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Pettytalk

Why is there existence, rather than nothing?

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zep73
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

You treat it with the same reverence that the faithful do with their belief systems. 

So, being able to discuss and defend an idea, without buying it, is a bad thing?

Who is the believer of us two then? You, who is firm in your cynicism, or me, who likes to discuss ideas?

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XenoFish
Just now, sci-nerd said:

Of course there is! Unless we stop looking for it! And that is your recipe, right?

Wrong. Every answer is another question. You're not looking deep enough to see what I'm getting at. 

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Black Red Devil
7 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

It is one of the rare things of physical nature that has no opposite. Existence cannot have an opposite, which would be termed as non-existence. Non-existence exists, not to contradict my own opinion, only in speech so as to contrast the term, existence, which is more than just a defining term, since it also has real existence, unlike non-existence which does not exist at all, apart as a definition term only.  I hesitate to repeat, but it's needed for me, as they say repetition can be a good thing, if it helps one understand better.

 

Intriguing question but unanswerable by our actual intelligent standards. The only way to answer it is by first understanding what the universe is.  All theories associated with non existence, like what was before the Big Bang, what happens when we die etc. are just mind boggling speculations. 

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XenoFish
Just now, sci-nerd said:

So, being able to discuss and defend an idea, without buying it, is a bad thing?

Who is the believer of us two then? You, who is firm in your cynicism, or me, who likes to discuss ideas?

You don't know me well enough to even have the privilege to ask that question. 

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zep73
5 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

No, I'm a realist and don't see imagination as a useful tool when evaluating reality. What do you feel embracing woo actually accomplishes?

Einstein would make a facepalm to that remark.

You know what. Let's end this. If you can't discuss without throwing the woo-word, it's not worth my time. Nothing I've said is woo. Just logic interpretation of evidence.

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psyche101
3 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Intriguing question but unanswerable by our actual intelligent standards. The only way to answer it is by first understanding what the universe is.  All theories associated with non existence, like what was before the Big Bang, what happens when we die etc. are just mind boggling speculations. 

They are not speculation so much as they are conclusions based on suggestive evidence. Physics says, there's no life after death, physics says the universe does not require a creatoe. Rather than disprove God of the afterlife, those old ideas have been well superseded by better information. We simply have no good reason to believe them as valid anymore. What's a real mystery is why that's such a mystery to so many. 

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zep73
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You don't know me well enough to even have the privilege to ask that question. 

But you know me well enough to judge me? That's called hypocrisy.

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XenoFish
13 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

No, I'm a realist and don't see imagination as a useful tool when evaluating reality.

You leave that up to us more philosophical types.:tu:

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, sci-nerd said:

But you know me well enough to judge me? That's called hypocrisy.

It's called honesty. I've read your post. How you claimed to have mastered science in a very short span of time. I've also seen your obsession with the simulated universe/reality theory. 

The truth is no one know WHY. Why is the eternal question, it the the question for every answer and all we're left with are ideas. Even those ideas are fragile as paper thin glass. There is no WHY, it only IS. People fill in the blank with various ideologies because they can't handle uncertainty. The not knowing. So they create god's, religions, philosophies, and even theories they'll hold onto. Just to feel certain. To have their truth. Life just IS, we just ARE, and we'll never know the answer to the ultimate WHY.  Can you accept a question that can never be answered? I can. 

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zep73
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I've read your post. How you claimed to have mastered science in a very short span of time. I've also seen your obsession with the simulated universe/reality theory.

So what? I learn fast. But I've never been obsessed. If you count my nearly 2,700 posts, less than 200 of them are about that subject.
You only remember it, because I started my time here on this forum with it, and because it was provocative. That was the point!

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psyche101
3 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Einstein would make a facepalm to that remark.

Really, yet he thought the god idea was ridiculous and settled for spinozas God. So he was referring to imagination of his own only I take it? Only that has merit? He imagined QM was fundamentally flawed. How did that pan out? I'd say your exaggerating his quotes myself. And using them as an appeal to authority. 

I see you totally avoided the question posed to you hence..... 

3 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

You know what. Let's end this. If you can't discuss without throwing the woo-word, it's not worth my time.

If you lack the fortitude to finish what you started, so be it. Duly noted. 

3 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Nothing I've said is woo. Just logic interpretation of evidence.

Yes it is. The why, and the simulation stuff is just another version of religion removing boundaries to make concepts that don't work work. It's like I'D proponents who protest at being called creationists, yet its exactly what they are. 

So tell me, why does a mountain exist? 

Is there any point to that question? No. There is a point in asking 'how does a mountain come to be'. 

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

That was the point!

And yet, What is the point? Why? Why that one theory? Dig deep and ask yourself why. 

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Mr Guitar

There's a  lot of 'something' that there's really no point in, including the human race - it just IS along with a lot of other stuff. But just you wait - one of these days the "Old Ones' will pull the plug on the Matrix and  all that we know will be gone. And since we'll be gone with it, we won't know the difference. Bye bye.

