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Black Red Devil

Beneath troubled waters

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Black Red Devil
9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm... very true. However, I really can't see HAMAS accepting a two-state solution. It would require a truly radical re-writing of their constitution. To the extent that they would lose their identity, and become just another part of the PA, along with FATAH and all the others. Palestinians would probably not vote for them any more. 

Not that they bother with elections over there. (None in Gaza since 2006, and none in the West Bank since.. umm... 2009 ??)

Well, they'll go underground as terrorists and with the strict control Israel has n place together with the cooperation of the PA, I doubt they would last long.

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Sir Smoke aLot
11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

The majority of the IOC countries are basket cases that can barely feed their own population, let alone make military threats beyond their borders. (many can't make military threats beyond their capital cities)

Interesting. Can you name countries which fall under such description? You said majority. I wasn't talking about military threats, Islam is not such ideology and as i said this is political issue.

11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Consider the three largest Muslim countries... Indonesia, Pakistan and India. 

The have absolutely ZERO ability to threaten Israel, either militarily or economically. 

India is not Muslim country. Pakistan is American favorite despite all sorts of connections and inability to secure it's territory. I am not knowledgeable about Indonesia enough but i feel that they are not warmongers. If they were and if Islam was religion of war then you would see millions of people going to battlefield in 1967 from those countries.

Actually, North Korea has sent more fighters (especially pilots) to assist Arabs in 1973 October war especially.

11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

the US didn't give meaningfull support during the existential battle for Israels existence in 1948. Nor did they do so in 1967.  The DID give significant support in 1973, but ONLY to offset the MASSIVE military support that the Soviet Union gave to Syria and Egypt. There where so many Soviet heavy-lift aircraft in the air during 1973 that you could have walked from Damascus to Moscow just by stepping on their wings :P 

''existential'' well many Israeli historians, even hard Zionists like Morris are accepting alternative explanations, based on evidence.

Not to mention disproportionate force in terms of technology, Israel was superior in technology by decades up until year 2000. Those are facts.

11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

If Iran attacked Israel with their missile systems, then Israel could "(a) destroy the bulk of their missiles in mid-flight

You are not aware of many studies which have shown how ''Iron Dome'' and other AA systems are ineffective against Hamas enhanced fireworks. What makes you think that they could defend against swarms of Iranian missiles? Just take a look at Saudi Arabia and Yemeni strikes. Where is that effective AA system to strike Houti missiles down? They share same supplier for most part ;)

11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Just because we don't discuss Israeli medium-range rockets, doesn't mean they don't exist

Why should we discuss common knowledge?  

Another time i remind you, economical aspect of occupation please ;) You are distracting from subject, again :D Nothing of this can wash obvious violations and discrimination.

For some man their dreams were destroyed by house demolitions :

Screen-Shot-2019-08-02-at-10.01.36-AM.pn

Some others cheered and laughed :

demo-e1563893289807.png

Taken from Mondoweiss. What does OIC has to do with this except that it should boycott Israel on every level. This is political and moral issue and war can not solve it.

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and then
 
 
 
 
1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

You are not aware of many studies which have shown how ''Iron Dome'' and other AA systems are ineffective against Hamas enhanced fireworks. What makes you think that they could defend against swarms of Iranian missiles? Just take a look at Saudi Arabia and Yemeni strikes. Where is that effective AA system to strike Houti missiles down? They share same supplier for most part ;)

Israel's AA systems are home-grown and they don't export them.  The number of failures are actually very small since they don't attempt to strike the unguided missiles unless they are calculated to strike a vital target.  Iran's missiles could well overwhelm the layered missile defenses of Israel and strike vital targets but this would only increase the determination by Israel to return the favor to Iran.  Once Iran's AA systems were blunted, they would be open to a rain of utter devastation and they know it.  

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Sir Smoke aLot
52 minutes ago, and then said:

Israel's AA systems are home-grown and they don't export them.  The number of failures are actually very small since they don't attempt to strike the unguided missiles unless they are calculated to strike a vital target.  Iran's missiles could well overwhelm the layered missile defenses of Israel and strike vital targets but this would only increase the determination by Israel to return the favor to Iran.  Once Iran's AA systems were blunted, they would be open to a rain of utter devastation and they know it.  

