Mass shooting at California Garlic Fest

[highdesert50]

Until we are able to see through the eyes of another, to walk their walk, to empathize, we go nowhere. How we proceed is how we perceive. Hate fosters fear. Love fosters tolerance. To change an attitude one must change a belief. Decide.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Big Jim said:

Our inner cities seem to be more dangerous today than any game land ever was.  As they get ever more dangerous and as cities try to revitalize and encourage urban living, cultures are going to clash.  Right now the predators have all the guns.  In some of the worst places law abiding citizens are prohibited from having guns.  If the law abiding faction is going to remain urban and survive people will begin to see guns as a necessary tool in their every day lives.  Here in Ohio, the case for concealed carry permits originated with a man who made just such an argument.  His business took him into urban jungles and he sued for his right to protect himself.   

Ironic that our supposedly more civilized and progressive urban centers are also the most gun-violent places.places to live. 

[Big Jim]

46 minutes ago, highdesert50 said:

Until we are able to see through the eyes of another, to walk their walk, to empathize, we go nowhere. How we proceed is how we perceive. Hate fosters fear. Love fosters tolerance. To change an attitude one must change a belief. Decide.

Did you ever work for Hallmark?

[Golden Duck]

7 hours ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

Obviously it didn't.  I didn't say it did.  I'm wondering how we could prevent incidents like this.  Any ideas?

An outright ban doesn't work unless comprehensive, as shown here.  Probably a bad strategy to begin with anyway.

'Cooling off' doesn't work either, given the amount of time elapsed.

Age? Let their wee brains grow a bit?  Might stop some of these incidents.  But definitely not others.

Could implement strict security at all food festivals.  But that'd be cost-prohibitive and still wouldn't work given incidents at secure places.

Could let every one carry guns at the festival.  But that'd likely result in a widely increased number of casualties and accidental discharges. 

It's a tough one.  A lot of availability.  A lot of bad people.

Solution that have worked in other countries won't work in the USA.  Make guns free or put a price cap on them.

[Tatetopa]

7 hours ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

Obviously it didn't.  I didn't say it did.  I'm wondering how we could prevent incidents like this.  Any ideas?

Yep.  Let people keep their guns, it is their Constitutional right.

Tag a couple of dozen web sites that  mass shooters visit and check Facebook and twitter comments  for frequent commentors.  When somebody indicates they have had enough and want to go out in a blaze of glory they should be visited by a Swat team and a psychologist. Get employers to report it when a discharged employee says he is going to get even.   Talk to high schools. find out from teachers and students who is threatening other people.    Believe it when a girl says she broke up with a boy and he told her she will pay for that.  Check on those individuals.   It won't solve all problems but it may stop a few shooters from mass shootings.

 

[Black Red Devil]

4 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Yep.  Let people keep their guns, it is their Constitutional right.

Tag a couple of dozen web sites that  mass shooters visit and check Facebook and twitter comments  for frequent commentors.  When somebody indicates they have had enough and want to go out in a blaze of glory they should be visited by a Swat team and a psychologist. Get employers to report it when a discharged employee says he is going to get even.   Talk to high schools. find out from teachers and students who is threatening other people.    Believe it when a girl says she broke up with a boy and he told her she will pay for that.  Check on those individuals.   It won't solve all problems but it may stop a few shooters from mass shootings.

 

Don't you think these measures would bring more Police and State control over citizens?  The reason you have a Police force that basically shoots first and asks questions later is because they operate under uncertainty, unsure if someone they stop for a routine check pulls out one of the numerous guns you have circulating around in your society.  My two cents worth and I know non Americans (and especially Aussies) are looked upon as if we're coming here to lecture when mass shooting occur, which isn't true at least on my behalf, but it seems to me you guys are brainstorming all these optional solutions when you have one simple centerpiece problem, the easy accessibility to guns. 

A Constitution can be changed if all political parties have strong views on an issue and while totally removing guns, unless obtained under special permits, won't eliminate guns circulating in the black market, it will make it harder for the mentally ill and frustrated elements obtaining them and these are the individuals causing most mass shootings.  Gangsters usually shoot other gangsters and the Constitutional excuse you need bear arms against the Government if necessary, is outdated and laughable really by today standards.

[Tatetopa]

We have had quite a few discussions on this site about that.   I once thought that rifles and pistols were about self protection and hunting.  I was schooled that the Second Amendment is about overthrowing the government when you think it is out of line.    Some people on this site believe they will  solve the countries problems by taking up arms when they have too much that they disagree with..