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Yes it is. The why, and the simulation stuff is just another version of religion removing boundaries to make concepts that don't work work. It's like I'D proponents who protest at being called creationists, yet its exactly what they are. 

I often wonder if the same motivation drive the need to add quantum to nearly every esoteric concept. Validity maybe? 

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Mr Guitar said:

one of these days the "Old Ones' will pull the plug on the Matrix and  all that we know will be gone. And since we'll be gone with it, we won't know the difference. Bye bye.

Perhaps old azathoth will finally awaken from its slumber. Ending our dream reality. lol

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psyche101
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I often wonder if the same motivation drive the need to add quantum to nearly every esoteric concept. Validity maybe? 

Personal validation for sure. 

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Personal validation for sure. 

Pretty much.

There is a certain type of madness that arises when one contemplates existence. No answer ever fully satisfies. No meaning is ever right. Deep down you eventually realize nothing makes any sense whatsoever. Inside of you this knowledge gnaws at your mind. You want there to be a reason, a meaning, a purpose to it all, but the more you think about it, no answer ever gives it to you. Why? Why anything? Even when you gain a world of knowledge that question will always be there. A thorn in the mind. Should people not pursue knowledge, they should. But they will never know the absolute answer to why. 

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zep73

@XenoFish @psyche101 we can continue this another day. My time has run out. It's 1.35 am. Got kids.

You've used every dirty trick in the book to color me bad, but I have things to say to my defense. Just not tonight.

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XenoFish
Just now, sci-nerd said:

You've used every dirty trick in the book to color me bad, but I have things to say to my defense. Just not tonight.

Welcome to your first rodeo. Trust me. If I didn't enjoy your post I could've been a lot harsher. 

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lightly

Interesting that why? is a taboo question.   I get it I guess, it just seems odd to me.  It's fine to ask what?  who?  when?  where?  

 how?   But not why?....why not?    Because the others are all objective questions and why is subjective?  

Because why involves conciousness ?   Oh oh...he's thinking again ! :o

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

They are not speculation so much as they are conclusions based on suggestive evidence. Physics says, there's no life after death, physics says the universe does not require a creatoe. Rather than disprove God of the afterlife, those old ideas have been well superseded by better information. We simply have no good reason to believe them as valid anymore. What's a real mystery is why that's such a mystery to so many. 

Same thing more or less (bold) and I agree with the rest.  There is no doubt if we ever do find out what existence is it will be through science.  Our DNA is evolving through generations and it appears science may be able to alter our genes in the future to make them more resilient in fighting diseases and who knows, maybe speeding up evolution. It's a real guess where we go from here but I do believe mankind will eventually find out the mystery of the universe and only then we'll know if there is an ethereal existence or we go zippo for good.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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psyche101
3 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

@XenoFish @psyche101 we can continue this another day. My time has run out. It's 1.35 am. Got kids.

Fair enough. Good call. 

3 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

You've used every dirty trick in the book to color me bad, but I have things to say to my defense. Just not tonight.

I don't think I've used any tricks at all. Not sure what your referring to. Just calling it as I see it 

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psyche101
2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Same thing more or less (bold) and I agree with the rest.  There is no doubt if we ever do find out what existence is it will be through science.

Without doubt. But we a further than speculation I assure you. The supporting evidence for the theories of how we came to be are pretty rock solid. Unless we find most of what we know is wrong, I don't see the situation changing from what we expect. 

2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Our DNA is evolving through generations and it appears science may be able to alter our genes in the future to make them more resilient in fighting diseases and who knows, maybe speeding up evolution.

Rich people can already have children genetically manipulated. I agree, it sounds great. If I had the money and was contemplating children, I'd take the option. 

2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

It's a real guess where we go from here but I do believe mankind will eventually find out the mystery of the universe and only then we'll know if there is an ethereal existence or we go zippo for good.

The life after death situation is better supported than most realise. Physics outright denies it. Several well known physicists including Sean Carroll, Brian Cox and Lawrence Krauss have outright stated 'there is no life after death'. And there argument is well supported and robust. We go zippo for good. Theres no good reason to consider that we continue to exist after death. 

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

The life after death situation is better supported than most realise. Physics outright denies it. Several well known physicists including Sean Carroll, Brian Cox and Lawrence Krauss have outright stated 'there is no life after death'. And there argument is well supported and robust. We go zippo for good. Theres no good reason to consider that we continue to exist after death. 

Yeah I'm inclined to believe this as well although I do leave the door ajar and while Science has made leaps and bounds in progress we still have too many unanswered questions.  Probably the biggest of them all even more than 'what is the Universe' is 'what is Reality.' 

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Pettytalk
7 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Intriguing question but unanswerable by our actual intelligent standards. The only way to answer it is by first understanding what the universe is.  All theories associated with non existence, like what was before the Big Bang, what happens when we die etc. are just mind boggling speculations. 

I was pointing to personal "opinions" we may have on the ultimate question, as an opinion does not demand knowing.

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