Rocket launcher handed in during gun surrender

[+Desertrat56]

7 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Setton can correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like if someone attacks you with a knife you can't defend yourself with one.

Because it is illegal to have a knife for self defense. Because you "shouldn't have possessed it". 

That sounds like it inherently disadvantages innocent people. 

You're allowed to defend yourself without weapons against people who might have weapons.

That feels very wrong 

I agree with that and that is why I am against changing the gun laws in the U.S.  Most people in certain states have guns and are trained to use them.  (Texas for one)  I was trained as a child by my dad. 

And sometimes you don't need to fire the gun, you just need to let someone know you have it.  A woman I used to work with told me her dad gave her a gun for high school graduation.  She was very disappointed but he insisted she learn how to use it.  He said she may need it driving alone on the highway back and forth from college to home.  Sure enough (and this was in the late 70's) she was driving from Dallas to Houston on the highway going home for Christmas and 3 semi drivers boxed her in.  She had a CB and was listening to the foul things they said they were going to do to her.  She had kept the gun in the glove compartment for  a long time without even thinking about it but about the time she started panicking she remembered the gun, put on the dash board where the truck driver next to her could see it.  Those truckers were gone in 30 seconds.  the one behind her pulled into the left lane and they all headed away as fast as they could.    It is stupid but there are people like that who think it is fun to scare the bejeezus out of a teenage girl.  She will never know if they were really going to do the things they said but they could have because there was very little traffic on the highway. 

 

[+OverSword]

51 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Not even a kitchen knife?  Do chefs have to register their tools too?

There is a department store that stopped selling kitchen knives and I'm not sure how nuts the government went beyond this little doozy in April of 2018

 

Quote

 

London Mayor Sadiq Khan announced a crackdown on knives Sunday in response to the rising levels of violence in London, which recently surpassed New York City's homicide rate for the first time. 

"No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife," Khan tweeted. "Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law." 

 

Link

Maybe Setton can go show his knife to a cop in London and verify this isn't still the case there.

Edited August 7, 2019 by OverSword

[aztek]

1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

That's something completely different, we're talking about you can kill someone who's punched you on the nose in an argument.

no it is not any different, can you give anyone a guarantee that next punch won't kill? when we have plenty of evidence it does happen often enough, hence the amount of articles, about it. 

   i would not risk it, if someone swings at me i will consider it a threat to life, and act accordingly.   give me one good reason why i should not.  

[Big Jim]

42 minutes ago, OverSword said:

"No excuses: there is never a reason to carry a knife," Khan tweeted. "Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law." 

I'm glad I don't live there.  I've had a knife in my pocket since I was 3.  I don't need a reason to carry a knife any more than a person needs a reason to wear jewelry.  In fact I have referred to it as pocket jewelry.  I carry one for a time then switch it for another.  It's my all around go to tool.  I'd feel naked without one in my pocket.  I have never used it as a weapon, but the pen in my shirt pocket could be used as one if I needed to.  But frankly, I'm probably no better off in regards to the law here in Ohio.  I've tried to find out what the law is, especially since some of my knives may be illegal no matter where they are, but it seems impossible.  Nobody knows.  The state doesn't know.  What information I have found is so vague as to be useless and the laws can change by crossing the street or passing through a different town. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Big Jim
to improve composition.

[aztek]

1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

Well there's what's known as a 'reasonable risk' more people die from tripping on a step, but your statement couldn't be more ironic, because i hear it every week on the news from a family grieving over the loss of their innocent child who's been shot. 

that is because they tell you that on the news every week,  week after week, like they are  challenging sickos to do it again,  and they do.

i do not see how one punch kill is relevant to those grieving families,  nor in any way lessens their tragedy.  what is one has to do with the other?

are lloss families of one punch victims, any less important ?   i'm not sure i follow you here

in usa we'd like that reasonable rick be on the puncher side, not on a victims, thus we allow such force,  i was just showing my surprise at the fact that it is normal to punch someone in a face in australia,  or  brake into someone's house to rob it.  as i was told before by your countryman, no wonder you do not want guns,  good move surrendering them, 

Edited August 8, 2019 by aztek

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

That's something completely different, we're talking about you can kill someone who's punched you on the nose in an argument.

I'm not aware of any place in America where a person could kill for something like that.  I guess if the circumstances were hazy it might be possible but generally, a person has to have a reasonable cause to fear for their life.  

[Big Jim]

I've been following you guys discussing the balance of power between someone punching and someone with a gun.  Just to muddy the waters a little bit, would it be ok to respond with martial arts to someone throwing haymakers?  Or do you have to pretend you don't know advanced techniques just because your assailant doesn't?  It seems a little like the same thing as fist vs. a gun or knife.

