What happens if a signal is found?

[Hazzard]

1 hour ago, Hazzard said:

sry wrong topic

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Hazzard

[Dejarma]

7 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Therefore you are asking irrelevant questions.

ok, so you feel it's irrelevant.... can you just answer it anyway to keep my small brain happy

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

And your pal Xenofish will be here soon too

You need to pay better attention. I've already been in this thread.

[XenoFish]

7 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

@OverSword, although most agree with you, the phenomena of quantum interactions are believed to happen 10,000 faster than the speed of light by this research group "...a team of physicists led by Juan Yin at the University of Science and Technology of China in Shanghai"  link

Even if such communication between us and alien life were possible. Translation might be a huge issue. Unless they evolved similarly to us.Then again that still might be a problem. The word "apple" might be a call to war for them. So until it happens we just do not know. 

In regards to alien visitors, they might be highly advanced sentient machines instead of actual alien life-forms. That's just my take. 

[ThereWeAreThen]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Even if such communication between us and alien life were possible. Translation might be a huge issue. Unless they evolved similarly to us.Then again that still might be a problem. The word "apple" might be a call to war for them. So until it happens we just do not know. 

In regards to alien visitors, they might be highly advanced sentient machines instead of actual alien life-forms. That's just my take. 

Good day sir or madam! Would one like an apple?

 

Ugh sir they seem to have targeted all of our bases...

[XenoFish]

Just now, ThereWeAreThen said:

Good day sir or madam! Would one like an apple?

 

Ugh sir they seem to have targeted all of our bases...

I can see that happening. 

Human: We shall kill all of you!!!

Alien: My aren't they the most loving things, such sweet words.

[ThereWeAreThen]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I can see that happening. 

Human: We shall kill all of you!!!

Alien: My aren't they the most loving things, such sweet words.

Eastenders? These must be the brightest of the species! We must communicate with them at once!

To anyone who doesn't know what eastenders is. Don't bother looking it up.

[Duke Wellington]

Can I have a link to the article saying scientists figured out quantum state transfer using non-locality occurs at 10,000 times the speed of light? As everything I know and have learned about says its instant.

There is another way too to break the light barrier - quantum tunnelling.

If aliens setup a negative energy field across space and sent communication through it by encoding it onto a laser beam then it would get the information to the destination faster than light. If that negative energy field exists from the laser emitter all the way to the receiver it might well be instant

https://www.iflscience.com/physics/quantum-tunneling-is-so-quick-it-could-be-instantaneous/

I remember at technical college watching a quantum tunnelling experiment where CD music was encoded onto a laser, beamed across the room, and the receiver was playing it out of the speaker. The controversial thing was that careful analysis using some sensitive timing devices showed that the music was coming out of the speakers before it had even be read off the CD.

Edited August 11, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, Dejarma said:

all due respect but you still haven't answered the question..

I'll ask again:

in your made-up scenario= what were you told about the distant object to know it's there in the first place?

There was a paper going around from a physicist at MIT (but unfortunately I cannot remember his name).

He put together a theory that aliens could be using stars as the medium through which to communicate faster than light. His paper showed that photons being emitted in opposite directions from a star are in entanglement with each other. 

With information transfer through interdependent existence you need to know that there is a star emitting light. The sender of information and the receiver also need to be the same distance away from that star. The entangled photons arriving at the sender and receiver share a non-local connection and interdependent existence (which is a little different from non-locality, not exactly the same).

I have an example that would allow not only FTL communication here on Earth, but would allow communication from the future to the present as well.

[stereologist]

1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

Can I have a link to the article saying scientists figured out quantum state transfer using non-locality occurs at 10,000 times the speed of light? As everything I know and have learned about says its instant.

There is another way too to break the light barrier - quantum tunnelling.

If aliens setup a negative energy field across space and sent communication through it by encoding it onto a laser beam then it would get the information to the destination faster than light. If that negative energy field exists from the laser emitter all the way to the receiver it might well be instant

https://www.iflscience.com/physics/quantum-tunneling-is-so-quick-it-could-be-instantaneous/

I remember at technical college watching a quantum tunnelling experiment where CD music was encoded onto a laser, beamed across the room, and the receiver was playing it out of the speaker. The controversial thing was that careful analysis using some sensitive timing devices showed that the music was coming out of the speakers before it had even be read off the CD.

The article you link to makes the following statement

Quote

“This doesn't necessarily mean the superluminous speeds could be used to carry information.”

I find your claims of the CD experiment to be unlikely to be correct. It is unlikely that circuits are encoding information they had no received, that a laser is transmitted information not yet received, and finally that a speaker has begun to move before the information is read off the CD. That's not how the macroscopic world works.

