Mass shooting at California Garlic Fest

[Big Jim]

8 hours ago, Raptor Witness said:

A kid like this could easily have picked a school, but he didn't. I wonder why?  Why choose a target so close to home? 

It is a pointless waste of time to try to find reason in an insane person's actions.  When they are captured and given a chance to explain, their own reasons are detached from reality and are often based in fantasy.  Remember Hinkley?  He shot Reagan to impress Jody Foster.  The Son of Sam killer said he got instructions from the neighbor's dog.  If they were anything like the rest of us they wouldn't shoot anyone at all.  In the end there is no reason. That's hard for most of us to accept, since we generally have reasons for what we do.  Crazy people live in their own world but their actions take place in ours.

[Gunn]

10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Thank him as much as you want but he's telling you porkies just to justify his violent habit so he can keep his toys and above all, he's showing a complete lack of concern for a problem that is regularly killing kids.  Australia hasn't a gun or crime problem on the same scale the US has.  In fact before gun control took affect in the 90's Australia had a high rate of crime in percentage compared to other western nations.  Here, figures from the Institute of Criminology from 1988.  Just look at the first graph.

Nowadays the US has 4 times higher the crime rate (not only guns) that Australia and most other western countries have.  link  The US is 99th in the world (Australia 164th similar with France, UK, Portugal, Netherlands etc.), preceded by Central/South American and African tin pot corrupt dictatorships infested by criminal lord barons who rule over uneducated and poverty stricken populations.  Then again, you're better than Russia, run by the one and only supreme world dictator.

I know you didn't compare, but he did.  The US has the problem, he's trying to put other western nations in the same pot so he can justify why it's necessary to keep his toys.  Puzzling how these toys are so necessary in defending against murderers and yet when these mass shootings occur, despite the numerous guns you have circulating around, nobody ever cuts down the shooter/s.  Only when the police come does the shooter get killed or kill himself.

 

I'm not speaking for Aztek when I say this and the crime rate statistic difference in comparison between our two countries is between you and him, I don't care, but I got two things to say to you.....

1. We have a constitutional right (2nd Amendment) that gives us the natural right to buy and own a gun, whether it's for hunting, self defense, target practice. We never need  justification, it's our right. If you can't deal with that, that's your problem.

2. Anytime I see somebody call guns "toys" or thinks we consider guns "toys" I can tell they are ignorant and don't know a damn thing about guns and how much we take into consideration the seriousness of owning and operating a lethal weapon. You don't personally know any gun owners over here and how much we've been instructed in gun safety/training.

*snip*

Edited August 2, 2019 by Saru
Removed inflammatory remark

[DingoLingo]

On 8/1/2019 at 12:21 AM, aztek said:

you are not the only one who seen things,  i grew up on Coney island in 70s and 80s,  i have seen plenty of kids shot, stabbed, slashed with razors..., but you know what i have not seen, an armed person be a victim as much, actually almost never, unless shot by cops during shootout. 

other countries never had 250+ year old gun culture, they do not have about a billion of guns in citizens hands, their violent crimes are not much different than ours, they may have less gun  murders, but they use other means, see stats on Australia, see how armed home invasions, and violent crime WENT UP after gun ban,  see how arson replaced guns, you really need to familiarize yourself with actual numbers, stats and consequences , cuz now it does not seem like you have anything other than hallmark speech

  they also do not honor peoples ability to defend themselves,  not really a good example to go  by. 

 

and this is the one thing a lot of you do not understand.

Australia's gun laws were not to stop violent crimes.. they were to stop gun related violent crimes.. after Port Arthur happend the gov basically said.. never again..

and pretty much the rest of us lot agreed.. 

and as I have said before.. Gun Control works.. but what worked for australia would not work for america.. for that to happen you would need a total cultural/attitute change.. which would not happen because currently have the 2nd ammendment (which can be changed afterall it is a ammendment.. and I think one day it will be changed)

but to start down that track.. all sides of the table need to sit down and talk.. work out a common ground to work with.. be it restrict the amount of guns someone can own.. or restrict different classes of guns.. 

[ChrLzs]

9 hours ago, Gunn said:

1. We have a constitutional right (2nd Amendment) that gives us the natural right to buy and own a gun, whether it's for hunting, self defense, target practice. We never need  justification, it's our right.

