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Hazzard

What happens if a signal is found?

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Hazzard
1 hour ago, Not Invented Here said:

Finally there is 'Oumuamua. The first object ever detected as arriving from outside our solar system. Weird things about it: It may as much as ten times as long as it is wide - at 230m long, that is an unnatural shape. It arrived on the sort of trajectory that earth scientists use when sending probes around the solar system, it will have got a good 'look' at three of the four rocky inner-system planet circling our sun (that includes earth). Unsurprisingly, lots of telescopes were trained on it, including SETI ones. Result? Looks like a boring rocky surface. No signals emanating from it. Probably a rock. It's also going too fast to realistically catch up with it. But then... on the way out of our system it starts to accelerate in a way not due to gravity.... 

 

I think the guys at JPL found that the speed boost was consistent with the behavior of a comet. Part from the obvious gravity sling there is the matter of jets of gaseous material expelled from its surface. This same kind of outgassing affects the motion of many comets in our solar system.

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stereologist
Posted (edited)

Hello Not Invented Here. Enjoyed your previous post. I wanted to point out that the inability to decode some ancient human languages is in part due to the limited amount of data that is available. Decoding something becomes much easier as more of the data is available. Think of it this way, suppose a guess is made as to meaning. There is limited data allowing that guess to be checked.

I think it is important to point out that if we do find a message from aliens it is unlikely that the message was intended as some form of hello message. That makes it harder to decode. In the movie and novel 2001, the monolith has exact dimensions in the ratio of 1, 4, 9. That's a communication. But let's suppose someone picks up I Love Lucy shows. If they do they will also see a regularity to the signal - something sort of the 1:4:9 of the monolith. It's part of the NTSC standard. Or maybe it is one of the other standards. Regardless, all of the methods currently employed to send information have a standard and those standards are based on math. Unless there is a significantly different math we have not discovered it is likely that at a minimum we can begin to recognize the general content of the transmission.

Nice to have you  here.

Edited by stereologist
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OverSword
1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

 

Pffffft I never voted for that guy! #NotMyEmperor

The inquisition shall be paying you a visit shortly.

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Not Invented Here
48 minutes ago, Hazzard said:

I think the guys at JPL found that the speed boost was consistent with the behavior of a comet. Part from the obvious gravity sling there is the matter of jets of gaseous material expelled from its surface. This same kind of outgassing affects the motion of many comets in our solar system.

I won't pretend I'm an expert. I'm an interested amateur, but as I understand it that argument is inconsistent with that fact that there was clearly no cometary tail when it was first detected, and it was not spinning regularly, instead it was tumbling in a complex way. 

"In fact, infrared observations from the Spitzer Space Telescope pretty much ruled out the release of carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide — two compounds commonly found in comet tails." If it was water then: "the outgassing that does occur [in objects we know to be comets] turns these comets into fuzzy dots, in stark contrast to ‘Oumuamua’s star-like appearance in images." 

So that last article I link to, suggests that it is a light sail - it's unexpected acceleration is due to solar radiation pressure - it's just a naturally occurring light sail due to its incredibly low density. Such a low density means that the tumble must have an extremely recent cause (impact) as low density objects that are tumbling just re-form relatively rapidly around a new axis.

At the very least its an astonishing stack of coincidences for the very first object which we detect from outside of the solar system.

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Hazzard
13 minutes ago, Not Invented Here said:

I won't pretend I'm an expert. I'm an interested amateur, but as I understand it that argument is inconsistent with that fact that there was clearly no cometary tail when it was first detected, and it was not spinning regularly, instead it was tumbling in a complex way. 

"In fact, infrared observations from the Spitzer Space Telescope pretty much ruled out the release of carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide — two compounds commonly found in comet tails." If it was water then: "the outgassing that does occur [in objects we know to be comets] turns these comets into fuzzy dots, in stark contrast to ‘Oumuamua’s star-like appearance in images." 

Yes, usually, when comets are warmed by the Sun they eject dust and gas, which form a cloud of material. But there was speculations that it was venting unusually large coarse dust grains. The team speculated that perhaps the smaller dust grains adorning the surface of most comets eroded during Oumuamuas journey through interstellar space, with only larger dust grains remaining. Though a cloud of these larger particles would not be bright enough to be detected. 

In the end sadly Im guessing that we will never know for sure,... I was truly hoping for something spectacular when I first begun learning about this back in Oct 2017.

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stereologist

Here is another article which states that it is not a light sail or anything like that.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/mysterious-oumuamua-space-object-has-finally-been-identified-ncna887821

Quote

"Unexpectedly, we found that Oumuamua was not slowing down as fast as it should have under gravitational forces alone," Micheli said in a statement.