They are based on foreign modified equipment but over the years Israel has managed to produce the technology necessary for own production of AA systems.

Iran has quite respectful industry too. Question here is would Israel have chance to return the favor?

Israel is about 20k square kilometers in size and a lot of it, about 6 to 8 thousand is Negev desert. That is very tiny region. Thing is if Israel doesn't learn to provide security to Palestinian people they will continue to endanger their own population too, especially in the future. Let's be reasonable here, by disrespecting rights of Palestinians Israeli government is not doing favor to Israelis either.

Personally i see it kinda silly to compare Israel and Iran in military aspect. Sure, Israel has modern and strong army but they do not have superiority in technology anymore. Mike Pompeo, when he addresses growing problems between ''great powers'' he lists Russia, China and Iran in his speeches. So that is partly recognition of Iranian strength or at least we can look at it that way. 

Although time of great powers has long gone and we have world with many players when compared to situation after breakup of Soviet Union. Back then many of US weapons were superior, especially fighter jets which were untouchable above sky  of many nations. Israel had (and still has) luxury of being well supported and equipped by US weapons some of which are still superior but possible to counter by quite few armies.

This makes it good time for diplomacy and steps towards global peace if you ask me.

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RoofGardener
10 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Interesting. Can you name countries which fall under such description? You said majority. I wasn't talking about military threats, Islam is not such ideology and as i said this is political issue.

What.. the Islamic basket cases ? 

Well.. Comoros, Niger, Eritrea, The Gambia, Guinea-Bissau, Burkina Faso, Chad, Afghanistan, Mali, Guinea, Yemen, Djibouti, Tanzania, Pakistan, Senegal, Tajikistan .. I mean.. I can go on ? The majority of the 51 members of the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation are basket-case countries. 

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and then
16 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

They are based on foreign modified equipment but over the years Israel has managed to produce the technology necessary for own production of AA systems.

Iran has quite respectful industry too. Question here is would Israel have chance to return the favor?

Israel is about 20k square kilometers in size and a lot of it, about 6 to 8 thousand is Negev desert. That is very tiny region. Thing is if Israel doesn't learn to provide security to Palestinian people they will continue to endanger their own population too, especially in the future. Let's be reasonable here, by disrespecting rights of Palestinians Israeli government is not doing favor to Israelis either.

Personally i see it kinda silly to compare Israel and Iran in military aspect. Sure, Israel has modern and strong army but they do not have superiority in technology anymore. Mike Pompeo, when he addresses growing problems between ''great powers'' he lists Russia, China and Iran in his speeches. So that is partly recognition of Iranian strength or at least we can look at it that way. 

Although time of great powers has long gone and we have world with many players when compared to situation after breakup of Soviet Union. Back then many of US weapons were superior, especially fighter jets which were untouchable above sky  of many nations. Israel had (and still has) luxury of being well supported and equipped by US weapons some of which are still superior but possible to counter by quite few armies.

This makes it good time for diplomacy and steps towards global peace if you ask me.

 

16 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

They are based on foreign modified equipment but over the years Israel has managed to produce the technology necessary for own production of AA systems.

Iran has quite respectful industry too. Question here is would Israel have chance to return the favor?

Israel is about 20k square kilometers in size and a lot of it, about 6 to 8 thousand is Negev desert. That is very tiny region. Thing is if Israel doesn't learn to provide security to Palestinian people they will continue to endanger their own population too, especially in the future. Let's be reasonable here, by disrespecting rights of Palestinians Israeli government is not doing favor to Israelis either.

Personally i see it kinda silly to compare Israel and Iran in military aspect. Sure, Israel has modern and strong army but they do not have superiority in technology anymore. Mike Pompeo, when he addresses growing problems between ''great powers'' he lists Russia, China and Iran in his speeches. So that is partly recognition of Iranian strength or at least we can look at it that way. 

Although time of great powers has long gone and we have world with many players when compared to situation after breakup of Soviet Union. Back then many of US weapons were superior, especially fighter jets which were untouchable above sky  of many nations. Israel had (and still has) luxury of being well supported and equipped by US weapons some of which are still superior but possible to counter by quite few armies.

This makes it good time for diplomacy and steps towards global peace if you ask me.

