Beneath troubled waters

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Resolution 224  related to the admission of Botswana to the United Nations.

My error - res 242. (dyslexia)

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Resolution 338 related to the surprise attack in 1973 (the Yom Kippur war). It imposed a ceasefire on the Arab states as well as Israel. Egypt and Israel originally accepted the terms: Syria, Iraq and Jordan rejected the resolution. 

Let's get to the nib of the nub. It was telling Israel to get OUT of the occupied lands

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

The ceasefire mandated by the resolution was rapidly broken, but historians differ over who broke it first, Egypt or Israel. 

Neither resolution related to land ? 

 

****Edit***

Aha.. I think you meant resolution 242 ? 

If you read it, the requirement for Israel to withdraw from conquered territories is dependent on the other combatants recognising the territorial sovereignty of Israel, and it's right to exist in peace. The Arab States refused to make that step (including the PLO). Therefore 242 is in abeyance until they do.

No Tickee, no Laundry ! 

 

So in other words, unlike invader Iraq, good ol' Israel wins again!!  Yes,, Yes... Just wave the magic wand and Israel can eat up all the territory of other countries that it wants. 

And now you know precisely why a coalition of ME forces will get them out. Israel is conducting illegal occupations and they have for a long long time. If the UN is proving itself to be a corrupt cop, don't worry, "other forces" will take over for them and exact justice, at least in this case of the Zionist entity.

[RoofGardener]

23 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

My error - res 242. (dyslexia)

Let's get to the nib of the nub. It was telling Israel to get OUT of the occupied lands

Umm.. I don't THINK so ? It was basically a ceasefire resolution. It wanted people to stop shooting at each other, pending a negotiated settlement ? 

23 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

So in other words, unlike invader Iraq, good ol' Israel wins again!!  Yes,, Yes... Just wave the magic wand and Israel can eat up all the territory of other countries that it wants. 

ROFL. Yeah.. OK @Earl.Of.Trumps. 

I love the idea of the magic wand.... 

Netenyahu waves his wand..... "Palestinia Expelliarmus"  

Edited August 28, 2019 by RoofGardener

[+and-then]

He's partially correct.  A coalition will come against Israel and do massive damage with unbelievable loss of life but it won't just be Israelis dying.  When the dust and smoke clears the Jews will seem to be annihilated except for a small number who have fled.  The success of that venture will last roughly 3.5 years and then those who displaced the Jews will be utterly destroyed.  Not just those who came there to kill and steal, mind you.  Their home countries will burn as well. Then the Jews will return and will NEVER be displaced by anyone again.

So, for those so hellbent on "justice", may they live to see it truly handed down.  ALL of it.  

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm.. I don't THINK so ? It was basically a ceasefire resolution. It wanted people to stop shooting at each other, pending a negotiated settlement ? 

ROFL. Yeah.. OK @Earl.Of.Trumps. 

I love the idea of the magic wand.... 

Netenyahu waves his wand..... "Palestinia Expelliarmus"  

RG, you'd be amazed how many Westerners have no bleeping clue that there is such a thing as Palestine. I cannot explain for the rest of the West but in the US in 1968, the Jewish lobby had the US legislature enact a law that forced US map makers to remove Mandated Palestine from the maps and only show Israel. This little known piece of propaganda left Americans for all the future to really think that Palestinians were nothing more than uppity nomads within Israel. Mazal tov! Shalom! 

So yea, wave the magic wand and... Presto! 

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

3 hours ago, and then said:

He's partially correct.  A coalition will come against Israel and do massive damage with unbelievable loss of life but it won't just be Israelis dying.  When the dust and smoke clears the Jews will seem to be annihilated except for a small number who have fled.  The success of that venture will last roughly 3.5 years and then those who displaced the Jews will be utterly destroyed.  Not just those who came there to kill and steal, mind you.  Their home countries will burn as well. Then the Jews will return and will NEVER be displaced by anyone again.

So, for those so hellbent on "justice", may they live to see it truly handed down.  ALL of it.  

You know, and then, you side with Divine Intervention and I basically do not. But if it all happens the way you say, I'll really question the justness of God and if I really want to call myself one of "His Creations".  I don't want to live and die for a God such as that. I wonder if He'll let me opt out!?

God gave us our judgement and it seems that in all wars God does not seem to intervene, instead, God let's us fight it out. When the US/UK fought Germany, They all prayed to the same God. Now what?  Is God going to choose his Chosen People amongst that group to determine a winner? And what  if it was Germany, would we still believe in a just God? Confusing, eh?

