Beneath troubled waters

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

Sadly I don't think that is correct, @Earl.Of.Trumps.

Firstly, to quote ISIS, ... "We don't hate you because you have invaded our lands. We hate you because you are not Muslim". The Koran itself says something like ".. do not take friends among the unbelievers". 

This is fine, and of course, ISIS does not speak for all Muslims. And RG, what do you think ISIS thinks of "the Zionist entity" - the "occupier"?
You should try to understand that the explosion that the Muslim faith experienced, including a revisit to Sharia Law,  was all based on Israel - with the Christian West's help, conducting a Muslim purge in the Levant and of the West (USA UK FRANCE) leveraging leaders of ME countries to be Israel tolerant. 

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

Secondly.. which 10 countries do you have in mind ? We (as in, the UK) already has friendly relations with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE, and the gulf states. Who would you have anticipated becoming "allies" ? 

Firstly, the countries you list would be elated at the US standing up to Israel. Beyond that, the US and UK would immediately get accolades from Syria, Iran, Iraq (people), Qatar, Libya, Bahrain, Oman, and others, and if you really want to get to it, China would be happy and I dare say many Asian countries would be too. Regardless of our good standing with, say - Saudi Arabia, they would be tickled pink at the prospect. They don't like the occupiers, but they tolerate them, as do many of our allies.

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

I'm a bit confused... are you referring to the "bitterness" of the Palestinians, or of the surrounding muslim nations ?

Palestinians mostly, but yes, you can include other nations that suffered too, mostly because they were forced to take in many refugees that they cannot afford. It's an ugly situation over there, a real open sore. And there is no relief in sight. Not yet. But they persevere to improve their lives, of course.

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

In the former case, the PLO could have had their own nations 50 years ago, but they deliberately embarked on a strategy of intransigence and self-inflicted victimhood. (consider - as an illustration - how many palestinian "refugees" have been consigned to virtual imprisonment in refugee camps for 60+ years...... IN PALESTINE. (Gaza and the West Bank). 

Ahhhh. So we're off to blaming the victim. Brilliant. RG, the Palestinians should NOT have to jump through hoops to gain their freedom. The UN should have stepped in Long ago. 

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

Can I blame the Israeli's ? Well.. yes. They had the audacity to create a non-muslim nation in muslim-conquered land. That is an unforgivable sin. 

Cannot tell if you are being sarcastic here, but yes, throwing people out of your land so you can establish a Jewish califate is every bit as wrong as ISIS doing same to Christians to establish their califate. it is WRONG. How would it be for America to establish a Christian nation and throw people of other faiths out of the country? The world should and would be in an uproar. Discrimination of the most vile kind. I bet even and then would agree with that.

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

Israel has done nothing to offend its surrounding countries other than to exist.

WHAT?? Come on, RG. the continued rape of innocent men women and children, butchering them. Please.

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

Granted, it invaded Egypt and Syria, but immediately offered peace terms and a return of land. Egypt accepted this, and the two countries have a peaceful relationship.

True, but again, you look  only at the diplomatic angle. The Egyptian people can't stand Israel. Nobody in the ME can. Look at how many countries do not recognize Israel, boycott them and won't allow Israeli's to buy land in their country. Israel has boxed itself in. They are hated on all fronts.

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

Syria didn't, and remained at war with Israel, but that was THEIR choice. You might regard the Palestinians (or rather, the PLO) wanting "revenge", but what possible motive would any of the surrounding countries for revenge ? 

Syria should be at war. If I recall correctly, the French resistance did too. Perhaps Israel could end it by giving back the land they stole from Syria. And again, after Israel steals the land, they say "Peace, we want peace", and you can bet your ass that giving the land back for peace is never going to happen. What Israel is saying is, "we have your land, we are not giving it back, so please stop bothering us". "Peace", those frauds those phonies, nobody attacked more countries in the ME in the last 100 years than those Nazis.

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

A "life for the Palestinians" ? They've been trying this tactic for 60+ years, and it has merely resulted in deaths to the Palestinians. There is no need for a "helpless painful death". The Palestinians could have had their own country at any stage over the last 60+ years. And a very prosperous country to boot. They chose death instead. 

I'm sure when they get what they want in their own terms, they will accept that. The French never bargained for peace with Hitler, did they? Look at all the French that died! Ohmygod!! crazy people. Much better to lay your arms down and die under "peaceful" submission.

On 8/15/2019 at 4:29 AM, RoofGardener said:

As for the American GI's .. well.. most soldiers want peace. So I would imagine a negotiated surrender of the Germans would have been VERY much on their minds. 

You know, I had an Uncle that was a marine did the island hopping in the pacific, in the Marines bid to get to Japan. He was hit in the head and taken home. In fact, my mother was sent to San Francisco to get him. Anyway, he told me twice (when we were sufficiently "oiled") that the one regret he had in life was that he could not land on Japan and fight hand-to-hand combat. Some other soldiers I have heard say, regretted the bomb being dropped because it deprived them of their coveted quest of doing it *their* way.  War is a funny thing, RG.

good posting, RG

[RoofGardener]

On 8/16/2019 at 3:19 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

This is fine, and of course, ISIS does not speak for all Muslims. And RG, what do you think ISIS thinks of "the Zionist entity" - the "occupier"?
You should try to understand that the explosion that the Muslim faith experienced, including a revisit to Sharia Law,  was all based on Israel - with the Christian West's help, conducting a Muslim purge in the Levant and of the West (USA UK FRANCE) leveraging leaders of ME countries to be Israel tolerant.