It isn’t Israel that’s looking for conflict. Iran is the nation threatening annihilation of Israel  If the fight was between the two of them alone Israel might need nukes to prevail.  The mullahs should think long and hard about that reality 

 

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Sir Smoke aLot
18 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

What.. the Islamic basket cases ? 

Well.. Comoros, Niger, Eritrea, The Gambia, Guinea-Bissau, Burkina Faso, Chad, Afghanistan, Mali, Guinea, Yemen, Djibouti, Tanzania, Pakistan, Senegal, Tajikistan .. I mean.. I can go on ? The majority of the 51 members of the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation are basket-case countries. 

You compared group of Muslim majority countries with Israel, that was rather silly. What is the point of making that list?

10 hours ago, and then said:

It isn’t Israel that’s looking for conflict. Iran is the nation threatening annihilation of Israel

What does Iran have to do with Palestine? Iranian official position over the issue is that ''any deal which Palestinians agree with is OK with us''.

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RoofGardener
7 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

You compared group of Muslim majority countries with Israel, that was rather silly. What is the point of making that list?

You stated that the Muslim Nations could overpower Israel. 

I responded by pointing out that the majority of the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation are basket-case countries that couldn't overpower a lobster. 

PLEASE try and keep up, @Sir Smoke aLot :P 

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8 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

You compared group of Muslim majority countries with Israel, that was rather silly. What is the point of making that list?

What does Iran have to do with Palestine? Iranian official position over the issue is that ''any deal which Palestinians agree with is OK with us''.

Iran uses that conflict to sow destruction against Israel, don't be obtuse.  Since when does Islamic fundamentalism have to be logical?

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Sir Smoke aLot
13 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

You stated that the Muslim Nations could overpower Israel. 

I responded by pointing out that the majority of the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation are basket-case countries that couldn't overpower a lobster. 

PLEASE try and keep up, @Sir Smoke aLot :P 

You started to compare and sing praises of Israeli ability. Remember 2006. Israel basically surrendered to Hezbollah :D 

Of course that they can overpower it but they do not want that.

Are you so much in love with Israel that you even consider that they could stand against many nations? I told you already...

Israel, who had superior weaponry in early years have fought against Palestinian civilians and after they expelled them then Syria, Egypt and Jordan joined.

After that period fight was against Syria and Egypt only. Then time of Israeli superiority in weaponry ended. In 1973 Israel was caught off guard and Syrian battalions got into favorable position inside Israeli territory but they overextended and got pounded by Israeli Air Force. 

So, already in 1973 Israel have learned that they are not untouchable anymore and invasion of Lebanon proved this beyond doubt.

So instead of believing how Israel is superpower with 8 million people and 20,000 square km of territory (out of which 6 to 8 thousand is desert), on one side bordered by sea and on the other by ''enemies'' - you should admit that this is another time. Pantsir AA in Syria downs majority of Israeli missiles and it is old piece of equipment. To even think that Israel could stand against Iran or Egypt is just a wild dream.

There is no need to list Somalia or many other nations. Just be real and list facts in your mind. You made quite absurd claim of Israel being able to stand against Muslim countries by itself.

12 hours ago, and then said:

Iran uses that conflict to sow destruction against Israel, don't be obtuse.  Since when does Islamic fundamentalism have to be logical?

There is no single proof of Iranian direct assistance against Israel. They do not even assist Hamas anymore since Syrian conflict.

Your definition of Islamic fundamentalism kinda falls apart if ''fundamentalists'' have managed to develop space program. Such fundamentalist nation would never develop so much, their scientists would not publish thousands of papers yearly (which places them at world's top lists among first 5).

It kinda surprises me, illogical nature of fundamentalism. But where is logic here, you say things for which you have no evidence and reality contradicts your message, jet you still say it.

 

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RoofGardener
6 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

You started to compare and sing praises of Israeli ability. Remember 2006. Israel basically surrendered to Hezbollah :D 

Of course that they can overpower it but they do not want that.

Are you so much in love with Israel that you even consider that they could stand against many nations? I told you already...

Umm... I'm confused @Sir Smoke aLot. I was merely responding to your post #49... 

You stated that the OIC is ".. a thousand times stronger than tiny Israel", and I disagreed. 