Anyway, the bible does call for a Armageddon. And many millions will be lost. Who knows who will win? I have no idea because we don't know who this will entail in total. the US? Russia, China? who knows.

You likely remember Viet Nam. The US had a vastly superior military. And I can recall... the casualty ratio was 20:1  Viet Cong to US troops killed. But guess who won the war?!  And I see the same possibility here in the Levant. Of course Israel can kick ass. But the 7 million Israelis is small compared to a billion Muslims. 

You're younger than me, and then, and you may see it but I don't think I'll be around to see anything like that. 

[RoofGardener]

12 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

RG, you'd be amazed how many Westerners have no bleeping clue that there is such a thing as Palestine. I cannot explain for the rest of the West but in the US in 1968, the Jewish lobby had the US legislature enact a law that forced US map makers to remove Mandated Palestine from the maps and only show Israel. This little known piece of propaganda left Americans for all the future to really think that Palestinians were nothing more than uppity nomads within Israel. Mazal tov! Shalom! 

So yea, wave the magic wand and... Presto! 

 

Well.. there IS some logic to that, @Earl.Of.Trumps. In 1968, there was no longer such a thing as "The British Mandate of Palestine"... indeed, there hadn't been since 1948 !!

At the same time, there was no such nation as Palestine. Still isn't, for that matter. 

Propaganda, or inconvenient reality ?  

< waves wand.... "Riddikulous" > 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Well.. there IS some logic to that, @Earl.Of.Trumps. In 1968, there was no longer such a thing as "The British Mandate of Palestine"... indeed, there hadn't been since 1948 !!

At the same time, there was no such nation as Palestine. Still isn't, for that matter. 

Propaganda, or inconvenient reality ?  

< waves wand.... "Riddikulous" > 

Up until the law being passed, US mapmakers showed - *I suppose* mandated Palestine, what it was after the partition. 
If it suddenly *disappears*, how is it so automatic that Israel assumes the land on that map that was mandated Palestine? 

Sorry but it was all BS. The mapmakers' "Right to Free Speech" had been taken away. And it certainly was true that the partition did make for a mandated Palestine after Britain gave up the mandate 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Earl.Of.Trumps

[+and-then]

8 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

You know, and then, you side with Divine Intervention and I basically do not.

Yes, I do.  The reason I am steadfastly assured that Israel will survive is that they have God's promise it will be so.  Only a remnant - about 1/3 will live to see it but it WILL be just as the Bible records it.  Instead of trying to choose the plight of the Palestinians over God's designs, possibly you could entertain the idea that maybe, just maybe, you don't understand things as well as you think?  I support Israel's right to that land not because the people are extraordinarily righteous or deserving.  I support them because the Lord said He has chosen them and will support them.  He will save a remnant after He punishes their disobedience one last time.  Their enemies will be so thoroughly devastated that there will be no doubt that their God IS God.  Those who live to see it will not attempt to remove those survivors from that land EVER again.  This is my belief and those who wish to scoff are welcome to do so.  

[RoofGardener]

6 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Up until the law being passed, US mapmakers showed - *I suppose* mandated Palestine, what it was after the partition. 
If it suddenly *disappears*, how is it so automatic that Israel assumes the land on that map that was mandated Palestine? 

Sorry but it was all BS. The mapmakers' "Right to Free Speech" had been taken away. And it certainly was true that the partition did make for a mandated Palestine after Britain gave up the mandate 

Well GOSH... the maps should NOT have shown the area as "Mandated Palestine" because a large part of it was a new country called Israel. I says "new", but at the time it was already 20 years old. And it had been recognised by the USA 20 years previously. So why SHOULD the US map-makers continue to refer to the area as "Mandated Palestine" ? Part of it was actually Israel, and the rest was disorganised territory, but territory that was certainly NOT a part of any legal mandate. (as of 1968, the date that this law was passed). 

Indeed, I'd flip the question on its head. Why on EARTH where US mapmakers -  prior to this law in 1968 - referring to Israel as "Mandated Palestine" ? They presumably didn't refer to Germany as The Reich, nor to the Soviet Union as the Russian Empire ? 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 8/29/2019 at 1:04 AM, and then said:

Instead of trying to choose the plight of the Palestinians over God's designs, possibly you could entertain the idea that maybe, just maybe, you don't understand things as well as you think? 