[Dejarma]

5 minutes ago, stereologist said:

I find your claims of the CD experiment to be unlikely to be correct

yep, I meant to comment on this ridiculousness but forgot

[stereologist]

What I am finding is that quantum entanglement cannot send information faster than the speed of light.

Here are links.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/137-physics/general-physics/particles-and-quantum-physics/810-does-quantum-entanglement-imply-faster-than-light-communication-intermediate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem

 

[Duke Wellington]

58 minutes ago, stereologist said:

The article you link to makes the following statement

I find your claims of the CD experiment to be unlikely to be correct. It is unlikely that circuits are encoding information they had no received, that a laser is transmitted information not yet received, and finally that a speaker has begun to move before the information is read off the CD. That's not how the macroscopic world works.

Give over, quantum tunnelling and the transfer of quantum states are not the same thing. 

The speeds an object can normally travel at range from 0 to 300,000 km per sec (the speed of light). Negative energy increases the width of that range. An example would be -50,000 to 300,000 km per sec. So the object now has to travel at 350,000 km per sec to be at light speed.

Quantum tunnelling uses a laser shot through an area of negative energy. While technically the speed of light has been altered in that area not broken, the fact remains you can get a signal to its destination ahead of time. With your quote, you can only use the transfer of quantum states to transfer probabilistic information.

Edited August 11, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[stereologist]

2 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Give over, quantum tunnelling and the transfer of quantum states are not the same thing. 

The speeds an object can normally travel at range from 0 to 300,000 km per sec (the speed of light). Negative energy increases the width of that range. An example would be -50,000 to 300,000 km per sec. So the object now has to travel at 350,000 km per sec to be at light speed.

Quantum tunnelling uses a laser shot through an area of negative energy. While technically the speed of light has been altered in that area not broken, the fact remains you can get a signal to its destination ahead of time. With your quote, you can only use the transfer of quantum states to transfer probabilistic information.

I never stated or suggested anything like that.

Please show us this negative energy you claim exists. That's right it is not known to exist but is hypothetical. And you are pretending that a speculation is actually real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_energy

SO right here is your made up stuff: "Quantum tunnelling uses a laser shot through an area of negative energy." That's not correct is it?

Are you now claiming that you have shown that a well known and proved theorem is wrong?

Let me help you understanding quantum tunneling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling

Quote

Quantum tunnelling or tunneling (see spelling differences) is the quantum mechanical phenomenon where a subatomic particle passes through a potential barrier.

It does not require lasers or the hypothetical negative energy.

I also notice that you are not attempting to defend the obviously flawed statements about the CD demonstration.

[Duke Wellington]

59 minutes ago, stereologist said:

I never stated or suggested anything like that.

Please show us this negative energy you claim exists. That's right it is not known to exist but is hypothetical. And you are pretending that a speculation is actually real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_energy

SO right here is your made up stuff: "Quantum tunnelling uses a laser shot through an area of negative energy." That's not correct is it?

Are you now claiming that you have shown that a well known and proved theorem is wrong?

Let me help you understanding quantum tunneling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling

It does not require lasers or the hypothetical negative energy.

I also notice that you are not attempting to defend the obviously flawed statements about the CD demonstration.

Its not made up stuff, and your Wiki link doesnt say its hypothetical. If you scroll down the Virtual Particles are the ones used in Quantum Tunneling to do the FTL information transfer of music.

Read your own link please.

Edited August 11, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[Trelane]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 9:10 AM, ThereWeAreThen said:

I honestly wouldn't blame the government(s) for covering it up IF a signal was received. Have you seen the human race? People have known to die on Black Friday sales..

So you're saying the aliens are bringing free HD flat screen TVs and tablets??? Sweet! Time to get my ski mask and brass knuckles ready. I will punch an alien in the face for a free TV!

[stereologist]

1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

Its not made up stuff, and your Wiki link doesnt say its hypothetical. If you scroll down the Virtual Particles are the ones used in Quantum Tunneling to do the FTL information transfer of music.

Read your own link please.

I did read the link. Apparently you didn't.

Quote

Negative energy is a concept used in physics to explain the nature of certain fields,

It's a concept. It's used to explain certain issues about fields. It doesn't state that anyone has shown negative energy to exist. It is an assumption, i.e. it is hypothetical.

Nowhere have you showed any of your claims such as the CD story or the negative energy increasing the speed range.

[Hazzard]

20 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I'll print it again and see if you are missing something in what I wrote.

 

look closely. Give up?   