Yes, I WAS being slightly mischeivous in quoting ISIS, but it is worth noting that the quote in question ... ".. we hate you because you are not muslims..", is sanctioned by both the Koran and the authenticated Hadiths in Sunni theology. As for the "explosion that the muslim faith experienced".. that was mostly down to disillusionment with the secular leaders that emerged in the post-colonial period, and the failure of pan-Arabism. It mostly started in the late 60's and 70's. There is an interesting Wiki article about this ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival#Contemporary_revivalism

Israel is often used as a rallying cry, but this is pure politics rather than any genuine feeling of support for the Palestinians. Indeed, Palestinians are treated with contempt in most of the Arab world. 

On 8/16/2019 at 3:19 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Palestinians mostly, but yes, you can include other nations that suffered too, mostly because they were forced to take in many refugees that they cannot afford. It's an ugly situation over there, a real open sore. And there is no relief in sight. Not yet. But they persevere to improve their lives, of course.

Where they really ? There where about 700,000 refugees in the original "Nakba". Many of these ended up in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Some went to Jordan and Syria, but the numbers where in the tens of thousands. Hardly a catastrophic burden, especially if rich Arab nations helped out. Except... they didn't. Did you know that the Arab League instructed all Arab states NOT to grant Palestinians citizenship ? In Saudi Arabia, a law was passed in 2004 allowing all foreigners - who had lived in the Kingdom for 10 years - to apply for citizenship ? EXCEPT for Palestinians. In Jordan, a large number of Palesteinians where granted Jordanian citizenship, arising from Jordans annexation of the West Bank up until 1967. These 'citizens' are now being stripped of their Jordanian citizenship - about 40,000 so far, and climbing. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees#Refugee_statistics

So much, then, for Arab support for "The Palestinians". 

On 8/16/2019 at 3:19 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Ahhhh. So we're off to blaming the victim. Brilliant. RG, the Palestinians should NOT have to jump through hoops to gain their freedom. The UN should have stepped in Long ago. 

I'd agree. However, far from "jumping through hoops", the PLO has rejected each and every attempt at peace. For the simple reason that they do not WANT peace. They want the destruction of Israel. 

 

On 8/16/2019 at 3:19 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

WHAT?? Come on, RG. the continued rape of innocent men women and children, butchering them. Please.

You're seriously suggesting that Israel has butchered and raped the citizens of surrounding countries ? Israel has never entered Jordanian territory. It entered the Sinai - then occupied by Egypt - and the Golan Heights (then Syrian territory). Can you give me any examples of rape and butchery ? I don't think you can ? 

On 8/16/2019 at 3:19 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Syria should be at war. If I recall correctly, the French resistance did too. Perhaps Israel could end it by giving back the land they stole from Syria. And again, after Israel steals the land, they say "Peace, we want peace", and you can bet your ass that giving the land back for peace is never going to happen. What Israel is saying is, "we have your land, we are not giving it back, so please stop bothering us". "Peace", those frauds those phonies, nobody attacked more countries in the ME in the last 100 years than those Nazis

Israel has FREQUENTLY offered to return the Golan Heights in return for a normalisation of relations with Syria. Syria has consistently refused, and maintained its state of war against Israel. It is utterly without precedent for a country that fought a defensive war to discuss return of territory when its opponent - the one that invaded - insists on maintaining that state of war. 

In regards "nobody attacked more countries"... umm.. I don't think that is true ? Israel has only "attacked" twice. Once in Egypt in 1967 as a pre-emptive strike against the Egyptian military buildup, and once in... umm. can't remember... into Lebannon to suppress attacks by Hezbollah. In contrast, we have the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq-Kuwait invasion, the Palestinian attack on Jordan, the Palestinian destruction of Lebannon, and .. gosh.. if we're going back 100 years.... all SORTS of nations vs the Ottoman Empire, and all SORTS of things during WW2. Then there was the Saudi civil war, and - most recently - the Saudi attacks against Yemen (aided by a whole bunch of Arab states). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East

On 8/16/2019 at 3:19 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I'm sure when they get what they want in their own terms, they will accept that. The French never bargained for peace with Hitler, did they?

Umm.. actually... yes they did. It was called Compiègne. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_of_22_June_1940 . I'm not sure how this relates to the current discussion, however ? 

On 8/16/2019 at 3:19 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

True, but again, you look  only at the diplomatic angle. The Egyptian people can't stand Israel. Nobody in the ME can. Look at how many countries do not recognize Israel, boycott them and won't allow Israeli's to buy land in their country. Israel has boxed itself in. They are hated on all fronts.

I doubt that most Egyptians care one way or the other. Ditto Jordanians, and most of the Arab peninsula. Most muslim countries adopt a pro-forma stance of supporting the Palestinians, and disliking Israel, but I really doubt that their citizens care one way or the other, except when whipped up on Hate Fridays in the mosques. 

