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Still Waters

Boy, 6, thrown from 10th floor of London Tate

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Still Waters

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Jonty Bravery, 18, admits attempted murder after throwing boy from tenth floor of Tate Modern in London

This breaking news story is being updated and more details will be published shortly. Please refresh the page for the fullest version.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50692100

 

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RabidMongoose
4 minutes ago, Still Waters said:

Latest:

 

Bearing in mind this is the UK watch him now get 5-10 years instead of 40 to 60.

We need tougher prison sentences like the US.

Edited by RabidMongoose

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Still Waters
42 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Bearing in mind this is the UK watch him now get 5-10 years instead of 40 to 60.

We need tougher prison sentences like the US.

According to the Guardian -

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RabidMongoose
41 minutes ago, Still Waters said:

According to the Guardian -

 

Thanks, I will keep watching to see what his sentence will be.

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stevewinn
1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

Thanks, I will keep watching to see what his sentence will be.

whatever it is he'll only serve half like the norm these days. successive UK govts soft on crime soft on the causes of crime. we've gone soft as a country, we've tried the rehabilitation route in Prisons its now time to make them into hell holes. so even the devil himself would never want to go back.

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aztek
4 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Bearing in mind this is the UK watch him now get 5-10 years instead of 40 to 60.

We need tougher prison sentences like the US.

i would not hold my breath, he most likely wouldn't get more than 10 in usa,  our justice system is a revolving door, it needs criminals, so they do not get harsh sentences in vast majority of cases, so they come back again,  i know it sounds crazy, but based on what is happening in reality, i can't think of any other explanation

Edited by aztek
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aztek

didn't we have same thing happen at a mall? our guy got 19 years, and i have no doubt if he was not 24, but  minor, he'd get half

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Setton
16 hours ago, stevewinn said:

whatever it is he'll only serve half like the norm these days. successive UK govts soft on crime soft on the causes of crime. we've gone soft as a country, we've tried the rehabilitation route in Prisons its now time to make them into hell holes. so even the devil himself would never want to go back.

We tried that too. Right up until recent years. 

Didn't work. 

Actual rehabilitation programmes, run by a government committed to the concept, do work. 

Edited by Setton

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Setton
19 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Bearing in mind this is the UK watch him now get 5-10 years instead of 40 to 60.

We need tougher prison sentences like the US.

Given that he's almost certainly ill, I doubt he'll get much of a prison sentence, if any. Probably will be sectioned until (if ever) he's no longer a danger. 

What good exactly do you think locking someone up for 60 years because they're ill will do? 

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RabidMongoose
1 hour ago, Setton said:

Given that he's almost certainly ill, I doubt he'll get much of a prison sentence, if any. Probably will be sectioned until (if ever) he's no longer a danger. 

What good exactly do you think locking someone up for 60 years because they're ill will do? 

You need to stop and think about how mental illness isn't normally severe enough to mean the person is insane. The offender has autism, obsessive compulsive disorder, and is being evaluated for having a personality disorder. None of those cause diminished responsibility and arent grounds for an insanity plea. Furthermore, he has already admitted that he did it because he wanted to be in the news.

After reading all of the above this morning in the papers I think its unlikely he will be getting 5 to 10 years. He is an incredibly dangerous individual and needs locking up for the rest of his natural life. Be that in a prison, or Broadmoor and then a prison. We lock people up like this for the rest of their life not just as a punishment but to protect the public.

While the obsessive compulsive disorder can be treated the autism cannot, and neither can a personality disorder. Its wrong for me to say what the diagnosis will be ahead of time but we all know a person has severe problems with the way the cogs go around inside their heads to push a child off a building. It suspect its going to by one of the psychopathy variants of anti-social personality disorder.

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stevewinn
1 hour ago, Setton said:

We tried that too. Right up until recent years. 

Didn't work. 

Actual rehabilitation programmes, run by a government committed to the concept, do work. 

tell that to the victims. oh you cant most of them are murdered, tell their loved ones instead. what is it 69% reoffend rate.

a mate of mine is a prison officer in a prison hospital. the nut cases that are in there you never hear about, one inmate killed his own mother skinned her, and was walking around the streets with his mothers hands on wearing her skin like a pair of gloves, he done the same with her face wearing it as a mask. this fella in jail needs destroying, he's constantly trying to kill the prison guards. and if you think this is bad, on a scale of 1 to 10 this fella is a 3 on the screw loose scale so you can imagine just how terrible the other inmates are and the crimes they've committed. destroy the lot of them.

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RabidMongoose
1 hour ago, Setton said:

We tried that too. Right up until recent years. 

Didn't work. 

Actual rehabilitation programmes, run by a government committed to the concept, do work. 

In the UK the left seem to argue for rehabilitation while the right argue for a tougher stance on crime and punishment.

I see the lefts position (articulated with your assumptions about rehabilitation above) as being ideological not grounded in reality. We know this because over 50% of offenders reoffend showing rehabilitation doesnt work. And we know a lot of those who dont are people who manage to keep it together simply because they dont want to lose their freedom again.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/oct/29/prisoner-rehabilitation-does-not-work-says-former-prisons-boss

We also know that in the UK 95% of inmates suffer from at least one personality disorder and that personality disorders cannot be cured. People with them can be taught to manage their condition, but they will only apply that if they actually want too.

It is my position that anybody committing a serious offence requiring 10+ years in prison, or anybody who is on their 3rd stay in prison, should automatically be given the death penalty.

Edited by RabidMongoose

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Habitat
1 hour ago, Setton said:

Actual rehabilitation programmes, run by a government committed to the concept, do work. 