The OIC is 57 states, with about 51 of them being "muslim majority" nations. However, the vast majority are complete basket cases, as I previously stated. I would suggest - on that basis, that they are certainly NOT "...a thousand times stronger than tiny Israel". Obviously, they have a thousand times the population of Israel, but that's about it. 

As for ".. to compare Israel to any stronger Muslim country would be nonsense"... well, I'm not actually entirely sure what you mean by that ? If you remove oil exports, then Israel's economy is bigger than almost every member of the OIC individually, including Pakistan and Egypt. (though it is dwarfed by Indonesia).

In terms of both economics and military, there are very few Muslim countries that are individually stronger than Israel ? 

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Sir Smoke aLot
1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm... I'm confused @Sir Smoke aLot. I was merely responding to your post #49... 

Which was reply to :

On 8/2/2019 at 3:55 PM, RoofGardener said:

Fortunately those 1.8 billion muslims are utterly powerless. They present neither a military or economic threat to Israel. Most of them couldn't point to Israel on a map. 

Not sure why you are confused now.

Thing is that there is no desire to destroy Israel within 1.8 mil Muslims. World nations, regardless of political shape, agreed around making political solution and it was vote of majority, large majority. 

As we can see in this topic, related to economical aspect of occupation of Palestine, Israel really makes not only troubles around waters but also on the ground. Instead of acting like responsible, democratic nation enshrined in civilization, human and divine laws they are doing contrary of what world nations agreed to.

And Israel has agreed too because Israel was under sanctions over the years, many times and by accepting to change - those sanctions were lifted. So OIC, in the end, was not enemy but has became a partner to Zionists.

Regardless, Israel has not changed it's policies nor does it comply with most essential requirement, to resolve occupation and return the land over to local administration authority in as shortest time as possible. Such situation has made enormous problem, both in security and mindset of people on both sides of the fence and it has became kind of culture in Israel. Culture which believes that it's Israeli sovereign and divine right to act as superior over Palestinians.

It resulted in turning West Bank into garbage disposal site which is now posing environmental and health risks for people in Israel and Jordan too, because waste was not properly recycled and disposed but simply dropped over West Bank.

 

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RoofGardener
28 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Which was reply to :

Not sure why you are confused now.

Thing is that there is no desire to destroy Israel within 1.8 mil Muslims. World nations, regardless of political shape, agreed around making political solution and it was vote of majority, large majority. 

As we can see in this topic, related to economical aspect of occupation of Palestine, Israel really makes not only troubles around waters but also on the ground. Instead of acting like responsible, democratic nation enshrined in civilization, human and divine laws they are doing contrary of what world nations agreed to.

And Israel has agreed too because Israel was under sanctions over the years, many times and by accepting to change - those sanctions were lifted. So OIC, in the end, was not enemy but has became a partner to Zionists.

Regardless, Israel has not changed it's policies nor does it comply with most essential requirement, to resolve occupation and return the land over to local administration authority in as shortest time as possible. Such situation has made enormous problem, both in security and mindset of people on both sides of the fence and it has became kind of culture in Israel. Culture which believes that it's Israeli sovereign and divine right to act as superior over Palestinians.

It resulted in turning West Bank into garbage disposal site which is now posing environmental and health risks for people in Israel and Jordan too, because waste was not properly recycled and disposed but simply dropped over West Bank.

 

Ahhhh yes.. I was responding to a comment made by Earl of Trumps, who said something about "Israel couldn't resist a billion muslims"... or words to that effect. 

Ummm.. what "sanctions" was Israel under, other than from Muslim states who imposed them in 1948 ? (and many of whom have since retracted them). 

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9 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Your definition of Islamic fundamentalism kinda falls apart if ''fundamentalists'' have managed to develop space program.

Care to explain why religious fanatics cannot also excel in scientific endeavors?  You almost sound eager to see Israel destroyed by her enemies.  I tell you this and you can laugh about it as you like but they will never be completely removed from that land again.  Not EVER.  Those who will slaughter huge numbers of the Jews of Israel in the future will still be vanquished UTTERLY and their remnant will be humbled and will serve the God of...Israel... not Muhammad.  In that day the moon god's time will be over.  Choose carefully who you will serve.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
14 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Ummm.. what "sanctions" was Israel under, other than from Muslim states who imposed them in 1948 ? (and many of whom have since retracted them)

And who decided to geographically divide Palestine in two other than some European nations of the UN? certainly not anyone from the ME.

