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Black Red Devil

Beneath troubled waters

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Sir Smoke aLot
2 minutes ago, and then said:

Just as supporters of Palestinians have to swallow the humiliation of what happens to obsessed, warmongering Arabs who prefer killing Jews to having a decent life, even for their children.  The cycle will continue until they give up their demand for the Jews to be gone from the land.  That just isn't going to happen.

There are wild individuals in every group of people. Even among Jehova's witnesses :D 

My point was that Hamas has nothing to do with the fact that Israel should be giving fair amount of money to Palestinian social services. Money from gas which is exploited from areas which belong to Gaza. Such thing is not even considered by Israeli officials. 

Generally, and it is off topic now - 1947 UN plan is starting legal point and i am not really sure why did Palestinians adopt (widely) demand for state under 1967 borders. But since Palestinians are wiling to accept 1967 borders i can not argue because it's their decision.

That kinda contradicts the notion that Palestinians want Jews to be gone. I believe that you imply that they want them to be gone from ME completely and for Israel to cease to exist?

They want them to be gone from areas which Israel occupies, at least officially. Since Israel has not even considered to offer hand to people in Gaza i understand Hamas's resistance to adopt different doctrine. 

 

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Sir Smoke aLot
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, SOME fields - rather small ones, but fields nontheless

:)

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3 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

That kinda contradicts the notion that Palestinians want Jews to be gone. I believe that you imply that they want them to be gone from ME completely and for Israel to cease to exist?

Those are their words, not mine.  The media doesn't cover this so there are precious few examples that anyone here would find "acceptable" but the fact exists regardless their denial.  What they did in Gaza proves what they will do from any new piece of land they are given.  They will take it and strengthen it and renew their attacks.  It has been their pattern and there is no reason to expect anything else from them.  I believe they will sign on to a treaty and take the land and concessions it provides then they will renew their attacks.  I also believe that not one of their supporters here will condemn them when they do so.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
3 hours ago, and then said:

I believe they will sign on to a treaty and take the land and concessions it provides then they will renew their attacks.

I think you're right.

No way out for Israel. Israel can shut down the UN, thanks to the US. But they cannot shut down a billion angry Muslims

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Black Red Devil
7 hours ago, and then said:

As long as the Hamas and the PA BOTH control territory from which death is dealt against Israelis, they BOTH matter in the discussion.  What good is it to come to an agreement with a next-door neighbor who wants to kill you, when his brother on the other side is going to continue to try?  I can say the same thing about "international law".  Those agreements were decided by the UN, I assume?  A body that is comprised of a majority of nations that are hell-bent on removing Israel (of any size) from the world map?  

I wouldn't be too critical about the UN and international law if I was you.  The only reason why Israel isn't submerged under sanctions is because of how the UN adopts international law through Resolutions and Vetoing privileges by the few.  Also, there are 195 countries that adhere to the UN, are you saying the majority (lets say 100) are hell bent on removing Israel?  Only 31 countries do not recognise the State of Israel which means 164 do.  Somehow your claim doesn't sound statistically right or maybe you might want to reword it and say 'the majority of nations are hell-bent on getting Israel to stop suppressing another nation'.

As for Hamas, if ever (which I doubt) Israel and the PA sit down and discuss a peace process and how to move forward, Hamas will just get pushed aside lose power and probably become another small terrorist group who finds satisfaction in killing innocent victims.

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31 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I think you're right.

No way out for Israel. Israel can shut down the UN, thanks to the US. But they cannot shut down a billion angry Muslims

So, what do you think SHOULD happen?

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22 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Hamas will just get pushed aside lose power and probably become another small terrorist group who finds satisfaction in killing innocent victims.

They are funded by Iran and they aren't going to disappear.  If Israel makes a deal with the PA that doesn't include the cooperation of Hamas, they will be surrendering territory and they will still be subjected to attacks by Hamas.  How long do you think they'll accept that?  

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Black Red Devil
22 minutes ago, and then said:

They are funded by Iran and they aren't going to disappear.  If Israel makes a deal with the PA that doesn't include the cooperation of Hamas, they will be surrendering territory and they will still be subjected to attacks by Hamas.  How long do you think they'll accept that?  

They'll be surrendering territory that isn't theirs anyway but this won't happen because the Zionists have no intention in giving away territory which basically makes all discussions in regards fruitless.  Only when Likud gets removed from power and a moderate Party takes hold of the Knesset may we see some peace attempt.  Until then......

Edited by Black Red Devil
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Earl.Of.Trumps
5 hours ago, and then said:

So, what do you think SHOULD happen?