 

On 8/16/2019 at 3:19 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

You know, I had an Uncle that was a marine did the island hopping in the pacific, in the Marines bid to get to Japan. He was hit in the head and taken home. In fact, my mother was sent to San Francisco to get him. Anyway, he told me twice (when we were sufficiently "oiled") that the one regret he had in life was that he could not land on Japan and fight hand-to-hand combat. Some other soldiers I have heard say, regretted the bomb being dropped because it deprived them of their coveted quest of doing it *their* way.  War is a funny thing, RG.

That's very interseting, EoT. And yes.. war IS a funny thing, in the darkest of ways. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by RoofGardener

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Hoo boy, this might get too big here.

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Yes, I WAS being slightly mischeivous in quoting ISIS, but it is worth noting that the quote in question ... ".. we hate you because you are not muslims..", is sanctioned by both the Koran and the authenticated Hadiths in Sunni theology. As for the "explosion that the muslim faith experienced".. that was mostly down to disillusionment with the secular leaders that emerged in the post-colonial period, and the failure of pan-Arabism. It mostly started in the late 60's and 70's. There is an interesting Wiki article about this ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_revival#Contemporary_revivalism

My sources say it was because of Islamist being under attack because of their religion. A perfect example is how it came to be that Fundamentalists ended up in power in Iran's revolution when the people don't really want a theocracy. But, they fundamentalists were being rounded up in Iran by the US established VEVAK and at the behest of the good old US of A and so, the fundamentalists were far more energized and *seized* power. I think the Wiki author is biassed, myself.

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Israel is often used as a rallying cry, but this is pure politics rather than any genuine feeling of support for the Palestinians. Indeed, Palestinians are treated with contempt in most of the Arab world. 

That's not true. The Egyptian people liked the Palestinians. The Jordanians disliked them perhaps. But they were not universally despised.

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Where they really ? There where about 700,000 refugees in the original "Nakba". Many of these ended up in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Some went to Jordan and Syria, but the numbers where in the tens of thousands. Hardly a catastrophic burden, especially if rich Arab nations helped out. Except... they didn't.

Right. The UN had to come to the aid. But again, all you are doing is not looking at the big picture and casting aspersions onto the victims. The Palestinians should not be in that situation to begin with. Let us not lose sight of that and let's also look at the cause of their plight.

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Did you know that the Arab League instructed all Arab states NOT to grant Palestinians citizenship ? In Saudi Arabia, a law was passed in 2004 allowing all foreigners - who had lived in the Kingdom for 10 years - to apply for citizenship ? EXCEPT for Palestinians. In Jordan, a large number of Palesteinians where granted Jordanian citizenship, arising from Jordans annexation of the West Bank up until 1967. These 'citizens' are now being stripped of their Jordanian citizenship - about 40,000 so far, and climbing. 

I see no  point in pursuing this. It sidesteps the real issues here.  Your information puts blame everywhere *except* on Israel and their role in the catastrophe and they were singularly the culprit.

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees#Refugee_statistics

So much, then, for Arab support for "The Palestinians". 

I'd agree. However, far from "jumping through hoops", the PLO has rejected each and every attempt at peace. For the simple reason that they do not WANT peace. They want the destruction of Israel. 

Well shoot, man, I can't blame them. There is NO WAY for the Pals to get what they want out of "negotiations". Israel is occupying their land and there is nothing the UN will do about it so they will try to remedy the situation any way they can - *and* to their satisfaction, not Israel's. 

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

 

You're seriously suggesting that Israel has butchered and raped the citizens of surrounding countries ? Israel has never entered Jordanian territory. It entered the Sinai - then occupied by Egypt - and the Golan Heights (then Syrian territory). Can you give me any examples of rape and butchery ? I don't think you can ? 

I can but I won't. LOL Kripe's even your English know well what they did. Books have been written. Things like cut men's testicles off, kill a man's wife and children right in front of him before they kill him. Nice. And the cleansing itself started (1946?) with some jewish terrorists going into a quiet farming village, killing 10 or so field workers, coming back in two days and warning the villagers that if they did not get out of town, the same would happen to them. The Zionists cleared out 700,000 men, women, and children from 420 villages and towns with these terrorist tactics. 

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Israel has FREQUENTLY offered to return the Golan Heights in return for a normalisation of relations with Syria. Syria has consistently refused, and maintained its state of war against Israel. It is utterly without precedent for a country that fought a defensive war to discuss return of territory when its opponent - the one that invaded - insists on maintaining that state of war. 

Israel aggressively attacked Syria even before 6 days of '67. They stole Golan and the *crooked* cop, the UN, has not forced them out. Screw negotiations, there are none to be made. Get OUT. and then Syria will negotiate.

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

In regards "nobody attacked more countries"... umm.. I don't think that is true ? Israel has only "attacked" twice. Once in Egypt in 1967 as a pre-emptive strike against the Egyptian military buildup, and once in... umm. can't remember... into Lebannon to suppress attacks by Hezbollah.

Are you nuts??? even the Zionists brag about defeating three nations in 6 days. Egypt, Jordan, Syria. Lebanon came later and yes, they were going after forces hostile to Israel as these were the muslim refugees that went there when forced out of Palestine by Israel. Lebanon WAS a Christian nation. Beirut was considered the most beautiful city in the world. And then Hurricane Israel happened. Oh, well. Israel's wrongful occupation of Lebanon was never met by UN forces, as Israel is immune.