 It seems like America is a lot more like Afghanistan than Australia in that respect. I think  attempts at some rational  approach to gun control will  enhance that last stand mentality. 

Some portion of the population is willing to sacrifice other people's children  and maybe even  their own family members  for that unrestricted right to bear arms..  I don't think that will change soon.

1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

Don't you think these measures would bring more Police and State control over citizens? 

Yes I do.  Some of the same people are law and order supporters, so one would presume they  are in favor of more focused

tate oversight and intervention.  People have a right to say what they want, and to bear arms, but there in not much in the Constitution to prevent surveillance of suspicious individuals.  That might become what websites you visit and what comments you make or other indications of your mental health  rather than what you look like or how you drive a car.

1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

Constitutional excuse you need bear arms against the Government if necessary, is outdated and laughable really by today standards.

Some people very much fear socialism, communism, progressiveness, and liberalism.  They are much opposed to more of that philosophy in our government.   For some at least that philosophy is not out of date.  

 

[Michelle]

9 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

We have had quite a few discussions on this site about that.   I once thought that rifles and pistols were about self protection and hunting.  I was schooled that the Second Amendment is about overthrowing the government when you think it is out of line.    Some people on this site believe they will  solve the countries problems by taking up arms when they have too much that they disagree with..

Be real...it's like three people. 

[Tatetopa]

3 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Be real...it's like three people. 

Do you think it is so few?  I was never sure how many people felt that way.  

[Michelle]

Just now, Tatetopa said:

Do you think it is so few?  I was never sure how many people felt that way.  

On this site it's three people that push the idea. The majority of us own one for self defense only.

[highdesert50]

2 hours ago, Big Jim said:

Did you ever work for Hallmark?

No, but I did work the rural border as a first responder paramedic for a number of years. Can you imagine how I felt, when cutting the clothing from a 'travelers' body, I saw a small replica Statue of Liberty fall from a pocket. A life was gone, and I made the decision to carry that person's hope and belief for a better life. I spent this past weekend working with border families dealing with stress and suicide. That's not Hallmark. It is, however, my choice to turn adversity into a more positive outcome. Our beliefs alter the way we perceive and our subsequent actions and attitude. Decide.

[Unusual Tournament]

On 29/07/2019 at 6:57 PM, ExpandMyMind said:

I actually thought about my comment while walking my dog and realised - gun control or not - that these events happen at all signify something deeply wrong with a society.

Society or simply people losing their humanity. And this is what gun control is all about. How do you stop the looney from getting hold of guns. 

[Big Jim]

9 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

How do you stop the looney from getting hold of guns.

That is the million dollar question. We need to change our attitudes about mental illness as much as we need to change our minds about guns.  As I understand it, the method so far has been to ask a person if they're crazy.  Naturally, the answer is always no.  There are written tests to assess a person's personality and mental state.  Perhaps these should be incorporated into the background check process.  There also needs to be consistency across the board.   Currently, only licensed dealers need to do background checks while private sales and gun shows are unregulated.  Even loonies can see through this.  Imagine if we did the same for driver's licenses where the state made you take a test but you could buy one on the street that was just as valid.  

[aztek]

15 hours ago, highdesert50 said:

Until we are able to see through the eyes of another, to walk their walk, to empathize, we go nowhere. How we proceed is how we perceive. Hate fosters fear. Love fosters tolerance. To change an attitude one must change a belief. Decide.

cool story, but real works works differently

[aztek]

1 hour ago, Big Jim said:

That is the million dollar question. We need to change our attitudes about mental illness as much as we need to change our minds about guns.  As I understand it, the method so far has been to ask a person if they're crazy.  Naturally, the answer is always no.  There are written tests to assess a person's personality and mental state.  Perhaps these should be incorporated into the background check process.  There also needs to be consistency across the board.   Currently, only licensed dealers need to do background checks while private sales and gun shows are unregulated.  Even loonies can see through this.  Imagine if we did the same for driver's licenses where the state made you take a test but you could buy one on the street that was just as valid.  

have you been to a gun show lately? you wont buy any gun with no paperwork, it was that way for decades, gun show loophole is a lie.

[highdesert50]

12 minutes ago, aztek said:

cool story, but real works works differently

Ultimately, we must decide whether we are to be victims or survivors, to live in fear or live productively. We must decide if we are to be complacent or responsible for our children's welfare -- New Zealand turned around its gun laws in six days. Time to act as adults and recognize that it's not always about me. Each one of us can make difference if we so decide, one person at a time. That is real. Decide.