What I think should happen never will. Israel should go back to the 1946 borders of the original UN partition. You remember the one that had something called "Mandated Palestine"? Israel signed that, you know.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
5 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

They'll be surrendering territory that isn't theirs anyway but this won't happen because the Zionists have no intention in giving away territory which basically makes all discussions in regards fruitless.  Only when Likud gets removed from power and a moderate Party takes hold of the Knesset may we see some peace attempt.  Until then...…

even with a moderate in power, whenever they start to remove "Settlers" from a given locale in occupied Palestine, the crap hits the fan

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2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

What I think should happen never will. Israel should go back to the 1946 borders of the original UN partition. You remember the one that had something called "Mandated Palestine"? Israel signed that, you know.

And if that happens and the Palestinians do the same thing they did when Gaza was vacated to them?  What then?

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2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

even with a moderate in power, whenever they start to remove "Settlers" from a given locale in occupied Palestine, the crap hits the fan

That didn't stop Sharon from forcibly removing them.  History is pretty clear about how grateful the Palestinians were for that concession.  

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RoofGardener
7 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

They'll be surrendering territory that isn't theirs anyway but this won't happen because the Zionists have no intention in giving away territory which basically makes all discussions in regards fruitless.  Only when Likud gets removed from power and a moderate Party takes hold of the Knesset may we see some peace attempt.  Until then......

Ummm.. are we still talking about Gaza ? Israel DID surrender that, remember ? And things where going well there until HAMAS staged a post-election coup and took physical control of it. 

The situation is complicated by the fact that HAMAS won the popular palestinian vote, but was rejected by both the PA and the International Community. That was back in 2006. Once HAMAS took control of Gaza, there where - of course - no further elections. 

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RAyMO
1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

The situation is complicated by the fact that HAMAS won the popular palestinian vote, but was rejected by both the PA and the International Community.

Ys I remember that, - go now have an election, ah sorry not the answer we wanted, go and do it again.

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Sir Smoke aLot
14 hours ago, and then said:

What they did in Gaza proves what they will do from any new piece of land they are given.

We are talking about economical aspect of occupation here man. But let's be real, you can not defend Israeli policy over prophecy about what Hamas might do in future lol

Occupying power has certain obligations and is required by law to act like responsible entity.

Whatever Hamas does is not the reason for destruction of environment in West Bank, where there is no Hamas!

Similar problems are at both pieces of Palestinian claimed land so do you blame PA for situation in West Bank? They are mostly collaborators for God's sake and civilians still do not have their human rights respected.

10 hours ago, and then said:

They are funded by Iran and they aren't going to disappear.

You fail to understand that Arabian Spring has placed Hamas in very uncomfortable and isolated position when it comes to foreign connections and assistance. Especially the reason was the fall of so called muslim brotherhood, situation in Qatar (major sponsor for decades, which doesn't support Hamas directly anymore)...

Another reason for Hamas's lack of foreign support is their dumb decision to vocally support uprising against Assad in Syria and identify with some groups of rebels. Those moves have lead to Hamas being unheard and isolated.

In such situation, over the years, now people in Gaza have only one choice... To protest, die and hope that their voice will be heard because they are not heard, anywhere. There is large reason why Iran has either stopped or moved support from Hamas to some other figures within Palestinian factions.

In most recent UN Human Rights report man responsible for investigation wrote about how Israel prevented him of going directly at the sites in occupied areas and in Gaza so everything he made was based on works of other UN workers, local journalists, independent research etc.

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Sir Smoke aLot

This would be reason enough for me to take arms and fight for better future.

Israel does not only exploit Palestinian resources, land and future for it's own benefit, contrary to it's obligations as occupying power but it also use Palestinian land as garbage pile, for recycling and landfill.

PDF document, B'Tselem. 2017. LINK

From the PDF :

[edit]i just hate quotations since it tends to mess up my posts. Within this spoiler we have part from report in first 3 rows of text, rest is my overlook about it - most important to notice is that there is no Hamas in West Bank jet they suffer greatly. Who do you blame there i wonder?

 

Power disparities between populations are among the chief factors that determine who will have better access to resources, and who will suffer from greater exposure to waste and hazardous materials.1 The more developed a country is – the combined result of a number of factors, including economic growth, globalization and urbanization – the more resources it consumes and the more waste it generates per capita.

...

Like other countries, Israel has a waste treatment system. Internal objections to local treatment plants, combined with the high costs associated with stringent environmental regulation and international restrictions on waste export, have encouraged Israel to seek sacrifice zones,4 where waste treatment facilities could be placed.

''Sacrifice zones'' - term by which this is explained.

Fun fact : this is happening in West Bank. 

We should compare what benefit does peaceful resistance in West Bank have so that we might be able to find argument in favor of peaceful resistance. In West Bank, natural resources could amount up to 2 billion $ annually, just from Dead Sea. If agriculture sector was in good shape that would also be of benefit to Palestinian people and might in return make better image of Israel in minds of occupied people.