Somewhere in here you mentioned that Israel never went into Jordan. Man is that misleading. Jordanian troops advanced and were rebuffed by IDF. Israel dropped bombs on Aman. They were in the mix, for certain. So three nations came under attack in those six days, and Lebanon came later. Plus, Israel's worst attack came against the Palestinian people. Nobody in the ME has a recent track record for unwarranted attacks by their military. Israel has also dropped bombs on an Iraqi power plant. They have dropped bombs (recently) on Syria. Come on dude, Israel is the mad hatter of the middle east. And I dare say, America's ( and UK's) attack on Sadaam was at the behest of good old Israel. Sure worked for them! 

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

In contrast, we have the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq-Kuwait invasion, the Palestinian attack on Jordan, the Palestinian destruction of Lebannon, and .. gosh.. if we're going back 100 years.... all SORTS of nations vs the Ottoman Empire, and all SORTS of things during WW2. Then there was the Saudi civil war, and - most recently - the Saudi attacks against Yemen (aided by a whole bunch of Arab states). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East

Umm.. actually... yes they did. It was called Compiègne. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_of_22_June_1940 . I'm not sure how this relates to the current discussion, however ? 

I doubt that most Egyptians care one way or the other. Ditto Jordanians, and most of the Arab peninsula. Most muslim countries adopt a pro-forma stance of supporting the Palestinians, and disliking Israel, but I really doubt that their citizens care one way or the other, except when whipped up on Hate Fridays in the mosques. 

Uh huh. Of course, explaining why Iraq then - and Iran now want total destruction of the Zionist entity. Israel is hated like no other nation in the ME and there's a damn good reason for it.

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

 

That's very interseting, EoT. And yes.. war IS a funny thing, in the darkest of ways. 

good posting.

 

[RoofGardener]

29 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I see no  point in pursuing this. It sidesteps the real issues here.  Your information puts blame everywhere *except* on Israel and their role in the catastrophe and they were singularly the culprit.

But is my information wrong ? 

EoT... the Arab's DESPISE the Palestinians. Why else would Saudi Arabia make a naturalisation law, but make Palestinians the sole exception ? 

Why would Jordan be de-naturalising Palestinians at a record rate ? (40,000 in the last 8 years, and rising). 

When Saddam Hussein entered Kuwait, he (effectively) expelled 200,000 Palestinians, purely because he didn't like them.  When Kuwait was liberated, the government expelled a FURTHER 200,000, because the PLO had supported Saddam Hussein. 

When the PLO was given sanctuary in Jordan, they repaid that kindness by attempting to overthrow the government with military force. They where expelled, and when to Lebanon. 

In Lebanon, they disrupted a peaceful and stable country, and turned it into a hell-hole. They where ejected, and went to Algeria, where the government disarmed them, wary of them leading a revolt against THEIR government. 

I DO feel sorry for the real Palestinians. They have been betrayed by their unelected leadership, by the early dreams of Pan-Arabism, and by their Arab neighbours, and by the Organisation of Muslim Co-operation, all of which just want to use them as pawns in their international campaign against Israel. 

Back in 1948, the Arab states attacked Israel because they wanted the land. It was a pure land-grab, and nothing else. The fate of the "Palestinians", had the Arab attack succeeded, would have been the same as their fate under the Ottoman empire; an impoverished, indebted underclass in a theocratic feudal society.. just as it had been for hundreds of years. The fate of the Jews would have been death. 

[+and-then]

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Can you give me any examples of rape and butchery ? I don't think you can ? 

This is a manifestation of a hatred that so many feel toward the Jewish state.  I'm sure individual leaders and troops in the IDF have committed criminal acts - just like U.S. troops have been guilty of occasionally but it is NOT systemic nor is it normalized.  The truth doesn't matter to the supporters of the Palestinians and I only respect those who are willing to admit that if it takes the death of millions to give "justice" to those Palestinians, then they're okay with that.  That really is the bottom line in this conflict and too few ever follow the arguments to their obvious conclusion.  

[RoofGardener]

17 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Are you nuts??? even the Zionists brag about defeating three nations in 6 days. Egypt, Jordan, Syria. Lebanon came later and yes, they were going after forces hostile to Israel as these were the muslim refugees that went there when forced out of Palestine by Israel. Lebanon WAS a Christian nation. Beirut was considered the most beautiful city in the world. And then Hurricane Israel happened. Oh, well. Israel's wrongful occupation of Lebanon was never met by UN forces, as Israel is immune.

But... @Earl.Of.Trumps .. that's simply not true ? Israel had no territorial ambitions on Lebanon, and - prior to 1978 -  certainly never crossed the border, or anything like that. (actually, that's not entirely accurate; Israel launched a special forces attack to assassinate members of the PLO high command in 1973 in the suburbs of Beiruit. This was in retaliation for the Munich Olympics massacre). 

Lebanon invaded Israel in 1948, but its troops where repulsed. Israel crossed into southern Lebanon chasing the Lebanese army back,  but - with the signing of an armistice agreement, withdrew from Lebanese territory. 

In 1970 the PLO  tried to overthrow the King of Jordan in an armed uprising. The King expelled the PLO and its fighters, and they ended up in Lebanon. It was the PLO (with aid from Syria, which DID have territorial ambitions in Lebanon) that caused the descent of Lebanon into madness and sectarian civil war. 