  Reveal hidden contents

could have

 

So, are we just going to ignore the fact that you stuck your entire face in the fan here or are you going to admit that you didnt have a clue what you yourself posted?! 

You wrote "They could and have covered up Alien UFO incidents"...  

 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

8 hours ago, Hazzard said:

Im not the one missing something here. You wrote "They could and have covered up Alien UFO incidents"... Now go back and read that post of yours again.  

Yes I missed it, GoldenDuck picked up on it and I went back and checked. 

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, stereologist said:

I did read the link. Apparently you didn't.

It's a concept. It's used to explain certain issues about fields. It doesn't state that anyone has shown negative energy to exist. It is an assumption, i.e. it is hypothetical.

Nowhere have you showed any of your claims such as the CD story or the negative energy increasing the speed range.

For Gods sake they have been able to make it for 50 years.

What is wrong with the quality of the debate on this topic. All you need is two mirrors (or reflective surfaces) and a vacuum in between to make the stuff.

[stereologist]

1 minute ago, RabidMongoose said:

For Gods sake they have been able to make it for 50 years.

What is wrong with the quality of the debate on this topic. All you need is two mirrors (or reflective surfaces) and a vacuum in between to make the stuff.

Please support your statement. I am not going to believe someone that told the CD story without some evidence.

Just in case you want to move the goal posts here is a list of some of your claims.

1. Show that negative is more than a concept.

2. Show that negative energy widens the speed range.

3, Show that there is a way to communicate with quantum entanglement.

Furthermore, I believe your mirrors claim is wrong. Please do correct me with links supporting your statements.

 

Here is a link discussing the history and nature of negative energy.

https://sciencestruck.com/concept-of-negative-energy-in-physics-explained

This discusses the Casimir effect which might be what you referred to quite incorrectly. The Casimir effect relies on negative energy. It does NOT produce negative energy as you so incorrectly stated. It also requires that the distance between the plates is small. The use of metal plates is there to eliminate the force being due to EM. The lightweight plates are there to reduce the influence of gravity.

 

There, I did number 1 for you. Now support the rest of the stuff you claimed and please skip over that ridiculous CD claim.

 

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, stereologist said:

Please support your statement. I am not going to believe someone that told the CD story without some evidence.

Just in case you want to move the goal posts here is a list of some of your claims.

1. Show that negative is more than a concept.

2. Show that negative energy widens the speed range.

3, Show that there is a way to communicate with quantum entanglement.

Furthermore, I believe your mirrors claim is wrong. Please do correct me with links supporting your statements.

Please note early on him telling you that negative mass is key to creating a warp drive, time travel, and then a few seconds later going FTL.

At High School people get given a demonstration of the curvature of space-time. Its usually a video showing a rubber sheet that they put a bowling ball on. A negative mass ball doesnt cause a dip in the rubber sheet but a peak. Its the negative curvature of space-time.

Do you get it yet? If you fire a laser through an area of space with negative curvature then it travels faster than light through it. Technically it isn't actually going FTL, its that the speed of light itself has been altered in that area of space. Now for Negative energy.

Negative energy is when there is less energy than absolutely no energy. You might think creating that is impossible but it isn't. I have chosen an example off YouTube where a physicist explains how an object can be colder than absolute zero using negative energy. If you read the summary comments on it, then it tells you this has been experimentally verified.

There are various types of negative energy that have been produced including virtual particles via the Casimir force.

Casimir Force: Space is full of electro-magnetic radiation emitted by stars. Most of that is outside the visible range that our eyes can detect. Take two objects, place them near each other with a gap in between, and what happens? The wavelengths of electro-magnetic radiation larger than the gap get excluded producing a pressure force which attracts the two objects together. That is negative energy.

Negative Energy Production using Mirrors

The Uncertainty Principle means that you cannot know the location and energy of an atomic particle at the same time. That isn't due to the limitations of our technology, thats how reality behaves at the atomic level. As such, the vacuum of space is not empty but has virtual particles popping into and out of existence all the time. That is covered in the above video too.

Lets go back to the two objects with a gap between them excluding wavelengths of electro-magnetic radiation. With virtual particles they pop into and out of existence between them too. In the above video he also tells you if you move one object near too and away from the other fast you can turn some of those virtual particles into real particles

You dont need to do that, you can just use two mirrors or reflective surfaces. As you know mirrors and reflective surfaces reflect photons. So with the virtual particles that pop into existence, the virtual photon ones get reflected back and forth. Waves dont work like particles (and photons are normally waves) so when the maths is done it shows an accumulation of negative energy between the two mirrors or reflective surfaces attracting them together. That is negative energy. I cannot find a video on that as its too specialised but I can tell you a book that explains the experiment which is where I first learned about it. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100034.Quantum

Quantum Entanglement

I also cannot find a YouTube video on two atom correlation experiments although a search on google reveals plenty of technical papers. In fact that MIT guy I referred too earlier who proposed that aliens might be using stars to communicate FTL is a variant of a two atom correlation experiment. What it does is enable probabilistic communication.