Sounds like it is much more than a 'right' to some.

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If you can't deal with that, that's your problem.

I'd say it was more of a problem for those killed and their friends and families.  Especially so when they find out what sort of people had the weapons and how they got them.

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2. Anytime I see somebody call guns "toys" or thinks we consider guns "toys" I can tell they are ignorant and don't know a damn thing about guns and how much we take into consideration the seriousness of owning and operating a lethal weapon. You don't personally know any gun owners over here and how much we've been instructed in gun safety/training

Nice attitude!  Who was it exactly that called them toys?  Do those who go on horrific sprees like this 'take into consideration the seriousness of owning and operating a lethal weapon'?  Should everyone have the 'right' to own a nuclear weapon, a rocket launcher, a machine gun, a fully automatic, a semi...?  Where would you draw the line and why?  Do you think the current systems and checks are working well in the USA?

[+and-then]

On 7/29/2019 at 3:30 PM, Imaginarynumber1 said:

The oft repeated "fact" that Democrats want open borders appears to be nothing but a myth.

Why?  Because none of them have so far stood in front of a camera and said those precise words?  Their actions make it impossible to draw any OTHER conclusion.  Tens of thousands are flooding over the border and they attempt to block every step to stop or even slow the flow.  Don't be ridiculous.  

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

despite the numerous guns you have circulating around, nobody ever cuts down the shooter/s

That's because the cowards that do the mass killing almost always choose places where the government has seen fit to make them "gun free zones".  It just goes to show how rational that stance is.  There are thousands of instances every year where people successfully defend themselves against attack with their own gun.  Americans aren't killing people in OZ with our guns.  You, therefore don't get to vote on our preferences.  

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, DingoLingo said:

Australia's gun laws were not to stop violent crimes.. they were to stop gun related violent crimes.. after Port Arthur happend the gov basically said.. never again..

and pretty much the rest of us lot agreed.. 

I respect your choice.  It works for you because the majority WANT it.  That simply isn't the case here and it probably never will be.  We just ask for the same respect for our choice.

[+Hammerclaw]

[Imaginarynumber1]

41 minutes ago, and then said:

 Don't be ridiculous.  

Don't exaggerate and spread misinformation. 

[Imaginarynumber1]

29 minutes ago, and then said:

I respect your choice.  It works for you because the majority WANT it.  That simply isn't the case here and it probably never will be.  We just ask for the same respect for our choice.

Yeah. I just don't understand why the test of the world won't respect our choice to gun down children with automatic weapons. The hell is their problem?

[Gunn]

2 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Sounds like it is much more than a 'right' to some.

 

Your statement is vague. Clarify.

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I'd say it was more of a problem for those killed and their friends and families.  Especially so when they find out what sort of people had the weapons and how they got them.

It's specifically a mental health system problem. Not a inanimate object problem that requires a human to operate that inanimate object. It's like blaming vehicles instead of the driver/operator for running over people.

Quote

Nice attitude!

Hey! I felt like he had a condensing attitude, not just to Aztek, but to all of us with his judgment on how we perceive the ownership of having a gun. So what goes around, comes around.

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Who was it exactly that called them toys?

Are you pulling my leg with this question or did you not read BRD's post?

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Do those who go on horrific sprees like this 'take into consideration the seriousness of owning and operating a lethal weapon'? 

Why are you asking me? Why don't you ask the lunatic killers that do such horrible things across the world, whether they use a gun, sword, knife, vehicle, bombs. Do you think just because some of us who own guns here in the U.S. that we are all lunatics that want to kill people for insane reasons?

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Should everyone have the 'right' to own a nuclear weapon, a rocket launcher, a machine gun, a fully automatic, a semi...? 

Is that not up to the U.S. supreme court and their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment? It seems they thought so when the issue was brought up and they ruled on it. So write a letter or send a email to them and ask them.

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 Where would you draw the line and why?

The same line the U.S. supreme court has determined. They interpreted the 2nd Amendment as to what we can have and not have. As far as I'm concerned, what they say is fair enough and reasonable.

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 Do you think the current systems and checks are working well in the USA?