The destabalisation occured between 1971 and 1978 (and beyond).  Israel only got involved in Lebanon when the PLO used it as a base for attacking Israel. It was the infamous Coastal Road Massacre that triggered the first Israeli incursion into Lebanon. THAT was in 1978, by which time the PLO and the Syrians had reduced the country into divided fighting militia, with very limited central government control. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War#First_phase_1975–77

It was NOT "hurricane Israel", it was "tsunami PLO" that caused the downfall of Lebanon. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by RoofGardener

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 8/18/2019 at 11:38 AM, RoofGardener said:

But is my information wrong ? 

EoT... the Arab's DESPISE the Palestinians. Why else would Saudi Arabia make a naturalisation law, but make Palestinians the sole exception ? 

Why would Jordan be de-naturalising Palestinians at a record rate ? (40,000 in the last 8 years, and rising). 

When Saddam Hussein entered Kuwait, he (effectively) expelled 200,000 Palestinians, purely because he didn't like them.  When Kuwait was liberated, the government expelled a FURTHER 200,000, because the PLO had supported Saddam Hussein. 

So the victims get treated roughly by host countries that are forced to accept the uninvited guests and you further blame the victims.
Hello, RG!?!?  The Palestinians did not INVADE host countries, they were forced out of Palestine. When will you ever look at the root cause of it all, Israel forced the Palestinians out of their homes and into the desert. Israel is to blame, bottom line.

On 8/18/2019 at 11:38 AM, RoofGardener said:

When the PLO was given sanctuary in Jordan, they repaid that kindness by attempting to overthrow the government with military force. They where expelled, and when to Lebanon. 

In Lebanon, they disrupted a peaceful and stable country, and turned it into a hell-hole. They where ejected, and went to Algeria, where the government disarmed them, wary of them leading a revolt against THEIR government. 

And so you  continue...

On 8/18/2019 at 11:38 AM, RoofGardener said:

I DO feel sorry for the real Palestinians. They have been betrayed by their unelected leadership, by the early dreams of Pan-Arabism, and by their Arab neighbours, and by the Organisation of Muslim Co-operation, all of which just want to use them as pawns in their international campaign against Israel. 

You feel sorry, just not sorry enough

On 8/18/2019 at 11:38 AM, RoofGardener said:

Back in 1948, the Arab states attacked Israel because they wanted the land. It was a pure land-grab, and nothing else.

You mean they were trying to take back some of what they lost due to Jewish hostilities...

On 8/18/2019 at 11:38 AM, RoofGardener said:

The fate of the "Palestinians", had the Arab attack succeeded, would have been the same as their fate under the Ottoman empire; an impoverished, indebted underclass in a theocratic feudal society.. just as it had been for hundreds of years. The fate of the Jews would have been death. 

Not my business. I'm  interested in getting the wrongs righted. Then the Pals are on their own, as everyone is.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

22 hours ago, and then said:

This is a manifestation of a hatred that so many feel toward the Jewish state.  I'm sure individual leaders and troops in the IDF have committed criminal acts - just like U.S. troops have been guilty of occasionally but it is NOT systemic nor is it normalized. 

You know as well as I do that the Jews had more than one terrorist group, so it was systemic.

22 hours ago, and then said:

The truth doesn't matter to the supporters of the Palestinians and I only respect those who are willing to admit that if it takes the death of millions to give "justice" to those Palestinians, then they're okay with that.  That really is the bottom line in this conflict and too few ever follow the arguments to their obvious conclusion.  

I'm well aware of what the probable outcomes could be. That's why I post in here. The situation is volatile and not going away any time too soon.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

8 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

But... @Earl.Of.Trumps .. that's simply not true ? Israel had no territorial ambitions on Lebanon, and - prior to 1978 -  certainly never crossed the border, or anything like that. (actually, that's not entirely accurate; Israel launched a special forces attack to assassinate members of the PLO high command in 1973 in the suburbs of Beiruit. This was in retaliation for the Munich Olympics massacre). 

Lebanon invaded Israel in 1948, but its troops where repulsed. Israel crossed into southern Lebanon chasing the Lebanese army back,  but - with the signing of an armistice agreement, withdrew from Lebanese territory. 

I know you don't like Araba accounts so then will you listen to Christian accounts? If Lebanon attacked Israel, does that not tell you that Lebanon was gravely concerned for what Israel was doing? 

Keep casting blame on everyone. The root cause to all the warring was ISRAEL. they started with their ethnic cleansing on innocent Palestinians, causing an overflow of refugees into border countries. They attacked Israel to prevent further atrocities. One day you will understand that. hopefully

8 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

In 1970 the PLO  tried to overthrow the King of Jordan in an armed uprising. The King expelled the PLO and its fighters, and they ended up in Lebanon. It was the PLO (with aid from Syria, which DID have territorial ambitions in Lebanon) that caused the descent of Lebanon into madness and sectarian civil war. 

The destabalisation occured between 1971 and 1978 (and beyond).  Israel only got involved in Lebanon when the PLO used it as a base for attacking Israel. It was the infamous Coastal Road Massacre that triggered the first Israeli incursion into Lebanon. THAT was in 1978, by which time the PLO and the Syrians had reduced the country into divided fighting militia, with very limited central government control. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War#First_phase_1975–77

It was NOT "hurricane Israel", it was "tsunami PLO" that caused the downfall of Lebanon. 