In essence you have two streams of atoms behaving as waves that are in correlation with each other. One stream is directed to your location, one to mine. While neither of us measures our stream of atoms they produce interference patterns on screens. But when its time for me to come around and visit you, I measure mine, it collapses both mine and your interference patterns, and seeing your interference pattern collapse you know I am on my way around. Hence I have sent a signal to you.

Quantum Cryptography

We can also use that to send a signal to each other by deliberately collapsing the cryptography key (its wavefunction collapsed through measurement). If I collapse it the wavefunction is destroyed for you too so we can agree that as a signal that I am coming around.

Edited August 11, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[stereologist]

2 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Please note early on him telling you that negative mass is key to creating a warp drive, time travel, and then a few seconds later going FTL.

At High School people get given a demonstration of the curvature of space-time. Its usually a video showing a rubber sheet that they put a bowling ball on. A negative mass ball doesnt cause a dip in the rubber sheet but a peak. Its the negative curvature of space-time.

Do you get it yet? If you fire a laser through an area of space with negative curvature then it travels faster than light through it. Technically it isn't actually going FTL, its that the speed of light itself has been altered in that area of space. Now for Negative energy.

Negative energy is when there is less energy than absolutely no energy. You might think creating that is impossible but it isn't. I have chosen an example off YouTube where a physicist explains how an object can be colder than absolute zero using negative energy. If you read the summary comments on it, then it tells you this has been experimentally verified.

There are various types of negative energy that have been produced including virtual particles via the Casimir force.

Casimir Force: Space is full of electro-magnetic radiation emitted by stars. Most of that is outside the visible range that our eyes can detect. Take two objects, place them near each other with a gap in between, and what happens? The wavelengths of electro-magnetic radiation larger than the gap get excluded producing a pressure force which attracts the two objects together. That is negative energy.

Negative Energy Production using Mirrors

The Uncertainty Principle means that you cannot know the location and energy of an atomic particle at the same time. That isn't due to the limitations of our technology, thats how reality behaves at the atomic level. As such, the vacuum of space is not empty but has virtual particles popping into and out of existence all the time. That is covered in the above video too.

Lets go back to the two objects with a gap between them excluding wavelengths of electro-magnetic radiation. With virtual particles they pop into and out of existence between them too. In the above video he also tells you if you move one object near too and away from the other fast you can turn some of those virtual particles into real particles

You dont need to do that, you can just use two mirrors or reflective surfaces. As you know mirrors and reflective surfaces reflect photons. So with the virtual particles that pop into existence, the virtual photon ones get reflected back and forth. Waves dont work like particles (and photons are normally waves) so when the maths is done it shows an accumulation of negative energy between the two mirrors or reflective surfaces attracting them together. That is negative energy. I cannot find a video on that as its too specialised but I can tell you a book that explains the experiment which is where I first learned about it. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100034.Quantum

Quantum Entanglement

I also cannot find a YouTube video on two atom correlation experiments although a search on google reveals plenty of technical papers. In fact that MIT guy I referred too earlier who proposed that aliens might be using stars to communicate FTL is a variant of a two atom correlation experiment. What it does is enable probabilistic communication.

In essence you have two streams of atoms behaving as waves that are in correlation with each other. One stream is directed to your location, one to mine. While neither of us measures our stream of atoms they produce interference patterns on screens. But when its time for me to come around and visit you, I measure mine, it collapses both mine and your interference patterns, and seeing your interference pattern collapse you know I am on my way around. Hence I have sent a signal to you.

Quantum Cryptography

We can also use that to send a signal to each other by deliberately collapsing the cryptography key (its wavefunction collapsed through measurement). If I collapse it the wavefunction is destroyed for you too so we can agree that as a signal that I am coming around.

In video number 1 there is no claim that negative mass exists. The use of negative mass in calculations of semiconductor behavior are done, but are not this type of negative mass.

1. Show that negative is more than a concept.

Video 1 does not show that it is anything other than an idea. In fact it suggests at the end that negative masses do not exist. This is all highly speculative theoretical physics with no experimental evidence supporting the ideas.