It's called "culture war". We can do with their land anything *we* want. And as an added feature, it was your Jolly Ol' that sent 700,000 Euro Jews into the Levant, clearly setting up the biggest social engineering blunder of all time.  Not blaming you, RG.. just saying :lol:

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RoofGardener
4 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

And who decided to geographically divide Palestine in two other than some European nations of the UN? certainly not anyone from the ME.

It's called "culture war". We can do with their land anything *we* want. And as an added feature, it was your Jolly Ol' that sent 700,000 Euro Jews into the Levant, clearly setting up the biggest social engineering blunder of all time.  Not blaming you, RG.. just saying :lol:

The League of Nations grappled with the problem of what to do with the former nations that had been gobbled up - by force - by the defeated Islamic Ottoman Empire. And the levant was divided into THREE, not TWO. The land intended for the Arabs (as opposed to the jews) was gifted to TransJordan, to form the modern nation of Jordan. 

Everything that remained - from the River to the Sea - was supposed to be for the Jews. But the Arabs said "no" again. 

Umm... who, precisely, "SENT" the Jews into the Levant ? I was under the impression that the UK actually tried to PREVENT them from going ? 

As for "biggest social engineering blunder", I would have thought that the partition of India would take THAT crown ? 

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RoofGardener
11 hours ago, and then said:

Care to explain why religious fanatics cannot also excel in scientific endeavors?  You almost sound eager to see Israel destroyed by her enemies.  I tell you this and you can laugh about it as you like but they will never be completely removed from that land again.  Not EVER.  Those who will slaughter huge numbers of the Jews of Israel in the future will still be vanquished UTTERLY and their remnant will be humbled and will serve the God of...Israel... not Muhammad.  In that day the moon god's time will be over.  Choose carefully who you will serve.

Sunni religious fanatics tend NOT to be very good at science, as they are trained from childhood (or indoctrinated subsequently) to believe that the Koran is all that you need, and that scientific endeavour is flirting with blasphemy. This was epitomised - and codified - by a 12th Century Islamic Scholar called Abu Hamid al-Ghazali in his book "The Incoherence of the Phillosophers". This book was TREMENDOUSLY influential in Sunni circles, and its core message - that Western Scientific Method is a sin - persists today in ISIS and the Taliban. 

However, this is a SUNNI phillosophy, not a Shia one, and Iran is predominantly Shia. In addition, whilst Islam of ALL branches tends to mitigate against free-thinking, there is nothing to stop Muslim technicians from stealing and adapting specific technologies. In addition, muslims who are NOT in an Islamic environment (e.g. who are studying in a Western nation) are just as capable of rational scientific thought as any other person. It is only when they are in a saturated Islamic environment that such capabilities tend to be lost. Or punished. 

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.AKUMA.
On 28/07/2019 at 4:16 AM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Israel rapes who Israel wants to rape.  And where is the useless UN on all of this??

And people actually wonder why many people in the ME want to annihilate Israel. 

Is because Israel plays the anti-semitism card everytime they are criticised, its almost become a joke.

Its absolutely disgracefull how nations like the saudis and Israel get away with such gross violations of humans rights just because they have such powerfull political lobbies in the US. 

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RoofGardener
On 28/07/2019 at 4:16 AM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Israel rapes who Israel wants to rape.  And where is the useless UN on all of this??

And people actually wonder why many people in the ME want to annihilate Israel. 

Seven Arab countries attacked Israel within 24 hours of it calling itself into being. This was before any issue in the UN, or any issue with Palestinians, other than the Palestinian Revolt. 

Muslims hate Israel - and Jews - and want to annihilate it - based on religious grounds. The Levant was deemed to be an Islamic Wafq; once muslims have conquered a territory, Kufar are NEVER allowed to take control of it.  Al Quada, ISIS and the Taliban still bemoan the loss of Spain 400 years ago. 