Sorry, but the PLO would never have been in Lebanon had Israel not forced the Palestinians out of Palestine. The PLO was never a fighting unit until 1967. They were a loose group of some 100 business/politico types headed by Egypt. But when '67 happened, Syria took over and armed the men and the PLO ranks grew. What the BLEEP else were these poor bastids supposed to do?  And yes, Israel is to blame for all of it. 

For kripe's sake, when Germany occupied France, ordinary men immediately joined the French Resistance. They had no choice, just like the Pals! Yes, they are brave warriors to me, fighting and dying for their rights.

'Taint over yet.

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I know you don't like Araba accounts so then will you listen to Christian accounts? If Lebanon attacked Israel, does that not tell you that Lebanon was gravely concerned for what Israel was doing? 

Lebanon was - militarily - a very minor power. The Arab League ordered it to attack in 1948, and it didn't want to refuse and face the wrath of Syria. So attack it did. You have to recall that at THIS stage, the expulsion of "Palestinians" was just a trickle, as they fought the Jews directly. (and lost). So there was no Palestinian refugee issue. (the major exodus didn't occur UNTIL the Arab armies attacked). 

1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Keep casting blame on everyone. The root cause to all the warring was ISRAEL. they started with their ethnic cleansing on innocent Palestinians, causing an overflow of refugees into border countries. They attacked Israel to prevent further atrocities. One day you will understand that. hopefully

Egypt, Syria and Jordan attacked "Israel" with a view to taking control of the territory. They didn't do it to help "the Palestinians". They hadn't dared do it previously because that would mean attacking Britain, who ruled the area until 1948. But the Jews ? Gosh... they are a pushover. We've always slaughtered them in the various pogroms. We can just walk in and divide the territory between ourselves. And the "Palestinians" ? Well, they will just be the same indebted, impoverished peasant farmers that they always where under Ottoman rule. 

Except these where different Jews. These where jews who had experienced the Holocaust, and knew that they could never trust a "protector" ever again, and their only choice was to become their own protectors. These where Jews who had fought in the British Army (and other European armies). These Jews where organised and determined. 

Ah well. 

[RoofGardener]

EoT, it seems to me that we are in deadlock. You appear to regard the Jews as being purely interlopers, and their creation of the State of Israel as being just land piracy. From that perspective, everything that Israel does is bad. Even when they merely defend themselves, they are still in the wrong because - put simply - they shouldn't exist. 

I regard the creation of Israel as a form of "civil war". They are usually ugly, but they happen when two (or more) groups of people - living in the same territory - decide that they can no longer tolerate each others existence. From my perspective, the creation of Israel was as legitimate as any of the other 60+ civil wars on the planet since 1945. (and a lot less bloodthirsty than most of them). In that light, Israel has the right to protect herself from attack (be that in a war, or in suppressing terrorism) , and to determine who is - and isn't - an Israeli citizen, just as other countries do. 

It seems that we can debate until the cows come home and - verily - turn blue in the face. But the divide I mention above means that we would never agree ! 

You go your way, and I'll go mine. 

[+and-then]

On 8/20/2019 at 6:07 AM, RoofGardener said:

You go your way, and I'll go mine. 

It's all a person can do with this issue.  Some simply cannot see the total picture or, if they glimpse it, they are simply unwilling to be realistic about the reality on the ground.  The aspect of this conflict that bothers me the most is the seeming willingness to see massive civilian deaths for the sake of creating "justice" that has NEVER been afforded to any other group of refugees on the planet.  That disconnect makes me certain that the issue isn't with justice for Palestinians as much as it's about displacing Jews at any cost.  That cost is going to be great.  So be it.

[Black Red Devil]

On 8/22/2019 at 12:13 PM, and then said:

It's all a person can do with this issue.  Some simply cannot see the total picture or, if they glimpse it, they are simply unwilling to be realistic about the reality on the ground.  The aspect of this conflict that bothers me the most is the seeming willingness to see massive civilian deaths for the sake of creating "justice" that has NEVER been afforded to any other group of refugees on the planet.  That disconnect makes me certain that the issue isn't with justice for Palestinians as much as it's about displacing Jews at any cost.  That cost is going to be great.  So be it.

Well the reality on the ground is that Israel is stealing gas energy from the Palestinians and forcing them to pay for alternative energy sources.  What's your excuse to that?

[+and-then]

7 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Well the reality on the ground is that Israel is stealing gas energy from the Palestinians and forcing them to pay for alternative energy sources.  What's your excuse to that?

