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Pettytalk

Why is there existence, rather than nothing?

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joc

In fact, nothing does not exist. There is no state of nothing.B)

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Bendy Demon
On 8/23/2019 at 9:36 AM, XenoFish said:

Without a beginning there is no end

May I try to expand on that a bit?

I think part of the problem we have lies in the fact that we humans have a definite beginning (birth) and an end (death) and we can, at least, pinpoint when we were born and we can give a ballpark figure of when we die. There is no cycling or transitioning and we assume everything else follows the same line.

I think the universe is a bit different as not everything began at the same time nor will it end at the same time either...

(Hoo-boy..let's see if I can explain this one..) Ok..let's think of our solar system, we have a ballpark idea of when it was created and we have a ballpark prediction of when it ended but where did all the material come from to make our solar system? I have an idea and that is..what if there was another solar system, nebula or giant star right in the very same spot where ours is now? Maybe the material form the destruction of the afore mentioned transitioned to form what we have now and when our system dies, it provides at least some of the material to eventually form something else (of course factoring in the influx of raw material from meteors and comets).

So..we can try to pinpoint a beginning of one system but it is not really the beginning so to speak, we just pick a point to build from. Kinda like looking at a circle then trying to pick a point from which we think it began.

I am sure I said it before but..there is no such thing as 'nothing'..it just is not possible. Even in space there is 'something' even if it is just a frequency of electromagnetic waves generated by microscopic particles.

Where did they come from? Perhaps remnants of a long-since dead planet. Where did that come from? Particles from a previous system, comets and fragments. And where did they come from?? See, you can play this game until the cows come home to roost; as long as we hold tenaciously onto this idea that everything just HAD to have a singular beginning we will never have a satisfactory answer either.

This is why I reject the Big Bang theory because, no matter how misguided it is,  it conveniently places a singular beginning to everything then we can't figure out why nothing is following this script we put out then we have to ask "what created/cause the big bang?" and then we are at square one. Perhaps we need to readjust our thinking..radically and take a look at it through a different lens and try not to judge and base everything on the narrow limits of human existence and thinking.

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

This is why I reject the Big Bang theory

I see it as a fireworks display. A lot of things popping into and out of existence. Black holes just recycle everything.

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Bendy Demon

And where do black holes come from? And where do the things that created black holes come from?? :P

See where I am going with this?

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XenoFish
Just now, Bendy Demon said:

And where do black holes come from? And where do the things that created black holes come from?? :P

See where I am going with this?

I see what you're trying to do:lol:

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joc

 Here we are. But who are we? Who am I? We are the procreated existence of our forefathers at al.

. The brain dies. And that life is over. But the procreation is in existence.

The life continues on. The beginning?

It really is not the beginning that is in question. A mystery to be sure! It is in the continuing the life exists.

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lightly

It is said that the universe about 13.5 Billion yrs. old.....life ,about 3.5 Billion yrs. old.   ( brains that can think ,only a few million yrs. old.)   So,  there were all these billions of years of STUFF with no awareness of IT.   I dunno what that means ,if anything, But, if true, I just find it interesting....and very ODD.  Why? did it happen?  .oh, that's right, there is no why or reason for any of it..   It just happened ...ummm cuz it happened,,uh and that's the way it happened.  Cuz it's Science!   Ya, that's it.  It's science!  Any questions? :lol:

i doubt we understand reality very well at all.   We only seem to be able to think in straight lines....I think reality is rounder than it looks ! !   

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joc
12 minutes ago, lightly said:

o,  there were all these billions of years of STUFF with no awareness of IT.   I dunno what that means ,if anything, But, if true, I just find it interesting....and very ODD.  Why? did it happen?

It's called evolution lightly!

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lightly

Billions of years of STUFF with no awareness of it...is evolution?   According to 'science' . Evolution/awareness has only occured in the last few million years ,at most.    I just find it odd .    Al those billions of years ...and then AWARENESS appears...out of the blue.

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joc
1 hour ago, lightly said:

Billions of years of STUFF with no awareness of it...is evolution?   According to 'science' . Evolution/awareness has only occured in the last few million years ,at most.    I just find it odd .    Al those billions of years ...and then AWARENESS appears...out of the blue.

Awareness did not appear out of the blue.  Nor did life for that matter.   ....for millions, and millions, and millions of years....the Earth cooled.  For millions, and millions, and millions , even, billions of years after that...it was a barren waste land with no life.  At some point...LIFE...appears.  After millions, and millions, and millions of years after life appeared....Awareness...appeared...it was NOT out of the blue.  

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Alchopwn
On 8/22/2019 at 3:07 AM, sci-nerd said:

What is that? "a conscious manifestation of the universe"? Define it, please.

As one conscious manifestation of the universe to another, I consider this self evident.  The real question is "what is consciousness ?"

Edited by Alchopwn
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Habitat
7 hours ago, joc said:

After millions, and millions, and millions of years after life appeared....Awareness...appeared...it was NOT out of the blue.  