[aztek]

10 minutes ago, highdesert50 said:

Ultimately, we must decide whether we are to be victims or survivors, to live in fear or live productively. We must decide if we are to be complacent or responsible for our children's welfare -- New Zealand turned around its gun laws in six days. Time to act as adults and recognize that it's not always about me. Each one of us can make difference if we so decide, one person at a time. That is real. Decide.

again cool story,  but i'm keeping my guns, you can give yours up, 

[Big Jim]

57 minutes ago, aztek said:

have you been to a gun show lately? you wont buy any gun with no paperwork, it was that way for decades, gun show loophole is a lie.

I've never been to a gun show, never owned a gun.  Personally, I don't like them.  They scare me, mainly because I'm somewhat of a klutz.  But I've always been supportive of our second amendment rights because I view the Constitution as a contract, not a menu.  It defines our country as well as our individual rights.  Ignoring any guarantee leads to ignoring others.  Those who want to eliminate the second because they don't like guns wouldn't dream of eliminating the one that gave citizenship to blacks or the vote to women.  Just because I don't want one shouldn't mean that you can't have one.  

[aztek]

Just now, Big Jim said:

I've never been to a gun show, never owned a gun.  

i go to gun shows several times a year, i do not buy guns there,  but they have plenty of interesting things besides guns and ammo,    i can tell you anyone who is at a table, must run BC and file proper transfer/sale paperwork. in 20 years i go there i saw maybe 2 guys selling their own rifles privately,  and when they come into the show with intent to sell, a cop at the door checks it out,  records your info and gun sn. it has been like this for decades.   at one show in PA a seller would not even let me look at pistols cuz i had out of state gun permit,.  the lies about gun shows are aimed at people who do not really know what really happens there, and they sure are lies

[highdesert50]

10 minutes ago, aztek said:

again cool story,  but i'm keeping my guns, you can give yours up, 

Life is not always about entitlement, it is also about self-sacrifice. Change of belief takes time and courage. Remember, too, that maintaining an attitude of fear makes one a victim because it fosters contempt, hate, and an inability to live life to its fullest. It's a deep hole, but eventually we must reckon whether or not a belief is ultimately self-defeating not only to us but to those with whom we interact.

[aztek]

27 minutes ago, highdesert50 said:

Life is not always about entitlement, it is also about self-sacrifice. Change of belief takes time and courage.

so get some courage and change yours, why do you think it is my beliefs that need to be changed?  I strongly believe that it is you who need to change yours.  not to mention owning guns is a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, not entitlement, and not wanting to be a victim is exactly why i'm keeping them. 

i'm curious how are you planing to not become a victim with no means of protecting yourself????  or you keep yours but preach to others to lose theirs?

Edited July 31, 2019 by aztek

[Gunn]

1 hour ago, highdesert50 said:

Ultimately, we must decide whether we are to be victims or survivors, to live in fear or live productively. We must decide if we are to be complacent or responsible for our children's welfare -- New Zealand turned around its gun laws in six days. Time to act as adults and recognize that it's not always about me. Each one of us can make difference if we so decide, one person at a time. That is real. Decide.

New Zealand does not have a Mexican border or borders to have to contend with weapons being smuggled across those borders. New Zealand has at least some kind of universal health care like Australia and England, in order to deal with their suicidal citizens, when a citizen's mental illness has pushed them off the deep end. We do not. Have you ever seen the suicide rates in those countries?  Our suicide rates are much higher then what they have and these mass shooters are mostly suicidal. So no philosophical phrases or words will fix that, until those other ignored things (like an elephant in the room) are fixed first. Contemplate.

 

[aztek]

entire new zeland has half of population of my city alone, and very low population density, it is also an island, they never had gun problems to begin with, neither did Australia, (their entire gun ban was a result to 1 gang shooting basically) and if you look at the stats violent crimes went up after confiscation. 

[Gunn]

13 minutes ago, aztek said:

entire new zeland has half of population of my city alone, and very low population density, it is also an island, they never had gun problems to begin with, neither did Australia, (their entire gun ban was a result to 1 gang shooting basically) and if you look at the stats violent crimes went up after confiscation. 

Yeah but you know the population difference doesn't register with the anti-gun supporters. As they keep spitting back at us - If it works there, well it should work here, which of course is a illogically speculation; while not taking in consideration the Mexican border and mental health system issues we have.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Gunn

[RoofGardener]

Sooo.. after 13 pages of speculation.. does anyone actually KNOW why they did this ? 

I haven't followed the story that closely.. does anyone know who the shooter IS yet ? 

Edited July 31, 2019 by RoofGardener