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Manwon Lender

What's causing the mass shootings in the USA

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aztek

it does not appear to me that way at all, no one is confusing those two.  would you show us what articles made you believe that they do?

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Kismit
5 minutes ago, aztek said:

it does not appear to me that way at all, no one is confusing those two.  would you show us what articles made you believe that they do?

I was reading some YouTube comments from people who believe that the Government changed the social media accounts of the shooter from Socialist to Republican . I believe that this is actually the two stories getting confused. 

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Kismit

It was actually quite a large thread with several people responding with things like wwg1wga. So I dare say some people are confusing the two

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aztek
Just now, Kismit said:

I was reading some YouTube comments from people who believe that the Government changed the social media accounts of the shooter from Socialist to Republican . I believe that this is actually the two stories getting confused. 

so some people are confused, not msm prints confusing articles, got it. 

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Kismit
1 minute ago, aztek said:

so some people are confused, not msm prints confusing articles, got it. 

As I have said several times before all media should be analysed and views with skepticism and a critical eye. But I believe it is the internet trolls who are really our biggest issue.

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aztek

so MSM itself did not confuse any articles then, trolls did in you tube comments, oh wow, that is serious, lol

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Kismit
9 minutes ago, aztek said:

so MSM itself did not confuse any articles then, trolls did in you tube comments, oh wow, that is serious, lol

And it looks like you are agreeing with my original point Aztec. That the two stories have been confused. Although I said that it was on purpose by both political sides.

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aztek
7 minutes ago, Kismit said:

And it looks like you are agreeing with my original point Aztec. That the two stories have been confused. Although I said that it was on purpose by both political sides.

of course not,   you making it look like it is political parties mix things up for their purpose while we established that it is trolls who are confused., which is really nothing. who cares what trolls say

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aztek

now back on topic

After back to back shootings, Trump called for red flag laws. 

The laws vary in different states. In Indiana, only law enforcement can request an order to remove weapons. But in Oregon, any person living with the person they're concerned about can petition the state. 

According to The Trace, lawmakers on both sides of the debate have embraced red flag policies. Red flag laws have been enacted in 17 states, 12 of which acted after the Parkland high school shooting in Feb. 2018 where 17 people died. The laws have been proposed in four states.

As with the 12 states enacting laws after Parkland, red flag laws tend to appear in states after a deadly shooting shocks the community. Connecticut passed the first red flag law in 1999 after a shooting at Connecticut Lottery headquarters in Newington. California passed its own version after a 22-year-old killed seven people, including himself.

Not everyone is a fan of the laws. The National Rifle Association has historically been against them, fighting the legislation in various states. They've said the laws violate an individual's right to due process. After Parkland, though, they indicated they might support versions that, in their view, protect due process. 

much more here;https://www.yahoo.com/news/back-back-shootings-trump-called-173358512.html

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Kismit
3 minutes ago, aztek said:

of course not,   you making it look like it is political parties mix things up for their purpose while we established that it is trolls who are confused., which is really nothing. who cares what trolls say

So true

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Gunn
2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

What do you consider a mental  defect?  Is it a chemical or physical abnormality in the brain?  Some people do have that.

There is another cause just as prevalent though, it is fervent internal belief and surety that you are absolutely right in that belief.  You see examples of that all the time in the world. 

Do groups look for individuals with mental defects or  do they groom and train and constantly bombard with a single belief system to produce suicide bombers?

Hate and Heaven and doing God's will can be enormous forces for causing violence especially when they become an obsession. 

The trigger can be race or religion or political belief.  Even outrage at the injustice one thinks he suffers due to the existence of another group.  Incels come to mind who decide to take out the "Barbies" and the "Kens" because they feel left out.

The idea is not new.  Eric Hoffer wrote a book about it in 1951. The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements   partially about the nature of fanaticism.   Still applies today, even though he never heard of ISIS or Incels.

 

My thoughts were more along the line of a chemical imbalance. I'm not so sure about physical abnormalities because I've only heard of rare cases (like brain tumors) involving murder because of that. As for the rest you mentioned, I think I understand what you're talking about.