Are they drilling or pumping gas from the 12 mile zone off Gaza?  Even then, since the Palestinians absolutely refuse to negotiate a solution to the impasse they are partly to blame.  Once they've stopped attempting to slaughter random Jews and come to the table I am sure that payback can be worked out.  Until they are willing to stop killing and begin talking it's on their head.  I haven't seen any proof that Israel IS stealing their oil or gas but if Israel IS doing that then I'd want the Palestinians to receive compensation - AFTER they stop their commitment to eradicating the state of Israel from the map.  Don't bother with the idiocy of saying it isn't their goal.  Not much room for an Israel in a Palestine from the "river to the sea"

[Black Red Devil]

4 hours ago, and then said:

Are they drilling or pumping gas from the 12 mile zone off Gaza?  Even then, since the Palestinians absolutely refuse to negotiate a solution to the impasse they are partly to blame.  Once they've stopped attempting to slaughter random Jews and come to the table I am sure that payback can be worked out.  Until they are willing to stop killing and begin talking it's on their head.  I haven't seen any proof that Israel IS stealing their oil or gas but if Israel IS doing that then I'd want the Palestinians to receive compensation - AFTER they stop their commitment to eradicating the state of Israel from the map.  Don't bother with the idiocy of saying it isn't their goal.  Not much room for an Israel in a Palestine from the "river to the sea"

LOL, did you skip the OP and the link in it by mistake or on purpose and not interested?  Instead of getting caught up in your whirlwind of biased emotions why don't you try to rationalise sometimes right from wrong?  You never know, it might be good for your mental health too.  Start off by weighing up the pro's and con's of the the two contenders without cheating. 

Palestinians - no sovereign land, no military complex, houses bulldozed and land stolen, energy stolen and millions of dollars in depth to pay back, no infrastructure due to blockade imposing restrictions on development, wall imposing restrictions on free movement of people, poverty levels in Gaza, discrimination in the West Bank, every reaction to this injustice is met by strong retaliatory action by the IDF (one of the strongest military forces in the world) killing thousands.

Israel - Hamas terrorist group scaring Israeli's by shooting missiles into empty land but one occasionally hits a target causing one or two casualties, Hamas representing one of the smallest lands and populations in the world with no international importance or recognition denying the existence of a permanent member of the UN, the State of Israel.

But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and understand you're just a gullible tool that can't see the true Zionist ideals in motion in any of this (backed up by the US Govt and it's private funders) and that you truly believe the Israeli's are subject to all this discrimination and hatred because they are the Chosen people and not because of how the State of Israel came into existence thanks to the imposed help from western nations.  Then in such case you, but most importantly the Zionists in power, should also understand what the Jews had to go through 80 years ago and ensure no other population should suffer, even in small part, the same type of discrimination and injustice they endured.  I won't hold my breath on that because money is the root of all evils and greed is the seed so why share when you can have it all.

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Then in such case you, but most importantly the Zionists in power, should also understand what the Jews had to go through 80 years ago

Which is the main reason they have defended their homeland so fiercely.  They aren't going anywhere, ever.  The Palestinians could negotiate a fair peace but they ro more specifically their "leaders" have no intention of ever coexisting with Jews.  Had millions of Arab muslims in Palestine been rounded up and gassed just for being Arabs, I'd feel the same way about their rights.

[Black Red Devil]

8 hours ago, and then said:

Which is the main reason they have defended their homeland so fiercely.  They aren't going anywhere, ever.  The Palestinians could negotiate a fair peace but they ro more specifically their "leaders" have no intention of ever coexisting with Jews.  Had millions of Arab muslims in Palestine been rounded up and gassed just for being Arabs, I'd feel the same way about their rights.

None of their actions show they are willing to share the land.  You're just peddling the same excuse the Zionists in power are peddling to justify the theft of Palestinian resources and land.  All backed up by US Congress.  Just by repeating ad infinitum that the Palestinians are the ones to blame for the failure in the peace process because they want to slaughter all Jews isn't going to change reality or change peoples minds because anyone with an ounce of brain can see the disproportionate odds in favor of the Israeli's, militarily, financially and strategically.  By stealing the little land and resources the Palestinians own, it shows clearly what the Zionist intentions have been all along and peace would negate that goal.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 8/20/2019 at 7:07 AM, RoofGardener said:

EoT, it seems to me that we are in deadlock. You appear to regard the Jews as being purely interlopers, and their creation of the State of Israel as being just land piracy. 

For the most part - except for the land they purchased, yes. And I'll even go the step further and say they have somewhat legit claim to the land that the UN partition gave them. After that, NO. They have no right to develop a great military and go beat up weakies and steal their land and homes. Exactly. Especially when they leave so many people homeless and without a home land. Correct. It is all illegal in the eyes of the UN, yes.

On 8/20/2019 at 7:07 AM, RoofGardener said:

I regard the creation of Israel as a form of "civil war". They are usually ugly, but they happen when two (or more) groups of people - living in the same territory - decide that they can no longer tolerate each others existence. From my perspective, the creation of Israel was as legitimate as any of the other 60+ civil wars on the planet since 1945. (and a lot less bloodthirsty than most of them). In that light, Israel has the right to protect herself from attack (be that in a war, or in suppressing terrorism) , and to determine who is - and isn't - an Israeli citizen, just as other countries do. 

Fine, If you really believe that all of a sudden, UN laws that protected Kuwait do not apply to Palestine then just remember, nobody is going to care if Israel gets beaten up by a coalition of ME forces that steals "their" land back. Then what? do you go crying "foul" to the UN? Too late! you chose ignoring the UN law and grab land any way your might could steal it. That is what happens when you destroy the law through ignoring the law - or in the UN's case, selectively not backing up the law. Enjoy the chaos that has erupted. Israelis now have no way to ever achieve peace in life.

On 8/20/2019 at 7:07 AM, RoofGardener said:

It seems that we can debate until the cows come home and - verily - turn blue in the face. But the divide I mention above means that we would never agree ! 