Right, so one day, there was no awareness, and the next day there was ? Was it a Sunday, by any chance ?

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psyche101
9 hours ago, lightly said:

Billions of years of STUFF with no awareness of it...is evolution?   According to 'science' . Evolution/awareness has only occured in the last few million years ,at most.    I just find it odd .    Al those billions of years ...and then AWARENESS appears...out of the blue.

Huh????

Where you getting that from?

The first multicellular organisms had a rudimentary eye. Nothing like today's evolved version, but a sensor that could tell light from dark. Those that developed that "eye" learned to head deeper into water and avoid dangerous UV rays.

It started when life started. Today's version, billions of year later is a massive set of similar responses to our environment that have developed into what we call consciousness. As animals crawled into land, there were a whole host f dangers to be aware of. Early species had to learn to hunt, hide and gather food. Many senses are involved in that, which are part of this set. As we became bipedal, and grew bigger brains, we got bored and started experimenting. Rocks could be thrown at predators. Shelters could be built.

Billions of years went into the making of consiouness. It's not a sudden appearance. Mammals mimic that development, Jane Goodall even thinks chimps have "religious experiences". 

You have never read the paper on the attention schema theory that I have linked to several times have you?

Edited by psyche101
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Habitat

I heard one physicist say that "everything in the universe knows what everything else is doing". I think it was part of a discussion about quantum entanglement. If the universe is conscious or aware, this would probably be a reasonable representation of that, but that is not consciousness as we know it, we don't have that kind of universal awareness, only the awareness that our senses and memory provide. Maybe this is not unattainable for us, though, in the mode of apprehension spoken of by JC, where "nothing will remain hidden".

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zep73
5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

As one conscious manifestation of the universe to another, I consider this self evident.  The real question is "what is consciousness ?"

Consciousness is awareness. And that is a mystery. How can anything be aware? When does any information processing (brain, computer) develop awareness? Could it be a natural side effect of information processing? We might never know.

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lightly
8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

we got bored 

You have never read the paper on the attention schema theory that I have linked to several times have you?

I appreciate the info you provide personally and by link   ..but no, haven't read it.   I have a very limited data package ..is the only reason why.   

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psyche101
4 hours ago, lightly said:

I appreciate the info you provide personally and by link   ..but no, haven't read it.   I have a very limited data package ..is the only reason why.   

Hopefully the above bare bones version helped you grasp what it indicates about consiouness. It's a marvel, not a mystery.

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Manwon Lender

I personally beleive the term we call consciousness is not fully understood today. I beleive that in time the meaning will be expanded to include types of consciousness we can not even perceive at this time. 

Peace

 

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psyche101
45 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I personally beleive the term we call consciousness is not fully understood today. I beleive that in time the meaning will be expanded to include types of consciousness we can not even perceive at this time. 

Peace

 

Why would it be more than the programmed set of responses outlined in the attention schema theory? What suggests "more"?

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Manwon Lender
34 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Why would it be more than the programmed set of responses outlined in the attention schema theory? What suggests "more"?

Like you said the Schema theory is just that a theory. First science hasn't even determined how the entire brain functions or what all it parts do. Who knows what may proceed this theory, all theories have there time in the sun, but until any theory is proven to be fact, another theory may at some point change parts of it or replace it completely.

Peace

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psyche101
3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Like you said the Schema theory is just that a theory. First science hasn't even determined how the entire brain functions or what all it parts do. Who knows what may proceed this theory, all theories have there time in the sun, but until any theory is proven to be fact, another theory may at some point change parts of it or replace it completely.

Peace

Before I continue, you do realise there's a great deal of difference between a scientific theory and a theory don't you?

"It might be wrong", is a poor reason to dismiss it.

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Before I continue, you do realise there's a great deal of difference between a scientific theory and a theory don't you?

"It might be wrong", is a poor reason to dismiss it.

"Most people use the word 'theory' to mean an idea or hunch that someone has, but in science the word 'theory' refers to the way in which a scientist will combine facts with theoretical ideas to solve problems. 

What I said was that theories change, sometimes they are completely replaced, and sometimes things are added later to make them complete. Even Einsteins theory of General Relativity is challenged in fact it may also be changed someday. But until science can break down the full function of the human brain and all it's parts theories like this can change. I had never heard of this theory until I posted to this thread, but I did research it and there are a lot arguments for and against parts of it. So that's what my comments are based upon.

peace

Edited by Manwon Lender

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jypsijemini

Firstly, the topical question simply cannot be answered. By science or by theory or religion or anybody. We have no idea why we exist.

Science basically says, "we evolved a lot over a really long period of time and just got smarter each time and now we're conscious, aware beings who think too much" and religion basically says, "an eternal, omniscient, supernatural being rules, controls and created us and we're so lowly we couldn't even comprehend the why, we just have to have faith and focus on securing eternal life after we die".

No one actually understands consciousness. Consciousness is what we use and rely on to understand existence. ANd everything else for that matter.

