that there are gas reserves there. I was only aware of disputes with Lebanon and Cyprus over gas reserves. Gaza could feed it self if it was allowed to as much as West Bank could.

Israel has sacrificed Palestinian future for it's own security. Now that's luxury unique to them.

From the document : 

''It has been argued that extraction of gas from the Noa field could lead to draining gas from the Palestinian Border Field. Unilateral extraction would violate the Palestinian population’s sovereignty over its natural resources, and raise concerns regarding the gas companies’ involvement in the act of pillaging, and constitute a violation of Israel’s duty as an Occupying Power to protect immoveable property of the occupied State.'' * 92

92 : Article 55 of the Hague Regulations: “The occupying State shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct.”

It worked well on Sinai. No reason it won't work fine here. Thanks for this.

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Sir Smoke aLot
10 hours ago, and then said:

That said, when their former enemies, Egypt and Jordan negotiated an agreement, Israel gave many concessions. 

Of course it did give 'concessions'. What do you think how much oil was extracted from Sinai while it was occupied for like 15 years? Some Israelis might say that it was fair deal :D

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Black Red Devil
8 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

 

You see, what Israeli is blockading is NOT "the Palestinians". It is blockading HAMAS. (who had frequently - it should be noted - used "fishing vessels" to smuggle weapons into Gaza). 

HAMAS do NOT represent "the Palestinians" in international law; that honour goes to the PLO. 

As I said to andthen, this horse has been flogged long enough.  The PA is the only Palestinian authority the UN recognises and Israel is breaching international law against the Palestinians.  As an occupying force they are also reneging on their responsibilities as mentioned in the link and by SSaL.  If they aren't an occupying force they are invading and stealing from Palestinian territory, including land in the West Bank.  The only reason the world hasn't been able to do anything about this is because the US has vetoed every resolution to act against Israel. Then people get irritated when they see Palestinians with placards saying 'Death to America'.

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Sir Smoke aLot
On 7/29/2019 at 1:29 AM, Black Red Devil said:

As I said to andthen, this horse has been flogged long enough.  The PA is the only Palestinian authority the UN recognises and Israel is breaching international law against the Palestinians.  As an occupying force they are also reneging on their responsibilities as mentioned in the link and by SSaL.  If they aren't an occupying force they are invading and stealing from Palestinian territory, including land in the West Bank.  The only reason the world hasn't been able to do anything about this is because the US has vetoed every resolution to act against Israel. Then people get irritated when they see Palestinians with placards saying 'Death to America'.

Our big supporters of international law often say how Hamas was trying to smuggle weapons in order to make apology for Israeli actions which undermine international law.

It doesn't concern them that it's legally and morally OK to fight occupation and aggression, there are two ways of doing that. One way is to fight in non violent way (which did not bring anything to Palestinian people - West Bank is living proof).

Other way is armed resistance.

Resistance has to be organized and belong to a Party in the conflict. OK Hamas fits this.

It has right to operate in or outside of their own territory, even if this territory is occupied.

Instead of crying people need to learn to live with consequences of their actions.

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On 7/28/2019 at 9:26 AM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

And more importantly, why is there even need for negotiations when the law is crystal clear? 

If laws are not enforced - or worse, enforced selectively, chaos will result. And we have plenty of that in the ME right now.

What would your opinion be if shortly after the law was imposed and the Palestinians consolidated their return, they began behaving again, exactly as they are behaving today?  Rockets, bombs, stabbings, you know, the usual.  What then?

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2 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Instead of crying people need to learn to live with consequences of their actions.

We finally agree.  See post number 19

 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
3 hours ago, and then said:

What would your opinion be if shortly after the law was imposed and the Palestinians consolidated their return, they began behaving again, exactly as they are behaving today?  Rockets, bombs, stabbings, you know, the usual.  What then?

The short of it... UN INTERVENTION.  Get those slack jawed bastids in there and put up a wall of defense between the two. 

but between you men and the wall, and then, it's never going to happen that Israel will respect the right of return. that is the key stumbling block in negotiations when Israel offers land and peace. Why the Israeli's care so much about which Palestinians live on Palestinian land  is beyond me but they are sworn to it. It won't happen *peacefully*. God I wish it could.

 

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Sir Smoke aLot
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, and then said:

We finally agree.  See post number 19

 

But that was rather silly response. Palestinians are reacting to aggression. That's why Israeli apologists have to learn to live with consequences of Israeli actions.

That was not my point and you simply avoid to answer, nothing new.

History of terrorism against native population is belonging to Zionists, not to Palestinian people. That is a fact. Not debatable.

 

[edit] to add: again we see one simple tactic... This topic is related to theft of other people's resources off coast and elsewhere in occupied Palestinian lands. By playing ''Hamas terror'' card subject gets distracted from it's essence, jet again.

It's always the case with people who promote Hasbara. They do not go into fair discussions.

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot
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RoofGardener

I think it is outrageous that Israel is stealing gas from Gazan territorial waters. 

Oh.. wait.. they aren't. The major fields are all in Israeli international waters. 

Well, SOME fields - rather small ones, but fields nontheless - are in "Palestinian" waters. Or are they ? 

The waters in question are based around the Gaza Strip. That is controlled by HAMAS. Most nations don't recognise HAMAS as being the legitimate government of the Palestinians. So where does that leave the concept of 'national territorial waters' ? 

Furthermore, these "territorial waters" where defined by the Oslo Accords. But the PLO abrogated those accords when it refused to abide by the Letters of Recognition. It has since publicly disavowed Oslo. So it can hardly then use the Accords to stake a claim on ANYTHING. 

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On 7/28/2019 at 6:29 PM, Black Red Devil said:

The PA is the only Palestinian authority the UN recognises and Israel is breaching international law against the Palestinians.

As long as the Hamas and the PA BOTH control territory from which death is dealt against Israelis, they BOTH matter in the discussion.  What good is it to come to an agreement with a next-door neighbor who wants to kill you, when his brother on the other side is going to continue to try?  I can say the same thing about "international law".  Those agreements were decided by the UN, I assume?  A body that is comprised of a majority of nations that are hell-bent on removing Israel (of any size) from the world map?  

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3 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

That's why Israeli apologists have to learn to live with consequences of Israeli actions.

Just as supporters of Palestinians have to swallow the humiliation of what happens to obsessed, warmongering Arabs who prefer killing Jews to having a decent life, even for their children.  The cycle will continue until they give up their demand for the Jews to be gone from the land.  That just isn't going to happen.

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