Since Palestinians are God's children, our interpretation as to God's designs are quite confusing. God gave us all sensibilities about goodness and kindness and I respond that way. God also gave us "laws". If God has a grand plan or design, then so be it, as it won't matter one iota what I or anyone else really thinks. It is obvious though, that I don't think that God's design includes unspeakable systemic and prejudicial cruelties to Palestinian people over this long period of time. These are not the actions that would be approved of by any God I know. And I am quite sure that if suddenly, Israel had true peace with the Palestinians, God would smile.

On 8/29/2019 at 1:04 AM, and then said:

I support Israel's right to that land not because the people are extraordinarily righteous or deserving.

*Your* opinion. What exactly did Jews do to deserve that land, kill and steal?  That's breaking two of God's commandments written in stone and the last I checked, Jews were not exempt. I cannot help it that man's interpretations of God's laws and God's will are in complete contradiction. 

And, no, I don't scoff at your ideas, I simply think that we are at odds as to what sway God gives to his righteous, chosen people in this life. I'm sure Jeff Epstein does not get a pass because he is "chosen". 

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 8/29/2019 at 2:25 AM, RoofGardener said:

Well GOSH... the maps should NOT have shown the area as "Mandated Palestine" because a large part of it was a new country called Israel. I says "new", but at the time it was already 20 years old. And it had been recognised by the USA 20 years previously. So why SHOULD the US map-makers continue to refer to the area as "Mandated Palestine" ?

Ahhh,, because they wanted to. Freedom of Speech. And to this day, their is a Mandated Palestine according to the UN so the US mapmakers were not at all out of line to display  it that way on their maps. It's called propaganda.

On 8/29/2019 at 2:25 AM, RoofGardener said:

Part of it was actually Israel, and the rest was disorganised territory, but territory that was certainly NOT a part of any legal mandate. (as of 1968, the date that this law was passed). 

Disagree. The UN never disavowed the Partition.

On 8/29/2019 at 2:25 AM, RoofGardener said:

Indeed, I'd flip the question on its head. Why on EARTH where US mapmakers -  prior to this law in 1968 - referring to Israel as "Mandated Palestine" ? They presumably didn't refer to Germany as The Reich, nor to the Soviet Union as the Russian Empire ? 

No, no, no. The US map makers showed an Israel and a mandated Palestine - which is fair, seeing as though people generally think that the UN partition was actually legal. 

BTW, who's the handsome man that sat in for you in the pic? 

 

<<snickers>> 

[RoofGardener]

41 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Ahhh,, because they wanted to. Freedom of Speech.

AHA.. so you admit the mapmakers where indulging in politics ? GOTCHA !!!

41 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Disagree. The UN never disavowed the Partition.

Umm... OK.. you've stumped me there. What.. exactly.. do you mean by that ? 

The partition arrangement has never been referred to in any UN resolution since it was proposed. (and rejected by the Arabs). It has no legal status, then or now ? 

44 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

BTW, who's the handsome man that sat in for you in the pic? 

<<snickers>> 

Do you think they got my best side ? < flicks hair > 

[+and-then]

6 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I'm sure Jeff Epstein does not get a pass because he is "chosen". 

That's kind of thepoint, EoT.  Can you name another people group anywhere on the planet down through history that has suffered as much from their neighbors as have the Jews?  They've hardly had an easy go of it.  They've been systematically singled out for pogroms and slanders for tens of centuries due to their religious practices of remaining separate from their neighbors.  

You never have nor ever will have an example of me saying Jews are superior to any other human beings just because they are God's CHOSEN.  I understand that many of them take that label to mean that they ARE superior to others but they are badly mistaken and will pay dearly for the arrogance of that ideology.  Abraham had FAITH in the one true God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.  God made promises to his descendants through Isaac, then Jacob(Israel).  Those promises were inviolable and permanent.  The only flexibility was "when" they'd be fulfilled.  It still hasn't occurred and they will suffer horrific losses one last time before Christ returns to bring them back from imprisonment by their enemies. 

So you and those who believe as you do will have a season to see what you think of as "Justice" come upon Israel's people in the years ahead.  Jerusalem will be sacked, Israel overrun by her enemies and millions will suffer.  In fact, millions will die.  I wonder, will you turn a blind eye to the carnage, reassuring yourself that they "had it coming"?  Even the children, women and the elderly?  I hope you are a better man than that, at least. 

Ultimately, I believe that they will finally have those promises fulfilled and their enemies will be destroyed so utterly that they never have to live in fear again.  The faith that drives the hatred against them will be ended by the appearance of the true God.  In fact, the enemies of the Jews will, at that time, come to Zion to willingly learn of the Jewish God and kneel before Him.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

AHA.. so you admit the mapmakers where indulging in politics ? GOTCHA !!!