You go your way, and I'll go mine. 

10-4 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

23 hours ago, and then said:

but if Israel IS doing that then I'd want the Palestinians to receive compensation - AFTER they stop their commitment to eradicating the state of Israel from the map. 

So another words, steal the resources from the Palestinians *first* - then make them beg to get something for them. Nice. That's how the Israelis stole Golan. They invaded Golan, stole it and said they would not leave until Syria negotiated peace. 

So they got both by the same corrupt ploy and the UN did NOTHING!

What if Sadaam Hussein said he wasn't leaving Kuwait until he got compensation and Kuwait took back their declaration of war?
Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure. Like the US would listen to that crap.

No prejudice here, though. Believe me, and then, that bias and corruption increases the rage factor immensely. Israel has gotten away with this crap for a long time now. I think it's just a question of time before justice is delivered. And no, they won't wait for the UN to intercede, they will do it their way. Someday. Not tomorrow but someday

In my life and yours, we have seen the tension and hate do nothing but grow. "the end" will eventually erupt.

[+and-then]

9 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I think it's just a question of time before justice is delivered.

On this we can agree.

[RoofGardener]

13 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Fine, If you really believe that all of a sudden, UN laws that protected Kuwait do not apply to Palestine then just remember, nobody is going to care if Israel gets beaten up by a coalition of ME forces that steals "their" land back.

Ah yes.. the United Nations. It's a good point @Earl.Of.Trumps. The UN Security Council issued Resolution 660, and Saddam IMMEDIATELY turned his tanks around and left Kuwait, and personally apologised to the UN for the 'misunderstanding'. 

Oh wait.. no.. he didn't  The only thing that protected (or at least, liberated)  Kuwait was the American military ! 

A coalition of ME forces have already tried to destroy Israel - back in 1948. They failed. Egypt, Syria and Jordan tried again in 1967, but Israel carried out pre-emptive air strikes against assembling Arab forces, and the Arab attack failed. 

.. and again in 1973, despite having tactical surprise, including a pre-emptive air strike against Israeli airbases, and a massive superiority in tanks, APC's, and chocolate biscuits.

And still it failed.

Who in the Middle East is going to attack Israel, @Earl.Of.Trumps ? Who's going to steal the land back ?   

 

[Farmer77]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Who's going to steal the land back ?

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Ah yes.. the United Nations. It's a good point @Earl.Of.Trumps. The UN Security Council issued Resolution 660, and Saddam IMMEDIATELY turned his tanks around and left Kuwait, and personally apologised to the UN for the 'misunderstanding'. 

Oh wait.. no.. he didn't  The only thing that protected (or at least, liberated)  Kuwait was the American military ! 

You're making my point, RoofGardener!

The UN issued resolutions 224 and 338 for Israel to get out of occupied lands. They - like Saddam, did NOTHING of the kind. So it will take a military force to blast them out.  Yes, it was a UN resolution issued to Iraq but it was the US and actually 20+ other countries that supplied the force to take care of the disobeying Iraq. So maybe it will be Iran with 20 other ME countries to do likewise to Israel. Sounds just to me.

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

A coalition of ME forces have already tried to destroy Israel - back in 1948. They failed. Egypt, Syria and Jordan tried again in 1967, but Israel carried out pre-emptive air strikes against assembling Arab forces, and the Arab attack failed. 

.. and again in 1973, despite having tactical surprise, including a pre-emptive air strike against Israeli airbases, and a massive superiority in tanks, APC's, and chocolate biscuits.

And still it failed.

Who in the Middle East is going to attack Israel, @Earl.Of.Trumps ? Who's going to steal the land back ?   

 

Notice that they keep trying, RG, and they will always keep trying. We know who the Middle East tyrant is now and they will be held accountable forever.

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

You're making my point, RoofGardener!

The UN issued resolutions 224 and 338 for Israel to get out of occupied lands. They - like Saddam, did NOTHING of the kind. So it will take a military force to blast them out.  Yes, it was a UN resolution issued to Iraq but it was the US and actually 20+ other countries that supplied the force to take care of the disobeying Iraq. So maybe it will be Iran with 20 other ME countries to do likewise to Israel. Sounds just to me.

Notice that they keep trying, RG, and they will always keep trying. We know who the Middle East tyrant is now and they will be held accountable forever.

Resolution 224  related to the admission of Botswana to the United Nations.

Resolution 338 related to the surprise attack in 1973 (the Yom Kippur war). It imposed a ceasefire on the Arab states as well as Israel. Egypt and Israel originally accepted the terms: Syria, Iraq and Jordan rejected the resolution. 

The ceasefire mandated by the resolution was rapidly broken, but historians differ over who broke it first, Egypt or Israel. 

Neither resolution related to land ? 

 

****Edit***

Aha.. I think you meant resolution 242 ? 

If you read it, the requirement for Israel to withdraw from conquered territories is dependent on the other combatants recognising the territorial sovereignty of Israel, and it's right to exist in peace. The Arab States refused to make that step (including the PLO). Therefore 242 is in abeyance until they do.

No Tickee, no Laundry ! 

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by RoofGardener

[RoofGardener]

2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

It is a matter of deep regret to me that I can only click on the "Like/made me laugh" button once !