No. IMO our mental health system needs to be fixed, we got veterans with PTSD walking into V.A. parking lots and killing themselves because they can't get the proper mental and physical health care. That's just one of the many mental health problems among a hundred. And the Mexican border needs to be maintained in any way necessary to keep the Cartel from smuggling in weapons illegally with drugs and sold on the black market to circumvent our current gun laws. No amount of further gun control is going to work until at least those two things are fixed.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Gunn

[DingoLingo]

2 hours ago, and then said:

I respect your choice.  It works for you because the majority WANT it.  That simply isn't the case here and it probably never will be.  We just ask for the same respect for our choice.

not going against your choice mate.. what makes the rest of the world scratch our heads is you do not want to do anything to change the situation.. 

 

[ChrLzs]

1 hour ago, Gunn said:

Do you think just because some of us who own guns here in the U.S. that we are all lunatics that want to kill people for insane reasons?

?????  No, I don't.

I'll leave it at this, as that sort of approach adequately represents the problem here.  I didn't say that and if all you are going to do is get angry at what people do NOT say, then this debate is worthless. To clarify:

NO - I do not think that you are all lunatics.

YES - I already agreed that what works in Oz won't work in America as it's a very different culture and very few folk here are concerned at the fact they can't easily own a semi-automatic or much worse.   Thing is, it's not that difficult to get a gun licence here... unless you want a 'weapon of mass destruction'.  I think our laws are sensible, and I think your laws could be more sensible.  I agree that your checks before ownership needs to be a lot stricter, and should vary (ie be much more strict) for weapons that are, shall we say, 'rapid fire'.

I ask for no 'respect' for our choices - people are 100% welcome to disagree and suggest improvements.  That would seem to be more sensible than demanding respect....

 

Bye.

[+and-then]

3 hours ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

Yeah. I just don't understand why the test of the world won't respect our choice to gun down children with automatic weapons. The hell is their problem?

Do you choose to do that?  I don't.  99.99% of gun owners DON'T.  I don't give a damn about your opinion of MY rights any more than you care what I think about yours.  Cry a river to someone who cares to listen.  My rights don't end where your feelings begin.

[+and-then]

On 7/31/2019 at 5:12 PM, RavenHawk said:

You’re not saying it in so many words.  And those perceptions are driven by those that would like nothing more than to usurp the Constitution.  So that they no longer have to pretend.  A few years ago, when there was still a Democratic Party, no Democrat would dare espouse what they freely do in the open now.  They are desperate because they are losing power.

They cannot even see the disconnect in their own rhetoric.  On one hand, they bewail Trump and his authoritarianism - so-called - yet they would take away their only ability to fight to remove him or one like him in the future.  They are just mindless Lemmings.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, DingoLingo said:

not going against your choice mate.. what makes the rest of the world scratch our heads is you do not want to do anything to change the situation.. 

The reason for that is simple but difficult to understand or accept for someone on the outside looking in.  There is a group within the U.S. that is working assiduously to remove 2A.  They attempt to chip away at every opportunity and lately some have even been bold enough to be honest about their endgame.  They want the guns out of citizens hands altogether.  Since our legal system works on precedent, any rights we give up are gone for future citizens as well.  2A is critical to our freedom and our Founders understood this.  It may seem silly or incomprehensible outside the country but here we take it deadly seriously. 

[Imaginarynumber1]

30 minutes ago, and then said:

Do you choose to do that?  I don't.  99.99% of gun owners DON'T.  I don't give a damn about your opinion of MY rights any more than you care what I think about yours.  Cry a river to someone who cares to listen.  My rights don't end where your feelings begin.

So you're okay with kids being gunned down, then, so long as your RIGHTS are protected, huh? You gun nuts are ****ing insane.

[Imaginarynumber1]

20 minutes ago, and then said:

 2A is critical to our freedom and our Founders understood this. 

No. The understood that IN THERE TIME is was a good idea.

 

Quote

It may seem silly or incomprehensible outside the country but here we take it deadly seriously. 

It is silly and incomprehensible because you ignore logic and reason in favor of a cheap replacement for your own masculinity. (Or lack there of)

Edited August 2, 2019 by Imaginarynumber1

[Black Red Devil]

9 hours ago, Gunn said:

I'm not speaking for Aztek when I say this and the crime rate statistic difference in comparison between our two countries is between you and him, I don't care, but I got two things to say to you.....