Agriculture sector suffers also from Israeli selective spraying, LINK.

There are numerous other examples of how this occupation is destroying any prospect for peaceful future and is destroying security for both people.

Right now we have de facto annexation in West Bank, not occupation and UN turns blind eye to that fact.

So let me ask you where is Hamas to blame in West Bank? Who do you blame now in order to defame them so that Israel, again, remains to be the good guy regardless of it's atrocities?

So instead of making excuses ''look he is terrorist do not listen to him'' you should admit what occupation is doing to the population and to their future.

 

 

 

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot

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Black Red Devil
5 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

even with a moderate in power, whenever they start to remove "Settlers" from a given locale in occupied Palestine, the crap hits the fan

Yeah especially those ones with the top hats, beards and curly sideburns.

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Black Red Devil
3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Ummm.. are we still talking about Gaza ? Israel DID surrender that, remember ? And things where going well there until HAMAS staged a post-election coup and took physical control of it. 

The situation is complicated by the fact that HAMAS won the popular palestinian vote, but was rejected by both the PA and the International Community. That was back in 2006. Once HAMAS took control of Gaza, there where - of course - no further elections. 

The thing that gives Hamas recognition by the Palestinians is their role as freedom fighters against the oppressive and unlawful conduct of Israel.  With a two state solution they would have to change their manifesto or go underground as terrorists and I doubt they would last long if they chose to adopt the second option.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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RoofGardener
2 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

We are talking about economical aspect of occupation here man. But let's be real, you can not defend Israeli policy over prophecy about what Hamas might do in future lol

Occupying power has certain obligations and is required by law to act like responsible entity.

Whatever Hamas does is not the reason for destruction of environment in West Bank, where there is no Hamas!

Similar problems are at both pieces of Palestinian claimed land so do you blame PA for situation in West Bank? They are mostly collaborators for God's sake and civilians still do not have their human rights respected.

....

There may be some truth in that. However, it's kinda irrelevant in the context of this thread.  I was reffering to HAMS because we where talking about underwater oil/gas fields, and hence 'territorial waters'. The PA doesn't HAVE any "territorial waters" in practice, because it lost its Mediterranean coastline to HAMAS control. 

Edited by RoofGardener

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RoofGardener
2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

The thing that gives Hamas recognition by the Palestinians is their role as freedom fighters against the oppressive and unlawful conduct of Israel.  With a two state solution they would have to change their manifesto or go underground as terrorists and I doubt they would last long if they chose to adopt the second option.

Hmm... very true. However, I really can't see HAMAS accepting a two-state solution. It would require a truly radical re-writing of their constitution. To the extent that they would lose their identity, and become just another part of the PA, along with FATAH and all the others. Palestinians would probably not vote for them any more. 

Not that they bother with elections over there. (None in Gaza since 2006, and none in the West Bank since.. umm... 2009 ??)

Edited by RoofGardener
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3 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

But let's be real, you can not defend Israeli policy over prophecy about what Hamas might do in future lol

Gaza proves what they do once they've received a concession.  There isn't anything funny about what they did and continue to do.  They have been very consistent in their behavior and there is no reason to expect them to change.  They've made it quite clear that they have no interest in peace or anything except removing Israel from the map of the M.E.  Israel doesn't need me to defend it.  They can do that just fine.

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RoofGardener
15 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I think you're right.

No way out for Israel. Israel can shut down the UN, thanks to the US. But they cannot shut down a billion angry Muslims

Closer to 1.8 Billion, I believe ?  Fortunately those 1.8 billion muslims are utterly powerless. They present neither a military or economic threat to Israel. Most of them couldn't point to Israel on a map. 

Not even on a map of Israel ! :P 

Edited by RoofGardener

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Sir Smoke aLot
2 hours ago, and then said:

Gaza proves what they do once they've received a concession. 

Since West Bank is devastated by occupation policies and they do not have armed resistance it is only logical to assume that Hamas was disappointed with status quo and tries to do something different. That is one of the rights which occupied population has and since Hamas is belonging to one of parties in this conflict those rights also apply to Hamas.

[edit] another quote :

2 hours ago, and then said:

Israel doesn't need me to defend it.  They can do that just fine.

Tell that to International Criminal Court :P

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

There may be some truth in that.

It is all truth. I will find time to list every obligation which is required by occupying state to comply with.

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

However, it's kinda irrelevant in the context of this thread.

That is most relevant to this thread since economical aspect and safety of occupied people fall under occupying force's obligations. Occupier is only temporary administer of the land, has no right over it and should focus all of their power to return occupied areas to the administration and sovereignty of occupied people. In Israel case this is permanent occupation and de facto annexation.

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I was reffering to HAMS because we where talking about underwater oil/gas fields, and hence 'territorial waters'. The PA doesn't HAVE any "territorial waters" in practice, because it lost its Mediterranean coastline to HAMAS control. 