I'd love to believe it, but with numerous offenders having long lists of convictions at relatively young ages, it obviously isn't happening.

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Setton
1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

In the UK the left seem to argue for rehabilitation while the right argue for a tougher stance on crime and punishment.

I see the lefts position (articulated with your assumptions about rehabilitation above) as being ideological not grounded in reality. We know this because over 50% of offenders reoffend showing rehabilitation doesnt work. 

Because we don't actually have an effective rehabilitation programme or a government committed to the idea. 

Instead we at best half-**** it and have the worse of both worlds. 

As for this being based on assumptions, several Scandinavian countries commit to rehabilitation and have an extremely low rate of recidivism. 

By contrast, look at some middle eastern countries. Very harsh penalties but no rehabilitation so people still reoffend. 

It comes down to the purpose of our justice system: is it to keep people safe or for simple revenge? 

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Setton
1 hour ago, Habitat said:

I'd love to believe it, but with numerous offenders having long lists of convictions at relatively young ages, it obviously isn't happening.

As I say above, that because we don't commit to rehabilitation. Look at Scandinavian countries, they prove it can work. 

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RabidMongoose
3 hours ago, Setton said:

Because we don't actually have an effective rehabilitation programme or a government committed to the idea. 

Instead we at best half-**** it and have the worse of both worlds. 

As for this being based on assumptions, several Scandinavian countries commit to rehabilitation and have an extremely low rate of recidivism. 

By contrast, look at some middle eastern countries. Very harsh penalties but no rehabilitation so people still reoffend. 

It comes down to the purpose of our justice system: is it to keep people safe or for simple revenge? 

Show us your evidence.

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Setton
1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

Show us your evidence.

Recidivism rate in Norway is 20%. In the UK it's 40%, US is 46%.

 

ETA: The UK and US rates are within 12 months. The Norway rate is 'ever'. 

Equivalent figures would be:

Norway - 20%

UK - 75%

US - 76%

Edited by Setton
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spartan max2

Rehabilitation definitely is the better way to go. 

Our government only pays lip service to the concept.

Though with Norway I am curious if the 20 percent come from a certain type of crime or not? Like murders vs robbery, etc. 

Because if the recidivism was being done by a dissportinate type of crime it could suggest that certain crimes can't be rehabilitated. 

Pure speculation on my part though.

 

 

Edited by spartan max2

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RabidMongoose
3 hours ago, Setton said:

Recidivism rate in Norway is 20%. In the UK it's 40%, US is 46%.

 

ETA: The UK and US rates are within 12 months. The Norway rate is 'ever'. 

Equivalent figures would be:

Norway - 20%

UK - 75%

US - 76%

Stop the lies.

The reoffending rate in the UK is over 50%.

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Setton
12 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Stop the lies.

The reoffending rate in the UK is over 50%.

75 to be exact... Like my post says... 

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RabidMongoose
Just now, Setton said:

75 to be exact... Like my post says... 

Oh so you concede we are correct.

Your post wasn't that clear.

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Setton
3 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Oh so you concede we are correct.

Your post wasn't that clear.

No, I concede you are illiterate. 

Norway actually has a proper rehabilitation programme. 

Their recidivism rate is 20%.

We do not. Our rate is 75%.

Ergo, rehabilitation programmes reduce reoffending. 

This is not complicated. 

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RabidMongoose
6 minutes ago, Setton said:

No, I concede you are illiterate. 

Norway actually has a proper rehabilitation programme. 

Their recidivism rate is 20%.

We do not. Our rate is 75%.

Ergo, rehabilitation programmes reduce reoffending. 

This is not complicated. 

I decided to check out your claim and in all fairness I did find the reoffending rate in Norway to be 20%. I found the rates were also about 50% in the UK and 60% in the USA. But I didnt stop there as that seemed very odd to me and I discovered all is not what it seems.

Norway doesnt like imprisoning its criminal offenders https://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12?r=US&IR=T. Thats right, the USA gives out prison sentences to 10x more people per 100,000 members of the population than what Norway does.

What Norway does is divert its criminal offenders with mental health problems off into healthcare unless they commit serious criminal offences. With this in mind Norway only had 3373 criminal offenders serving time as of 05/09/2018. The rate of reoffending in Norway is not dramatically lower than in every other country on the planet. Its not criminalising most of its criminals so they arent included in the statistics.

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Habitat

Crime rates that are high enough, will overwhelm any rehabilitation program, these are complex issues, but whichever way you look at it, releasing people back on the streets who are 90% to re-offend, is systemic failure.

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Setton
27 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I decided to check out your claim and in all fairness I did find the reoffending rate in Norway to be 20%. I found the rates were also about 50% in the UK and 60% in the USA. But I didnt stop there as that seemed very odd to me and I discovered all is not what it seems.

Norway doesnt like imprisoning its criminal offenders https://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12?r=US&IR=T. Thats right, the USA gives out prison sentences to 10x more people per 100,000 members of the population than what Norway does.

 

Norway also has ~10x less crime in the first place... Not custodial sentences - crime. 

Quote

What Norway does is divert its criminal offenders with mental health problems off into healthcare unless they commit serious criminal offences. With this in mind Norway only had 3373 criminal offenders serving time as of 05/09/2018. The rate of reoffending in Norway is not dramatically lower than in every other country on the planet. Its not criminalising most of its criminals so they arent included in the statistics.

20% is not dramatically lower than 75%? Or 50% using your (unsourced) figure?

Recidivism rate has nothing to do with the number of convictions, jail sentences or anything else. It's simply the rate at which those who have been convincted of a crime go on to commit further crimes. 

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