I couldn't say for sure one way or the other to your second question. I'm not sure how or what they do to achieve that with suicide bombers.

But maybe it's just a case of brainwashing young inexperienced minds, subjecting them to violence, hate and indoctrination in extremism, over and over again, that could maybe eventually lead to a chemical imbalance in the brain? You know, for a long time I thought about something else related to this in another way - When men/women become soldiers and they go off to war, they see, do and experience lot of horrific things, not because they really want to, but have to under orders, threat and defense. And then a lot of them come back from these wars with a lot of mental health problems like PTSD. And some can no longer handle it and they either commit suicide or kill someone else. And I often wonder about the mental health issues these soldiers suffer from is not also a result of chemical imbalance in the brain, because of what they went through. So there seems to be a correlation about the end results between these two.

But then again, maybe it's all the hate and anger that builds and builds in the mind, and it just eats away at the brain like a form of cancer, destroying it and causing a chemical imbalance in the brain as well. Who really knows?

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aztek
13 minutes ago, Gunn said:

My thoughts were more along the line of a chemical imbalance. I'm not so sure about physical abnormalities because I've only heard of rare cases (like brain tumors) involving murder because of that. As for the rest you mentioned, I think I understand what you're talking about.

I couldn't say for sure one way or the other to your second question. I'm not sure how or what they do to achieve that with suicide bombers.

But maybe it's just a case of brainwashing young inexperienced minds, subjecting them to violence, hate and indoctrination in extremism, over and over again, that could maybe eventually lead to a chemical imbalance in the brain? You know, for a long time I thought about something else related to this in another way - When men/women become soldiers and they go off to war, they see, do and experience lot of horrific things, not because they really want to, but have to under orders, threat and defense. And then a lot of them come back from these wars with a lot of mental health problems like PTSD. And some can no longer handle it and they either commit suicide or kill someone else. And I often wonder about the mental health issues these soldiers suffer from is not also a result of chemical imbalance in the brain, because of what they went through. So there seems to be a correlation about the end results between these two.

But then again, maybe it's all the hate and anger that builds and builds in the mind, and it just eats away at the brain like a form of cancer, destroying it and causing a chemical imbalance in the brain as well. Who really knows?

that is where 99% of trump haters got their hate, none of them personally knows trump, nor had anything bad happen to them by trump's hand, nor they feel any negative side of his policies, they hate him cuz tv said so,  now if media can do it to millions it absolutely can screw up few bad apples who already had mental issues (kill list, rape list) into murderers,

and contrary what some here say, chemical imbalance is exactly what makes you think differently,   people very often  think different when on drugs,  or  when drunk, drugs work by creating chemical reactions, that brain normally would not create.

 

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Tatetopa
22 minutes ago, Gunn said:

My thoughts were more along the line of a chemical imbalance. I'm not so sure about physical abnormalities because I've only heard of rare cases (like brain tumors) involving murder because of that. As for the rest you mentioned, I think I understand what you're talking about.

I couldn't say for sure one way or the other to your second question. I'm not sure how or what they do to achieve that with suicide bombers.

But maybe it's just a case of brainwashing young inexperienced minds, subjecting them to violence, hate and indoctrination in extremism, over and over again, that could maybe eventually lead to a chemical imbalance in the brain? You know, for a long time I thought about something else related to this in another way - When men/women become soldiers and they go off to war, they see, do and experience lot of horrific things, not because they really want to, but have to under orders, threat and defense. And then a lot of them come back from these wars with a lot of mental health problems like PTSD. And some can no longer handle it and they either commit suicide or kill someone else. And I often wonder about the mental health issues these soldiers suffer from is not also a result of chemical imbalance in the brain, because of what they went through. So there seems to be a correlation about the end results between these two.

But then again, maybe it's all the hate and anger that builds and builds in the mind, and it just eats away at the brain like a form of cancer, destroying it and causing a chemical imbalance in the brain as well. Who really knows?

