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Lakes, rivers and structures under the Sahara


Not Invented Here

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Hi,

Long time lurker, not of the woo-woo variety.

In the spirit of Kenemet's thread on the Sajama Lines, I think the below suggests that there might be far more archaeology under the Sahara than is currently recognised (at least as far as I am aware)?

This 2017 article published in the Arabian Journal of Geosciences by Czech astronomers finds support for "paleolakes and paleoriver systems, now buried under the sands of Sahara".

The authors seem to support the theory that the humid period in what is now the Sahara ended as recently as 5,000 years before present in some areas.

Of most interest for this forum perhaps are the rectangular structures circled on p.17, figure 11e. To quote at length:

 

"We are familiar with various types of artefacts (see

Fig. 4a–d). Figure 11d–e, g exhibits very peculiar Bobjects^,

like very long walls. These are huge rectangular structures

with side of more than 100 km long, together with small size

Bgraining^. It hardly can be a real (man-made?) object.

Also, note circular structures in that area, usually with neg-

ative Δgand T

zz

, with one stronger positive value at

(φ= 32°, λ= 8.5° E, see the red circles in Fig. 11e,g).

Recall that sand surface in that area is generally flat

(confirmed by Fig. 11a, c). We did not observe such linea-

ments elsewhere; it is strange that they appear solely in this

area where better gravity data than is usual for the Saharan

territory are available with EIGEN 6C4 (see Fig. 1 in

Klokočník et al. 2013; these should be the NGA LSC data,

see Pavlis et al. 2012). Both structures remain enigmatic

features possibly caused in case of rectangular grid probably

by an interaction of the actual tectonic structures with the

computational artefacts."

They are saying that they found an impossible object right in the area where they have some of the best gravitational data. Being that it is clearly impossible, they assume it must be an artefact of the data. Oh well. If it were me, I'd still dig there, but hey ho it's no doubt as they say an accident of the computation. 

Assuming the 100km rectangles aren't really there, there is, nevertehless, perhaps enough evidence here and in similar papers to focus future archaeological efforts? Around Lake Megachad as they call it perhaps?

There is a great map at fig. 8 of a different Africa of huge lakes, and river basins that would have been green rather than yellow too! 

Also:

  • Further support for the existence of the Tamanrasset river valley draining west in to the Atlantic - similar in size to the present day Ganges river basin.
  • Reference to the Richat Structure

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316553536_A_support_for_the_existence_of_paleolakes_and_paleorivers_buried_under_Saharan_sand_by_means_of_gravitational_signal_from_EIGEN_6C4

Edited by Not Invented Here
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We're aware that there's a lot of hidden stuff under the Sahara (assuming it's not destroyed.)  The question of what kind of architecture might be preserved is interesting.  Stone structures, certainly, and mud brick.  A lot of other things could be found but might require sifting and digging thousands of tons of sand for one artifact.

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57 minutes ago, Not Invented Here said:

They are saying that they found an impossible object right in the area where they have some of the best gravitational data. Being that it is clearly impossible, they assume it must be an artefact of the dat

Thanks for the post and welcome into the light from lurking.

Sorry, maybe i read the excerpt wrong. it seemed to indicate actual tectonic structures interacting with computational artifacts.  I think that means the data cannot be resolved finely enough to make further determination.  

Digging might be a good idea if an area can be found where the overburden of sand is tens of feet and not hundreds.

You picked a good model to follow.

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Here is a thought.  Kenemet is part of this an area of migrating sand dunes?  If so, periodic observation might reveal an area in which wind has moved the overburden, and features can be seen.  Time to explore might be limited.  That same wind will erode exposed objects to some degree before it covers them up again.

I was walking through Great Sand Dunes Park in Colorado once when I cam across a flat area between dunes that was littered with stones.  I am guessing that was a temporarily exposed layer under the dunes.  Am I off base with that guess?

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8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Here is a thought.  Kenemet is part of this an area of migrating sand dunes?  If so, periodic observation might reveal an area in which wind has moved the overburden, and features can be seen.  Time to explore might be limited.  That same wind will erode exposed objects to some degree before it covers them up again.

I was walking through Great Sand Dunes Park in Colorado once when I cam across a flat area between dunes that was littered with stones.  I am guessing that was a temporarily exposed layer under the dunes.  Am I off base with that guess?

I've seen what you are talking about on the edges of the Empty Quarter. The sand dunes moving over salt flats and other rocky terrain.