Furthermore, the major players in the conflict (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan) had stated a desire to take control of various areas of "Israel" and the West Bank. The wishes of "The Palestinians" where NOT a consideration, other than in propaganda broadcasts. None of the invading countries wanted a separate "Palestinian" government. It was just an opportunistic land grab. 

"And people actually wonder why many people in the ME wanted to annihilate Israel" 

Well, wonder no longer. It is down to religious prejudice and a desire to steal (or re-conquer) the land. 

Edited by RoofGardener
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Sir Smoke aLot
On 8/5/2019 at 12:56 PM, RoofGardener said:

Ahhhh yes.. I was responding to a comment made by Earl of Trumps, who said something about "Israel couldn't resist a billion muslims"... or words to that effect. 

Ummm.. what "sanctions" was Israel under, other than from Muslim states who imposed them in 1948 ? (and many of whom have since retracted them). 

There was a lot of pressure in time when Israel closely cooperated (imagine) with South Africa apartheid regime. It took a lot of pressure and hard emotions for Israel to give up their alliance. And also there were instances when Europe as whole banned many products from Israel, also USA and rest of the world (more related to products from or affiliated with those from illegal settlements or products taken away from Palestinians)...

There are many examples and it was always ended with Israel making official promise to follow international law.

It was especially the case in early years of the state of Israel as you mentioned. 1973 was especially good year for Israeli outside connections and ME region started to became shaped in the image of oil industry and geopolitical strives from foreign nations. 

Anyhow, my point was that Israel promised a lot to get relieve... Israel got their needs respected and they lied that they will respect the needs of others.

Result of it is that today, if we look at it narrowly - Israel is great country with strong political alliance and economy. I would live there.

But when we look at it from every angle we realize that politically and morally it's one shallow, muddy pool of violence and lies, enshrined with ethnocratic system which now officially has 2nd grade citizens. This economical aspect of their violence towards Palestinians is only one part of horrors which the occupation makes.

Let's be honest, Israel is country to wish for... Palestine is not. There is problem somewhere in there. I usually decide by using balances, place good on one side and bad on the other...

Earl of Trumps made realistic comment. To think differently borders fanaticism. But that is just my opinion. What makes you think that he had war in mind? I truly doubt that Israel could survive even partial sanctions to those which Iran endures for decades. 

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Sir Smoke aLot
42 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

even Arab countries attacked Israel within 24 hours of it calling itself into being.

Israel had fight with forces from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. Arab countries often got support from other nations, even from North Korea. Training or few fighter jet crews here and there but burden was on Jordan, Syria and Egypt who lost tens of thousands of troops in wars with Israel.

Jordan made deal with Israel relatively soon. Egypt followed. Syria was left alone and has never made peace deal with Israel. After Jordan and Egypt were out of the picture Israel attacked Lebanon. That is historical fact my friend.

Every damn support from other nations was symbolic rather than deciding. Equipment used by Arabs back then and up until 2006 was inferior to Israeli weaponry and victims on Syrian side portrait this perfectly.

Can you name those 7 countries? That is simply not truth and i can back that up.

16 hours ago, and then said:

Care to explain why religious fanatics cannot also excel in scientific endeavors?  You almost sound eager to see Israel destroyed by her enemies.

You have hard opinion about Iran and i can not discuss it properly with you. As if we are in discussion about ''existence of God''. That is silly to discuss if our beliefs are totally different don't you think?

But i will say this - even tho that there is clear contradiction in definitions of fundamentalism and scientific progress you still do not change for one bit.

I gave you honest answer and opinion and your reply is, again, ''my alleged wish to see Israel destroyed''. See, that accusation holds the same weight as accusations against Iran. There is a reason why only Britain has agreed with US stance to form coalition for protection of naval trade routes in Persian Gulf.

Other nations, like Germany, said clearly that Iran is providing safety there, as it did in whole history of trade in that region. 

World is not what we believe it is, it's far more complicated than that. Like in show Battlestar Galactica in which we see how politics make so much wrong even in time when survival of human kind is endangered. That is people, we all are emotional, love to be right, love to have authority, power... To be respected. And such stances often make wrong, even from good intentions.

It's easy to have someone to blame but it's hard to accept some of your own faults. We are all guilty from it but in the end, when dreams shatter... We came to agreement. Or die for our dreams. Did you watch that show maybe?