Very good post.  I think there might be more than 1 type of shooter, and more than 1 cause.  Like most of life, its complicated.

Referring to your concerns about vets, the military is aware of that and does make some effort to help.  My sister is stationed overseas in the medical area of a large base.  Her specialty is helping seals and rangers and other special forces reintegrate with their families.  As you say, there are a lot of issues and vets need support and people that know they are not crazy.  They need to know there is a way to deal with things and return to some normalcy.  Nightmares and flailing and punching ones wife during sleep or freaking out on  the kids are things that happen.  Vets need to know they can get better and not fear being a danger to the ones they love.

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skliss

I posted this in another thread and am copying it here...don't want to type it all again but it fits this thread.:

Years ago I watched a documentary by a woman reporter who somehow, someway...even she was shocked...was allowed to embed for a time with both Hamas and Hezbollah. She got to interview many of the young guys who joined and were considering being suicide bombers, etc. What she found in these young guys who were willing to end their own lives for a cause was they felt hopeless and disenfranchised.  In their countries the govt s were fearful of young men one today taking their power away so everything was set against these young guys.  They had no hope of jobs or starting a business or ever having enough money to find a girl and have a family. But what they were told was the U.S. was to blame or western culture,  yada yada...never that their own govt was keepng them down. 

I'm wondering if these shooters are feeling the same way, no one is listening, they've never learned how to lose and move on... they feel they dont have a future or are pushed into feeling they are labelled and don't know how to fix it.

 

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aztek

if they do feel the same, they are not right in a head, there are more opportunities in usa than anywhere in the world,  for a job , business, get married., have a family....regardless of gvmnt,    millions of immigrants coming for that and  finding exactly that is a sold proof. 

 

 

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Gwynbleidd

Whether you like him or hate him, he's got some VERY VALID POINTS on why mass shootings occur.   Hence I thought I'd post it here so others can view it to discuss.   

 

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Gwynbleidd
27 minutes ago, aztek said:

if they do feel the same, they are not right in a head, there are more opportunities in usa than anywhere in the world,  for a job , business, get married., have a family....regardless of gvmnt,    millions of immigrants coming for that and  finding exactly that is a sold proof. 

Do you or have you ever lived outside of the US for a significant period of time? The reason I ask you this is, I have lived in both places and the USA doesn't have as anywhere near as many opportunities as people think it has, nor is it as free as people think they are.  BUT, a person from a third world country thinks it does.  But definitely not to a person from a first world country.  The reason millions of immigrants are flowing into the US is because it's EASY to get into.  It is seen as the promised land to those who are from third world countries and they know they can try to sneak in, hopefully not get caught, and the Govt is slack on it.  Unlike other countries immigration laws, the US is very lax in comparison. Sorry off topic a bit, just wanted to give you an outsider's perspective who has lived in both places :) 

Edited by pixiii
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susieice
3 hours ago, aztek said:

of course not,   you making it look like it is political parties mix things up for their purpose while we established that it is trolls who are confused., which is really nothing. who cares what trolls say

Trolls can cause a lot of issues. That's why they are trolls.

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aztek
1 minute ago, pixiii said:

Do you or have you ever lived outside of the US for a significant period of time?

i lived in about 25 30 countries for no more than few weeks.   some i visited several times.    including countries where my father and wife came from. in both of them i speak their first language

if you think i did not have time to see what an average locar resident has opportunity wise, you are very wrong.  pretty much anyone could, it is not that hard really, 

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Gwynbleidd
13 minutes ago, susieice said:

Trolls can cause a lot of issues. That's why they are trolls.

Not to mention they offer no substance to a discussion.  They're simply there for a reaction.  

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susieice
4 minutes ago, pixiii said:

Not to mention they offer no substance to a discussion.  They're simply there for a reaction.  

Their sole purpose is to cause disruption and discord. They make themselves easy to spot but some people will hang on their every word. I'm seeing more people are aware of what a troll really is now.