1. We have a constitutional right (2nd Amendment) that gives us the natural right to buy and own a gun, whether it's for hunting, self defense, target practice. We never need  justification, it's our right. If you can't deal with that, that's your problem.

2. Anytime I see somebody call guns "toys" or thinks we consider guns "toys" I can tell they are ignorant and don't know a damn thing about guns and how much we take into consideration the seriousness of owning and operating a lethal weapon. You don't personally know any gun owners over here and how much we've been instructed in gun safety/training.

*snip* I don't give a rats what your amendment says.  I was just reacting to what he falsely said about violent crimes in other countries when trying to justify your own home grown problems and 2) you can call them honey buns for all I care, instead of trying to give me lessons on gun security on a forum, save it for someone who cares and most importantly for one of those lunatics you have roaming around that will eventually shoot another bunch of innocent kids. *snip*

Edited August 2, 2019 by Saru
Removed personal attacks

[Black Red Devil]

7 hours ago, and then said:

Americans aren't killing people in OZ with our guns.  You, therefore don't get to vote on our preferences.  

See my above response to the other fool who tried to lecture me in the same manner.

[skliss]

If somehow they could get rid of illegal guns first then I would consider other proposals. As it stands, they can't and therefore taking guns from responsible gun owners makes no sense, it  just leaves them vulnerable. 

[aztek]

12 hours ago, DingoLingo said:

and this is the one thing a lot of you do not understand.

Australia's gun laws were not to stop violent crimes.. they were to stop gun related violent crimes.. after Port Arthur happend the gov basically said.. never again..

and pretty much the rest of us lot agreed.. 

and as I have said before.. Gun Control works.. but what worked for australia would not work for america.. for that to happen you would need a total cultural/attitute change.. which would not happen because currently have the 2nd ammendment (which can be changed afterall it is a ammendment.. and I think one day it will be changed)

but to start down that track.. all sides of the table need to sit down and talk.. work out a common ground to work with.. be it restrict the amount of guns someone can own.. or restrict different classes of guns.. 

lol,  no we do not, we already had enough of it. does not lead anywhere.  what the other side offers is either already done or unacceptable, 

Edited August 2, 2019 by aztek

[aztek]

2 hours ago, skliss said:

If somehow they could get rid of illegal guns first then I would consider other proposals. As it stands, they can't and therefore taking guns from responsible gun owners makes no sense, it  just leaves them vulnerable. 

apparently it makes a lot of sense if you are Australian, lol

[aztek]

14 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Thank him as much as you want but he's telling you porkies just to justify his violent habit so he can keep his toys and above all, he's showing a complete lack of concern for a problem that is regularly killing kids.  Australia hasn't a gun or crime problem on the same scale the US has.  In fact before gun control took affect in the 90's Australia had a high rate of crime in percentage compared to other western nations.  Here, figures from the Institute of Criminology from 1988.  Just look at the first graph.

Nowadays the US has 4 times higher the crime rate (not only guns) that Australia and most other western countries have.  link  The US is 99th in the world (Australia 164th similar with France, UK, Portugal, Netherlands etc.), preceded by Central/South American and African tin pot corrupt dictatorships infested by criminal lord barons who rule over uneducated and poverty stricken populations.  Then again, you're better than Russia, run by the one and only supreme world dictator.

I know you didn't compare, but he did.  The US has the problem, he's trying to put other western nations in the same pot so he can justify why it's necessary to keep his toys.  Puzzling how these toys are so necessary in defending against murderers and yet when these mass shootings occur, despite the numerous guns you have circulating around, nobody ever cuts down the shooter/s.  Only when the police come does the shooter get killed or kill himself.

 

yes i will keep my toys and you can't do a damn thing about it, get over it, it is not your country, 

[RavenHawk]

6 hours ago, and then said:

They cannot even see the disconnect in their own rhetoric.  On one hand, they bewail Trump and his authoritarianism - so-called - yet they would take away their only ability to fight to remove him or one like him in the future.  They are just mindless Lemmings.

And as you saw from the debates, they were even trashing Obama, who is no longer “Left” enough.  The next day you see them trying to walk it back.  You’ll see them eat their own because no one on that stage will be able to go up against Trump.  And you know, they know it or there wouldn’t be those that are floating the idea for Moochell to enter the fray.