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2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

We're aware that there's a lot of hidden stuff under the Sahara (assuming it's not destroyed.)  The question of what kind of architecture might be preserved is interesting.  Stone structures, certainly, and mud brick.  A lot of other things could be found but might require sifting and digging thousands of tons of sand for one artifact.

Ah, so it's simply cost / benefit. I guess if there is anything left after 5k years, it'll wait another 50.

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14 minutes ago, Not Invented Here said:

Ah, so it's simply cost / benefit. I guess if there is anything left after 5k years, it'll wait another 50.

The area is politically unstable and the type of excavation that would be required would take a lot of money. Keeping people supplied is a major problem in a desert where its a long way by land and the ground is not always good to land on with an aircraft. I've done and been to digs along the coast and inland in Arabia. Tough work. digging through sand is tough as you must brace the sides - or move a LOT of sand. Out in the desert you also have the problem of no easily available locals to hire to assist.

 

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13 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

The area is politically unstable and the type of excavation that would be required would take a lot of money. Keeping people supplied is a major problem in a desert where its a long way by land and the ground is not always good to land on with an aircraft. I've done and been to digs along the coast and inland in Arabia. Tough work. digging through sand is tough as you must brace the sides - or move a LOT of sand. Out in the desert you also have the problem of no easily available locals to hire to assist.

 

Definitely not happening any time soon then.

i was looking for evidence that the old maps that show an east-west tributary to the Nile might have had some foundation in the dim and distant. it would, I supposed, be much harder for our ancestors to confuse east-west / north-south than we do today since the direction that the sun rises and sets in is pretty inescapable in the desert in comparison to living in a city where high rise buildings can make it quite obscure. Or maybe that’s just me not paying attention!

in any case, this study seems to further rule out an east west course.

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32 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

and inland in Arabia. Tough work. digging through sand is tough as you must brace the sides - or move a LOT of sand. Out in the desert you also have the problem of no easily available locals to hire to assist.

 

I remember reading about just how difficult it is to get to parts of Arabia even with modern tech. Reminds me of this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabar_craters 

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4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

We're aware that there's a lot of hidden stuff under the Sahara (assuming it's not destroyed.)  The question of what kind of architecture might be preserved is interesting.  Stone structures, certainly, and mud brick.  A lot of other things could be found but might require sifting and digging thousands of tons of sand for one artifact.

I was under the impression that’s what archaeology grad students were for. 

—Jaylemurph 

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2 hours ago, Not Invented Here said:

Ah, so it's simply cost / benefit. I guess if there is anything left after 5k years, it'll wait another 50.

I think that with remote sensing we can find likely sites... and then comes the issue of how to get to them and how to get permission and how to fund them.  I think that's one of our best approaches for now.  We know that there were caravan paths through some of the area, but if we can peer farther back in the past, we could see what it was like as a grassland.  Even with nomadic people, there will be some traces somewhere... but finding something like a campsite under all that sand will be difficult.

If they can find some of the abandoned/dried up oasis sites, that's where we might find traces of people who lived at the very beginning of the desertification.

One of my paleontologist friends did work on the whales there in Egypt and said it was a really challenging site (he was a grad student at the time.)

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1 hour ago, Not Invented Here said:

I remember reading about just how difficult it is to get to parts of Arabia even with modern tech. Reminds me of this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabar_craters 

Yes tough going I recently finished reading and researching all the classic expeditions into the Empty quarter to gain info for a book. My own experience with the EQ was to go south of the Liwa Oasis about two hundred kilometers in Land Rovers and Toyota trucks. I also skirted the area from the north of Salalah in Oman.

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20 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

I was under the impression that’s what archaeology grad students were for. 

—Jaylemurph 

...having been one of those TFF's (trowel fodder folks) I curse your next night time bathroom excursion.

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1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

...having been one of those TFF's (trowel fodder folks) I curse your next night time bathroom excursion.

As my father told me many years ago, the world needs ditch diggers too.  Highly educated ones!

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2 hours ago, Doc Socks Junior said:

As my father told me many years ago, the world needs ditch diggers too.  Highly educated ones!

Besides the odd drainage ditch, countless test pits (344 during one summer season in Cyprus) I also dug some DFP's:

Stabilizedfront042-2.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

 I also dug some DFP's:

Without grenade sumps???? :huh:

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3 minutes ago, Piney said:

Without grenade sumps???? :huh:

Of course and usually a urinal and dump dump too

a0337.gif

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