Edited by susieice
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Gwynbleidd
23 minutes ago, aztek said:

i lived in about 25 30 countries for no more than few weeks.   some i visited several times.    including countries where my father and wife came from. in both of them i speak their first language

if you think i did not have time to see what an average locar resident has opportunity wise, you are very wrong.  pretty much anyone could, it is not that hard really, 

Fair enough if you say so.  I completely disagree, as living in 25-30 countries for no more than a few weeks is a holiday to me.  I could say I've lived in 37 countries if that's the case.  See the difference?  And no, I will be quite up front and honest about saying I didn't learn of each and every one of those countries politics, economical issues, infrastructure, employment status of the population, local, state and national laws....definitely not in a few weeks, sorry I don't believe you aztek. Anyway, I refuse to drag this off topic any further and I think we can respectfully agree to disagree. :) 

However....I do agree with you completely on this :D 

Quote

that is where 99% of trump haters got their hate, none of them personally knows trump, nor had anything bad happen to them by trump's hand, nor they feel any negative side of his policies, they hate him cuz tv said so,  now if media can do it to millions it absolutely can screw up few bad apples who already had mental issues (kill list, rape list) into murderers,

And I'm not even a Trump fan! :lol:  But this is so very true.  The media has so much to answer for.

Edited by pixiii
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tortugabob

The elephant in the room is Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors (SSRI)  anti-depression drugs. These drugs are know to cause violent and/or suicidal behavior in younger patients. They are being prescribed in record numbers. The facts are hard to dig out because of patient-doctor privilege but it is known that the Colorado school shooting perps were on these drugs and the guy who killed his mother and those young children at a grammar school in New England was on some kind of psychotropic drug(s)  (not to mention that he was addicted to violent shooter type video games).  Why isn't this common knowledge? Big Pharma doesn't want you to know because they are making 100s of millions of dollars in profits from the sales of these drugs.  The main stream media doesn't want you to know because they are making millions off of drug advertisements. The politicians don't want you to know because they are raking in 100s of thousands of dollars in campaign "contributions". I might add that European SSRI drug prescriptions are issued at a fraction of the numbers issued in the USA.

Edited by tortugabob
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Gwynbleidd
4 hours ago, Kismit said:

It was actually quite a large thread with several people responding with things like wwg1wga. So I dare say some people are confusing the two

Sounds like the Q Movement @Kismit and yes the comments on YT are usually toxic towards each other.  Little troll haven.  However, the labeling thing has come up yet again to make this whole thing a political issue - by saying the El Paso shooter is Republican and the Ohio Shooter is Socialist/Democrat, so I can only imagine the toxicity in their comments against each other.  All I can say is, it's a good thing our pollies in NZ and Oz are more sedate than the US pollies are. :)   

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Kismit
2 minutes ago, pixiii said:

Sounds like the Q Movement @Kismit and yes the comments on YT are usually toxic towards each other.  Little troll haven.  However, the labeling thing has come up yet again to make this whole thing a political issue - by saying the El Paso shooter is Republican and the Ohio Shooter is Socialist/Democrat, so I can only imagine the toxicity in their comments against each other.  All I can say is, it's a good thing our pollies in NZ and Oz are more sedate than the US pollies are. :)   

That would be a fair call on the surface. However I think that a lot of the wwg1wga comments are young people thinking they are funny. Also known as trolls, sadly us older generations are not equipped to recognise always recognise these stupid posts. The older generation falls for the nonsense frequently, like the recent area 51 meme on line. Mostly just kids joking and having a laugh, but the vulnerable and trusting people who were brought up with humour being a real life medium miss the subtleties and sarcasm and get influenced by fake messaging on line.

I see it on here regularly someone expresses an opinion and a few threads later someone is using it as fact or only a post or two later people are discussing it as truth.

This is where red flag and crisis actor crap comes from, and it's the trolls involved who want to be a part of political discussion but are not intelligent enough to form coherent and consistent arguments which cause more problems than issuing solutions.

 

Just saying.

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