[Golden Duck]

25 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

I've been following you guys discussing the balance of power between someone punching and someone with a gun.  Just to muddy the waters a little bit, would it be ok to respond with martial arts to someone throwing haymakers?  Or do you have to pretend you don't know advanced techniques just because your assailant doesn't?  It seems a little like the same thing as fist vs. a gun or knife.

It's not about balance of power. It's about the fear for your own safety.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Golden Duck

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, Big Jim said:

I'm glad I don't live there.  I've had a knife in my pocket since I was 3.  I don't need a reason to carry a knife any more than a person needs a reason to wear jewelry.  In fact I have referred to it as pocket jewelry.  I carry one for a time then switch it for another.  It's my all around go to tool.  I'd feel naked without one in my pocket.  I have never used it as a weapon, but the pen in my shirt pocket could be used as one if I needed to.  But frankly, I'm probably no better off in regards to the law here in Ohio.  I've tried to find out what the law is, especially since some of my knives may be illegal no matter where they are, but it seems impossible.  Nobody knows.  The state doesn't know.  What information I have found is so vague as to be useless and the laws can change by crossing the street or passing through a different town. 

Usually a concealed blade longer than 3 inches is illegal. Carrying a fixed blade longer than that in an unconcealed sheath is usually okay. Switch blades are usually illegal unless you are missing a hand or crippled in one.  Your average clasp (pocket) knife are 99% of the time 3 inches and fine in any public space. Spring assisted knives such as most Kershaw (what I and most cops carry) are often up to the cop to determine if it constitutes a switchblade. I’ve had a cop check mine out just because he thought it was nice and he’s the one who gave me this information. 

I know what you mean about feeling naked without it. I’ve also carried one my entire life. Last night I went to a baseball game so left it at home, my hand kept drifting down to feel the clip on my pocket like a tongue to a chipped tooth  

[Big Jim]

54 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

It's not about balance of power. It's about the fear for your own safety.

Are you sure?  Because the way people have been citing the law is that you can't respond with more force than your attacker.  My own feeling is that the attacker is taking a chance and deserves whatever he gets.  They seem to pick on people that appear weaker than themselves and it would serve them right if some little old lady blew them away.

[Big Jim]

33 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Spring assisted knives such as most Kershaw

Most of mine are flea market knockoffs of this type.  I prefer the kind you can open with one hand, whether spring assisted or not, because if I need to cut something I'm usually holding it in the other hand.  Besides, due to a lifelong bad habit, I don't usually have enough of a nail to open the other kind.  I don't use the clip, I put it fully in my pocket.  In fact, I remove the clip whenever I can because I'm left handed and it is on the wrong side for me.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Big Jim

[Golden Duck]

3 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Are you sure?  Because the way people have been citing the law is that you can't respond with more force than your attacker.  My own feeling is that the attacker is taking a chance and deserves whatever he gets.  They seem to pick on people that appear weaker than themselves and it would serve them right if some little old lady blew them away.

Quote

Joint Public Statement from the Crown Prosecution Service and the Association of Chief Police Officers

Does the law protect me? What is 'reasonable force'?

Anyone can use reasonable force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent crime. You are not expected to make fine judgments over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you only do what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of you acting lawfully and in self-defence. This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon. As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defence.

https://www.gov.uk/reasonable-force-against-intruders

Targeting an a apparent weaker victim fits in with risk/reward thinking.  No one says they get it right all the time or even often.

[Setton]

9 hours ago, and then said:

I remember that event.  The guy WAS meddling in a stranger's actions but her partner didn't ask him to stop.  He charged out and slammed him to the ground, blindsiding him.  When that video is inspected carefully, a case can definitely be made that the shooter (the guy slammed to the ground) could see both the woman and her partner moving at the same time and he could have processed it as a continuing threat.  If someone did that to me while I'm out walking, it might well turn out to be the last mistake they ever made.  Of course, the difference is that I wouldn't have given them even a poor excuse for their actions.  I don't bother anyone at all and never even set foot on anyone's property so the whole blindsiding thing would be a level of aggression that could be construed to mean lethal intent.  That's all that is required here.  A person must meet the standard of what a "reasonable" person would believe to be a threat to their life.  The take-away lesson is "don't lay hands on a stranger and expect no consequences".  The guy was shot dead for losing his temper and behaving aggressively enough to make the idiot feel his life was being threatened.

Also, the big bad partner had a rap sheet a mile long and had a tendency to attack rather than talk.  He basically pulled his macho crap once too often and it got him dead.

See what I mean, @hetrodoxly? Always happy to find an excuse to kill people (particularly if they're a different colour). 