No. No politics to it. They have to have something on the map. Who knows how far back these maps went, 1950's? this happened in 1968. 
So why not use the only authorative version (UN) of what each parcel in the disputed lands was called. That's neutral. Notice the US congress had no objections to these maps themselves until the Jewish lobby laid gold at their feet.

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm... OK.. you've stumped me there. What.. exactly.. do you mean by that ? 

The UN made the partition with majority vote. And the UN - as best I know, never altered that land assignment.

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

The partition arrangement has never been referred to in any UN resolution since it was proposed. (and rejected by the Arabs). It has no legal status, then or now ? 

 

Do you think they got my best side ? < flicks hair > 

I wouldn't worry if they didn't LOL.  I thought you might be older but of course, not as old as and then, that would be Methuselah stuff LOL 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

3 hours ago, and then said:

That's kind of thepoint, EoT.  Can you name another people group anywhere on the planet down through history that has suffered as much from their neighbors as have the Jews?  They've hardly had an easy go of it.  They've been systematically singled out for pogroms and slanders for tens of centuries due to their religious practices of remaining separate from their neighbors.  

Not for me to adjudicate. And I only call into our inspection what they DO not who they are and not what happened to them in Europe.

3 hours ago, and then said:

You never have nor ever will have an example of me saying Jews are superior to any other human beings just because they are God's CHOSEN.  I understand that many of them take that label to mean that they ARE superior to others but they are badly mistaken and will pay dearly for the arrogance of that ideology.  Abraham had FAITH in the one true God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.  God made promises to his descendants through Isaac, then Jacob(Israel).  Those promises were inviolable and permanent.  The only flexibility was "when" they'd be fulfilled.  It still hasn't occurred and they will suffer horrific losses one last time before Christ returns to bring them back from imprisonment by their enemies. 

You know that as far as I am concerned that it is conjecture. We the humans must act in accordance to human law as well as religious laws. and I doubt even Judaism allows for the mistreatment of people like this. It was a land grab. I'm sure it meant a lot to them but, no excuses. I'm sure it meant a lot to Billie the Kid to rob trains too. Meh.

3 hours ago, and then said:

So you and those who believe as you do will have a season to see what you think of as "Justice" come upon Israel's people in the years ahead.  Jerusalem will be sacked, Israel overrun by her enemies and millions will suffer.  In fact, millions will die.  I wonder, will you turn a blind eye to the carnage, reassuring yourself that they "had it coming"?  Even the children, women and the elderly?  I hope you are a better man than that, at least. 

How could I possibly miss it?  For the UN to *selectively* not back up its own laws we now have the results. Chaos. Too many Christian nations in the UN, that's what determined it.

3 hours ago, and then said:

Ultimately, I believe that they will finally have those promises fulfilled and their enemies will be destroyed so utterly that they never have to live in fear again.  The faith that drives the hatred against them will be ended by the appearance of the true God.  In fact, the enemies of the Jews will, at that time, come to Zion to willingly learn of the Jewish God and kneel before Him.

I wish you luck.

[RoofGardener]

20 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

No. No politics to it. They have to have something on the map. Who knows how far back these maps went, 1950's? this happened in 1968. 
So why not use the only authorative version (UN) of what each parcel in the disputed lands was called. That's neutral. Notice the US congress had no objections to these maps themselves until the Jewish lobby laid gold at their feet.

The UN made the partition with majority vote. And the UN - as best I know, never altered that land assignment.

I wouldn't worry if they didn't LOL.  I thought you might be older but of course, not as old as and then, that would be Methuselah stuff LOL 

I doubt that Congress even KNEW that US Mapmakers where mis-labelling the area ? I mean.. it's a reasonably obscure issue ? 

Don't forget, the UN Proposal for dividing the territory was just that.. a proposal. It's not as though it became international law or anything ? And I can only repeat... if US Federal Cartographers where refusing to label a map as "Israel", when the US Congress had already recognised that nation, then the mapmakers are misrepresenting the region, and they need to be corrected, if not actually prodded and made to sit in the corner. Don't forget.. the Mandate expired in 1948. So the cartographers are making two errors. Firstly, they are deleting a sovereign nation (Israel), secondly they are mis-labelling a region using a political term that had expired - and been replaced - twenty years previously. 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I doubt that Congress even KNEW that US Mapmakers where mis-labelling the area ? I mean.. it's a reasonably obscure issue ? 

They weren't mislabeling the area. And congress could care less about it, yes, but their lobbyists cared. The Jewish lobby is very powerful in Washington. They usually get what they want. They sure did this time. 