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RoofGardener
7 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

There was a lot of pressure in time when Israel closely cooperated (imagine) with South Africa apartheid regime. It took a lot of pressure and hard emotions for Israel to give up their alliance. And also there were instances when Europe as whole banned many products from Israel, also USA and rest of the world (more related to products from or affiliated with those from illegal settlements or products taken away from Palestinians)...

....

Umm.. I'm not sure that is correct, @Sir Smoke aLot ? 

According to the Wikipedia article here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel#Arms_embargoes , there have been very few boycotts of Israel by national governments. (France in 1967, Spain in 2014, and Britain (possibly) in the same year.). I am excluding embargoes by Arab/Muslim countries, as these are done on religious and dogmatic grounds. 

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Sir Smoke aLot
9 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm.. I'm not sure that is correct, @Sir Smoke aLot ? 

According to the Wikipedia article here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel#Arms_embargoes , there have been very few boycotts of Israel by national governments. (France in 1967, Spain in 2014, and Britain (possibly) in the same year.). I am excluding embargoes by Arab/Muslim countries, as these are done on religious and dogmatic grounds. 

There were many instances of economical pressure, especially after first intifada and Israeli officials understood the danger of such development. Ministry offices were made to fight that, to portrait Israel in better light. I was not talking only related to weapons, economy in general. Products from illegal settlements, or affiliated with them are still sanctioned by many nations and are forbidden to be sold. EU has such position for decades.

This is not ultimate truth, it's debatable but i say that it is pretty much correct and can back that up by official chronology from Israeli official sources and those from EU, USA or elsewhere.

While Wikipedia is great site for reference to events it is not credible and there were many cases in which Israeli propagandists were caught in mass editing of it. It was supported by ministry office. Not that i wan't to discredit your source, arms embargoes were not really subject of my talk here. Wiki is good for basic reference but one has to check other sources. Those listed on Wiki are usually news articles :)

Why do you think that Muslim nations embargoes Israel on religious grounds? As if they had no reason to boycott it? I dare to say that you do not believe in that even tho you said it. [edit] to add: SA was suspected of having ties with Israel since mid 1960's, picture was more clear after Reagan's visit to SA in 1970's which resulted in alliance based on $.

Israel has now officially stated that it has ties with a lot of Arab nations. Even Bibi said it but refused to give more details for now, because environment is not ready jet. His words. Where is ''religious ground here''?

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot

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RoofGardener
4 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Israel had fight with forces from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. Arab countries often got support from other nations, even from North Korea. Training or few fighter jet crews here and there but burden was on Jordan, Syria and Egypt who lost tens of thousands of troops in wars with Israel.

Jordan made deal with Israel relatively soon. Egypt followed. Syria was left alone and has never made peace deal with Israel. After Jordan and Egypt were out of the picture Israel attacked Lebanon. That is historical fact my friend.

Every damn support from other nations was symbolic rather than deciding. Equipment used by Arabs back then and up until 2006 was inferior to Israeli weaponry and victims on Syrian side portrait this perfectly.

Ahhh.. that's not true in the case of the 1948 Arab/Muslim invasion, @Sir Smoke aLot. Israel was pathetically under-resourced in terms of both quantity - and quality - of weapons. At the start of the war, they had no artillery, no armour (tanks or APC's), no military aircraft (neither fighters or bombers), and no heavy machine guns. They had enough rifles and light automatic weapons (sten guns etc) for about 2/3rds of their troops. 

The Arab armies, on the other hand, had long-range artillery, tanks, APC's, Spitfires and Russiain Ilyushin bombers. 

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RoofGardener
38 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

There were many instances of economical pressure, especially after first intifada and Israeli officials understood the danger of such development. Ministry offices were made to fight that, to portrait Israel in better light. I was not talking only related to weapons, economy in general. Products from illegal settlements, or affiliated with them are still sanctioned by many nations and are forbidden to be sold. EU has such position for decades.

 

That's very interesting @Sir Smoke aLot. I am aware of many private boycott organisations, and there is of course the Palestinian-led  "BDS" movement. But I was not aware of ANY governmental boycotts ? (oh.. with the exception of Iceland perhaps ? ). 

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