[hetrodoxly]

7 hours ago, and then said:

I'm not aware of any place in America where a person could kill for something like that.  I guess if the circumstances were hazy it might be possible but generally, a person has to have a reasonable cause to fear for their life.  

I didn't think that would have been true as i said in my earlier post, but Americans on here are telling me it is.

[hetrodoxly]

8 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Not even a kitchen knife?  Do chefs have to register their tools too?

I don't know where you're getting your information from on that side of the pond, what you can't do is carry a knife or gun for self defence, what you can do is use these in your everyday needs, in your job, hobby or sport, ie you could take a machete or any knife camping, you can have a none locking folding knife 3" or less in your pocket for no reason, though there are ways around this where the tang is extended and goes in line with the handle when the blade is open so your hold the blade open with your hand.

[Golden Duck]

5 hours ago, Setton said:

See what I mean, @hetrodoxly? Always happy to find an excuse to kill people (particularly if they're a different colour). 

Go back over that thread and you'll find that some users that support 'stand-your-ground' also say they saw things that weren't, and couldn't possibly be, in the video.

[+Desertrat56]

14 hours ago, OverSword said:

There is a department store that stopped selling kitchen knives and I'm not sure how nuts the government went beyond this little doozy in April of 2018

 

Link

Maybe Setton can go show his knife to a cop in London and verify this isn't still the case there.

Is comparing violence in London to the homicides in NYC a good comparison?  Are the cities of similar population?  And are the violence statistics only homicides or other violence, assualt etc.?

Edited August 8, 2019 by Desertrat56
misread something, too early

[+Desertrat56]

5 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

I don't know where you're getting your information from on that side of the pond, what you can't do is carry a knife or gun for self defence, what you can do is use these in your everyday needs, in your job, hobby or sport, ie you could take a machete or any knife camping, you can have a none locking folding knife 3" or less in your pocket for no reason, though there are ways around this where the tang is extended and goes in line with the handle when the blade is open so your hold the blade open with your hand.

I got my information from someone in this thread.  I guess I could scroll back and point the posts out, someone saying no one is allowed to defend themselves in the U.K.

Thank you for explaining it.

[+OverSword]

22 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Is comparing violence in London to the homicides in NYC a good comparison?  Are the cities of similar population?  And are the violence statistics only homicides or other violence, assualt etc.?

Who was comparing? London, a year ago had more knife murders than New York had gun murders. Another huge problem in London at the time was people throwing acid in the faces of delivery drivers and robbing them. I believe a couple of them were blinded and many were scarred.

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

Who was comparing? London, a year ago had more knife murders than New York had gun murders. Another huge problem in London at the time was people throwing acid in the faces of delivery drivers and robbing them. I believe a couple of them were blinded and many were scarred.

OK.  So why didn't you say that to being with.  "more violence than homicides in New York City" is not the same thing.  I was just asking for clarification.  And if you want to compare homicides, NYC is not at the top of the list in the U.S.  I think Philidelphia is close to the top and Wilmington, Deleware stays near the top.  But I would be interested in a comparison by population.  NYC had 8.623 million people in 2017.

[+OverSword]

5 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

OK.  So why didn't you say that to being with.  "more violence than homicides in New York City" is not the same thing.  I was just asking for clarification.  And if you want to compare homicides, NYC is not at the top of the list in the U.S.  I think Philidelphia is close to the top and Wilmington, Deleware stays near the top.  But I would be interested in a comparison by population.  NYC had 8.623 million people in 2017.

There was a link to an article in my post. Just click it if you’re interested.

[+Desertrat56]

4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

There was a link to an article in my post. Just click it if you’re interested.

Sorry, I don't usually click links. 

[Setton]

15 hours ago, OverSword said:

There is a department store that stopped selling kitchen knives and I'm not sure how nuts the government went beyond this little doozy in April of 2018

 

Link

Maybe Setton can go show his knife to a cop in London and verify this isn't still the case there.

Granted its a clumsy soundbite but he's clearly referring illegal knives. As in, over 3"/locking/not carried for a specific, legal purpose. 

The Mayor doesn't make the law and the law is clear: under 3" and folding = legal. Over 3" or locking = you need to have a valid reason to carry in public. 

[Setton]

51 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Who was comparing? London, a year ago had more knife murders than New York had gun murders. Another huge problem in London at the time was people throwing acid in the faces of delivery drivers and robbing them. I believe a couple of them were blinded and many were scarred.

'Many' is stretching it somewhat. 

[+OverSword]

25 minutes ago, Setton said:

'Many' is stretching it somewhat. 

104 acid attacks in the first five months of 2018 but nobody got hurt.  Except maybe the blind guys.  On the plus side that number was down from the same period in 2017