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Don't forget, the UN Proposal for dividing the territory was just that.. a proposal. It's not as though it became international law or anything ?

Really?  "The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a proposal by the United Nations, which recommended a partition of Mandatory Palestine at the end of the British Mandate. On 29 November 1947, the UN General Assembly adopted the Plan as Resolution 181"

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

And I can only repeat... if US Federal Cartographers where refusing to label a map as "Israel", when the US Congress had already recognised that nation, then the mapmakers are misrepresenting the region, and they need to be corrected, if not actually prodded and made to sit in the corner. Don't forget.. the Mandate expired in 1948. So the cartographers are making two errors. Firstly, they are deleting a sovereign nation (Israel), secondly they are mis-labelling a region using a political term that had expired - and been replaced - twenty years previously. 

As you can clearly see a Mandatory Palestine was called for and the resolution 181 passed. Israel was recognized as a nation, yes, but it's property was clearly defined. 

The long and short of it is, the map makers had it right, there is a Mandatory Palestine but the new maps - by law, only showed a suddenly expanded Israel.

[RoofGardener]

17 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

They weren't mislabeling the area. And congress could care less about it, yes, but their lobbyists cared. The Jewish lobby is very powerful in Washington. They usually get what they want. They sure did this time. 

Really?  "The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a proposal by the United Nations, which recommended a partition of Mandatory Palestine at the end of the British Mandate. On 29 November 1947, the UN General Assembly adopted the Plan as Resolution 181"

As you can clearly see a Mandatory Palestine was called for and the resolution 181 passed. Israel was recognized as a nation, yes, but it's property was clearly defined. 

The long and short of it is, the map makers had it right, there is a Mandatory Palestine but the new maps - by law, only showed a suddenly expanded Israel.

< sigh > 

Resolution 181 was passed in 1947... which was BEFORE the mandate expired. So - at the time of its framing - resolution 181 was correct in reffering to the region as "Mandatory Palestine". 

Now, the mandate was a General Assembly resolution, and hence has no binding force, or international legal force. Moreover, the resolution explicitly states that "the residents of the Mandate area" should put into place such measures as are necessary to implement the resolution. But as the Arab side had already rejected the resolution, that was never going to happen. 

All of this was rendered moot when, in 1948, Israel declared itself, and was subsequently recognised as a sovereign nation by - among many others - the United States of America. Jordan invaded the West Bank, and annexed it. All Arab Palestinians immediately become Jordanians, snuffing out all future hope of a separate Palestinian identity. 

From that point forward, it is obviously wrong to refer to the geographical area of Israel as "the Mandate" on USA maps. Firstly, it isn't the mandate, it is Israel and Jordan.

The USA maps where wrong, simple as.  It it was entirely appropriate for Congress to require that Federal Cartographers ceased using the 20-year old (and 20-year obsolete) term "Mandate". 

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Well, @RoofGardener, if the resolution is not binding ( I don't think that the case) then it is still Palestine. That's all. It was Palestine for a thousand years, what a bunch of immigrants want to call it is irrelevant 

And isn't is curious that these unwanted immigrants in Palestine get to call themselves a "nation" and have that respected, all the while denying same to Palestinian people, is a complete biased farce.

Whether Palestinian people get their own nation or not ( I suspect NOT), they are still people that need UN protection and have needed it for a long while.

These Palestinian people go way back in the region, some having a house that was built at the time of Christ. None of the Euro Jews can ever make that claim.

 

[RoofGardener]

Just now, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Well, @RoofGardener, if the resolution is not binding ( I don't think that the case) then it is still Palestine. That's all. It was Palestine for a thousand years, what a bunch of immigrants want to call it is irrelevant 

And isn't is curious that these unwanted immigrants in Palestine get to call themselves a "nation" and have that respected, all the while denying same to Palestinian people, is a complete biased farce.

Whether Palestinian people get their own nation or not ( I suspect NOT), they are still people that need UN protection and have needed it for a long while.

These Palestinian people go way back in the region, some having a house that was built at the time of Christ. None of the Euro Jews can ever make that claim.

 

The resolution was NOT binding, in that (a) it was a General Assembly resolution, and NOT a Security Council resolution, and (b) the language did not attempt to bind anything or anybody, merely request that they look into implementing the territorial plan. 0. 

As for your discussion of a "nation", that is changing the topic from your original statement about Cartographers, and how the Evil Joooz forced them to change their maps. (because the Jews control congress, don't ya know ? )