Territorial waters law is applied to any nation which has access to sea. Even if that access is enclosed in a way that peninsula is blocking 'sight' to open sea - in that case nation which controls peninsula is required to provide access to open sea to the other nation.

In case of Gaza situation is quite clear and there is nothing which can deny them right to enjoy access to the sea either for fishing, exploit of resources or any other way of administering the region.

In 1947 West Bank (Palestinian part) had clear access to the sea too but since then Israel has annexed a lot of land and such move is not recognized by world nations. Regardless, Palestinians are willing to settle for 1967 borders which will effectively prevent them of any access to the coast in West Bank and also will make it legally impossible to play part in Gas fields at that place. Picture for reference :

Nov29LN-articleInline.jpg

I am not sure what PA has to do with this subject of Gas fields and water resources in general since i was clearly talking about different policies in West Bank. Dead Sea is another topic and Palestinians are forbidden to use their naturally acquired right on it. Actually, Israel, as occupying power, is required to assist them in economical development of industry needed for access to Dead sea resources.

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot

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Sir Smoke aLot
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Closer to 1.8 Billion, I believe ?  Fortunately those 1.8 billion muslims are utterly powerless. They present neither a military or economic threat to Israel. Most of them couldn't point to Israel on a map. 

Not even on a map of Israel ! :P 

OIC is thousand times stronger than tiny Israel and to compare Israel to any stronger Muslim country would be nonsense.

There is constant division among Muslim politic leadership and as such Muslim world can not make consensus over many issues. 

Anyhow this is not about who has bigger toys because Israel, on world scene is existing only because US support and as such is guaranteed protection both in Arab League and in United Nations. In operation ''Protective Edge'' majority of Arab League has condemned Hamas and was not vocal against Israeli war crimes.

That is very narrow minded opinion and also we have to understand that, for example Iran, they have position that ''anything which Palestinians decide is OK with Iran''. If Iran was wild rogue state Israel would not exist since Iran has capability to erase them using only conventional weapons. IT could 'at least' make irreparable damage to Israeli infrastructure. Keep in mind that we are talking about country smaller than Belgium and Netherlands, blocked by sea from one side and by ''enemies'' from the other.

Manpower and geography are essential in warfare. Israeli power in that regard is very low.

All that said we can understand now that this is political issue and as such Muslims were always content and restrained from taking harsher measures against Israel. So far we had only Jordan (until 1950's), Egypt (untill 1970's), Syria and Lebanon who had fight with Israel.

Every single one of mentioned Muslim majority countries had it's territory annexed by Israel. Lebanon (Sheba farms, parts of Golan), Syria (Golan), Egypt (almost lost Sinai, 15 years of Israeli occupation) and Jordan is out of the picture for long time.

That hardly constitutes ''Muslim world'' or 1.8 billion Muslims out of which many are closely affiliated with Zionists. 

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RoofGardener
4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

OIC is thousand times stronger than tiny Israel and to compare Israel to any stronger Muslim country would be nonsense.

Ummm... no.. you are wrong. 

The majority of the IOC countries are basket cases that can barely feed their own population, let alone make military threats beyond their borders. (many can't make military threats beyond their capital cities)

Consider the three largest Muslim countries... Indonesia, Pakistan and India. 

The have absolutely ZERO ability to threaten Israel, either militarily or economically. 

4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Anyhow this is not about who has bigger toys because Israel, on world scene is existing only because US support and as such is guaranteed protection both in Arab League and in United Nations. In operation ''Protective Edge'' majority of Arab League has condemned Hamas and was not vocal against Israeli war crimes.

the US didn't give meaningfull support during the existential battle for Israels existence in 1948. Nor did they do so in 1967.  The DID give significant support in 1973, but ONLY to offset the MASSIVE military support that the Soviet Union gave to Syria and Egypt. There where so many Soviet heavy-lift aircraft in the air during 1973 that you could have walked from Damascus to Moscow just by stepping on their wings :P 

4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

That is very narrow minded opinion and also we have to understand that, for example Iran, they have position that ''anything which Palestinians decide is OK with Iran''. If Iran was wild rogue state Israel would not exist since Iran has capability to erase them using only conventional weapons.

No they couldn't .. they couldn't even INCONVENIENCE Israel with their "conventional weapons", let alone "erase" them. If Iran attacked Israel with their missile systems, then Israel could "(a) destroy the bulk of their missiles in mid-flight, and (b) wreck havoc on Iranian Missile Launch Sites, to say nothing of Ports, Infrastructure (bridges, rail networks etc), and political buildings (including their Parliament). 

Just because we don't discuss Israeli medium-range rockets, doesn't mean they don't exist :P

Wake up, Sir Smoke a Lot :)

Edited by RoofGardener
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