2. Show that negative energy widens the speed range.

Video 1 does not show that negative energy widens the speed range. It never mentions speed.

 

On to video 2. You wrote "I have chosen an example off YouTube where a physicist explains how an object can be colder than absolute zero using negative energy." Yet he makes it abundantly in the video that the results are NOT colder. I guess you didn't listen to the video. Yu also get it wrong because he repeatedly says these are not colder temperatures, but temperatures hotter than infinity. All of this comes about because  he chooses a different manner in which to measure temperature.

1. Show that negative is more than a concept.

I agree that the Casimir effect is a demonstration that negative energy does exist. What it does not do is create negative energy. According to the links I provided negative energy is produced just releasing an object in a gravitational field. Links I produced also say this is inaccurate: " Negative energy is when there is less energy than absolutely no energy. " You claim " a physicist explains how an object can be colder than absolute zero using negative energy. " I don't think you watched the video. He is very explicit that this is not the same as the nano kelvin temperatures achieved, but a material with a negative beta.

 

You got the Casimir effect completely wrong. It has nothing to do with EM. The point is to eliminate the EM force. That is why metal is used in the experiment. It has nothing at all to do with EM because as you described it the effect would not involve negative energy. It has nothing to do with excluding EM larger than the gap. That would still allow light and high in the gap.

 

This is not correct: " The Uncertainty Principle means that you cannot know the location and energy of an atomic particle at the same time. " It is position and momentum that are the pairs. There are  other pairs as well.

I appreciate you finding these videos. They are interesting. You should watch them yourself.

I'll get to video 3 shortly

[stereologist]

4 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

 

Negative Energy Production using Mirrors

The Uncertainty Principle means that you cannot know the location and energy of an atomic particle at the same time. That isn't due to the limitations of our technology, thats how reality behaves at the atomic level. As such, the vacuum of space is not empty but has virtual particles popping into and out of existence all the time. That is covered in the above video too.

Lets go back to the two objects with a gap between them excluding wavelengths of electro-magnetic radiation. With virtual particles they pop into and out of existence between them too. In the above video he also tells you if you move one object near too and away from the other fast you can turn some of those virtual particles into real particles

You dont need to do that, you can just use two mirrors or reflective surfaces. As you know mirrors and reflective surfaces reflect photons. So with the virtual particles that pop into existence, the virtual photon ones get reflected back and forth. Waves dont work like particles (and photons are normally waves) so when the maths is done it shows an accumulation of negative energy between the two mirrors or reflective surfaces attracting them together. That is negative energy. I cannot find a video on that as its too specialised but I can tell you a book that explains the experiment which is where I first learned about it. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100034.Quantum

Quantum Entanglement

I also cannot find a YouTube video on two atom correlation experiments although a search on google reveals plenty of technical papers. In fact that MIT guy I referred too earlier who proposed that aliens might be using stars to communicate FTL is a variant of a two atom correlation experiment. What it does is enable probabilistic communication.

In essence you have two streams of atoms behaving as waves that are in correlation with each other. One stream is directed to your location, one to mine. While neither of us measures our stream of atoms they produce interference patterns on screens. But when its time for me to come around and visit you, I measure mine, it collapses both mine and your interference patterns, and seeing your interference pattern collapse you know I am on my way around. Hence I have sent a signal to you.

Quantum Cryptography

We can also use that to send a signal to each other by deliberately collapsing the cryptography key (its wavefunction collapsed through measurement). If I collapse it the wavefunction is destroyed for you too so we can agree that as a signal that I am coming around.

Besides the wrong pair of conjugates there is  no need to use mirrors as you claim. You mention moving the "mirrors" fast. Fast i n this scenario is at relativistic speeds. The reason for relativistic speeds is told earlier in the video. The plates must move fast enough to  interfere with the particles annihilating each other and vanishing.

This physicist does NOT mention negative energy. He discusses virtual particles. That is another means of describing physics.

Then you mention quantum cryptography. It does NOT use entanglement to communicate information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cryptography

As I pointed out there is a proved theorem that says entanglement cannot be used to communicate information.

 

Just in case you want to move the goal posts here is a list of some of your claims.

1. Show that negative is more than a concept.

2. Show that negative energy widens the speed range.

3, Show that there is a way to communicate with quantum entanglement.

 

You've shown number 1 to be more than a concept, but you've also shown that are other interpretations of physics that do not involve negative energy.

You failed to support number 2.

You failed to support number 3.

 

[Tatetopa]

If we detect a signal and determine it has content, non-randomness encoding some message, it may not be for us.  Maybe we are just in the beam edge of two civilizations talking that are not aware of us.