We can't even understand nor agree on what consciousness (awareness) is and where it comes from, why we seem to be the only 'conscious' beings and yet it's by using our conscious minds that we're trying to understand the world.

Seriously.

Consciousness at its simplest is "sentience or awareness of internal or external existence". Despite centuries of analyses, definitions, explanations and debates by philosophers and scientists, consciousness remains puzzling and controversial, being "at once the most familiar and most mysterious aspect of our lives". Wikipedia

If we can't even understand how our minds work and why we're so 'advanced' compared to the other mammals, species and intelligent animals that exist, how can we even consider the idea that we could ever comprehend our actual existence?

We're so arrogant. We think we're so smart but really, we have no idea what's going on and we're just pretending we do.

In actuality, we're big brained dumb fecks.

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psyche101
4 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

"Most people use the word 'theory' to mean an idea or hunch that someone has, but in science the word 'theory' refers to the way in which a scientist will combine facts with theoretical ideas to solve problems. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

4 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

What I said was that theories change, sometimes they are completely replaced, and sometimes things are added later to make them complete. Even Einsteins theory of General Relativity is challenged in fact it may also be changed someday. But until science can break down the full function of the human brain and all it's parts theories like this can change. I had never heard of this theory until I posted to this thread, but I did research it and there are a lot arguments for and against parts of it. So that's what my comments are based upon.

peace

What's your argument against it? 

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psyche101
19 minutes ago, jypsijemini said:

Firstly, the topical question simply cannot be answered. By science or by theory or religion or anybody. We have no idea why we exist.

"Why" is a silly question.

It has no meaning. We don't ask why a mountain exists. That's a silly question. A sensible question is "how did a mountain come to be". "Why" is an egotistical view that implies something exists for a reason that you should be aware of. 

19 minutes ago, jypsijemini said:

Science basically says, "we evolved a lot over a really long period of time and just got smarter each time and now we're conscious, aware beings who think too much" and religion basically says, "an eternal, omniscient, supernatural being rules, controls and created us and we're so lowly we couldn't even comprehend the why, we just have to have faith and focus on securing eternal life after we die".

And science has drawn these conclusions from mountains of evidence that all supports itself. From fossil records to DNA to physical structure, science is all observation of nature. 

Religion is a story that has a traceable history through human literature only.

19 minutes ago, jypsijemini said:

No one actually understands consciousness. Consciousness is what we use and rely on to understand existence. ANd everything else for that matter.

That's an exaggeration. Are you up to speed with the latest findings in the AWARE project, or what physics has to share currently? 

Did you know that this project existed?

https://www.humanconnectome.org

This is what a map of consciousness looks like 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTYyZz8rwqLNKE_fyGlUgi

19 minutes ago, jypsijemini said:

We can't even understand nor agree on what consciousness (awareness) is and where it comes from, why we seem to be the only 'conscious' beings and yet it's by using our conscious minds that we're trying to understand the world.

Seriously.

Consciousness at its simplest is "sentience or awareness of internal or external existence". Despite centuries of analyses, definitions, explanations and debates by philosophers and scientists, consciousness remains puzzling and controversial, being "at once the most familiar and most mysterious aspect of our lives". Wikipedia

Why did you stop there? The end of the paragraph clearly states that it's a self product of the mind 

Examples of the range of descriptions, definitions or explanations are: simple wakefulness, one's sense of selfhood or soul explored by "looking within"; being a metaphorical "stream" of contents, or being a mental state, mental event or mental process of the brain; having phanera or qualia and subjectivity; being the 'something that it is like' to 'have' or 'be' it; being the "inner theatre" or the executive control system of the mind.[10]

 

 

19 minutes ago, jypsijemini said:

If we can't even understand how our minds work and why we're so 'advanced' compared to the other mammals, species and intelligent animals that exist, how can we even consider the idea that we could ever comprehend our actual existence?

Then how come your link tells us how much has be lessened since studies began in earnest only I'm the 70s? 

Also from your link:

Some argue that consciousness is a byproduct of evolution. It has been argued that consciousness emerged (i) exclusively with the first humans, (ii) exclusively with the first mammals, (iii) independently in mammals and birds, or (iv) with the first reptiles.[112] Other authors date the origins of consciousness to the first animals with nervous systems or early vertebrates in the Cambrian over 500 million years ago.[113] Donald Griffin suggests in his book Animal Minds a gradual evolution of consciousness.[65] Each of these scenarios raises the question of the possible survival value of consciousness.

19 minutes ago, jypsijemini said:

We're so arrogant. We think we're so smart but really, we have no idea what's going on and we're just pretending we do.

The people dedicating their lives to answering these questions are our only hope of ever completing such a task. Why undermine their good work with superstitions mumbo jumbo? How does that help?

19 minutes ago, jypsijemini said:

In actuality, we're big brained dumb fecks.

Everybody has a strength and everybody has a weakness. We work better combining our strengths. Some people are more driven than others. Your apathy toward their hard work is uncalled for.

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