His team concluded that the unexpected motion of Oumuamua had to be caused by the spewing out of small quantities of gaseous materials from its surface. This "outgassing" — commonly seen in comets — was too small to be visible but significant enough to affect Oumuamua's trajectory.

But not everyone is buying that explanation — at least not completely.

Timelines are important and this comes from July 1, 2018.

This link is from May 23, 2019

https://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/oumuamua-comet-fragment/

This link is from November 2018

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-14/scientist-who-discovered-oumuamua-says-its-not-alien/10495366

This is from July 1, 2019

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/07/190701144539.htm

Some suggest it and some suggest it is not something artificial.

The real issue here, especially for the science impaired, is that this is the manner in which science works. Facts are collected. More facts are collected. Interpretations of the fats are used to support or reject various hypotheses.

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Not Invented Here
34 minutes ago, Hazzard said:

In the end sadly Im guessing that we will never know for sure,... I was truly hoping for something spectacular when I first begun learning about this back in Oct 2017.

Absolutely, at least we'll likely never know in our life times!

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Not Invented Here
13 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Some suggest it and some suggest it is not something artificial.

The real issue here, especially for the science impaired, is that this is the manner in which science works. Facts are collected. More facts are collected. Interpretations of the fats are used to support or reject various hypotheses.

I've enjoyed very many of your posts stereologist, so thanks for the interaction and your wider point is surely right.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that this is little green men. Just very much of interest.

If we're capable of building something that can catch up to it in eg a hundred years time, then I would do that just to double check! :)

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Earl.Of.Trumps
7 hours ago, Hazzard said:

Well, if they have covered it up then how come you know about it? ...and for the love of God please dont say Roswell or some other dead horse!!  

I'll print it again and see if you are missing something in what I wrote.

 

23 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

They could and have covered up Alien UFO incidents. They just deny these UFO reports and let the people argue. Inevitably, people back the government even if the government coverup is obvious 

look closely. Give up?   

Spoiler

could have

 

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Captain Risky
On 8/10/2019 at 1:04 AM, stereologist said:

Detection of a signal is one thing, but interpreting that signal would be more interesting of course. That would be the ability to understand some of the information in the signal.

 

I can imagine a show on an alien planet in which the aliens observe our shows, detected and interpreted old TV shows. Then the alien celebrities sit around and make funny comments about us.

They don't have to meet us to laugh at us.

I would think that any alien civilisation wishing contact would cleaver enough to make any message one in math or pictures. its a given.

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Captain Risky
On 8/9/2019 at 11:37 PM, the13bats said:

now more savvy than myself members will correct my flaws here but im under the impression that even we got a signal, a message from some alien race, it wouldnt matter much as it will still take so long for a reply to reach them its not like texting your bff

not sure how writers jumped this in contact and species, splice etc sci fi flicks

...again you're just assuming based on our level of technology. A common mistake you and stereo make all too often. 

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stereologist
3 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I would think that any alien civilisation wishing contact would cleaver enough to make any message one in math or pictures. its a given.

 

3 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I would think that any alien civilisation wishing contact would cleaver enough to make any message one in math or pictures. its a given.

ut what if the message is an internal one and not made for general consumption. We do not transmit radio or TV signals with the notion that anyone will examine them.

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stereologist
2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

...again you're just assuming based on our level of technology. A common mistake you and stereo make all too often. 

Oh please tell us al what mistake you think is being made. Can't wait

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Captain Risky
1 minute ago, stereologist said:

 

ut what if the message is an internal one and not made for general consumption. We do not transmit radio or TV signals with the notion that anyone will examine them.

Good point. Still, maybe its our lack of technology thats stopped us from picking up more signals. Assuming that there are any out there of course. 

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Captain Risky
2 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Oh please tell us al what mistake you think is being made. Can't wait

Errr... i clearly just said it. 

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stereologist
1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

Good point. Still, maybe its our lack of technology thats stopped us from picking up more signals. Assuming that there are any out there of course. 

Of course there are limits to picking up signals. The signal has to  be stronger than the noise to allow a signal to be picked up. Eventually making a device more sensitive means it picks up too much nose and no signal can be seen over the noise. Our guess is that aliens are as smart as we are or smarter. They do  not want to transmit at frequencies which are noisy due to the way our universe operates. These are the ideas that SETI has thought about. You might want to check up there and learn.

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stereologist
3 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Errr... i clearly just said it. 

Not at all. You stated nothing but rather inept innuendo.

Please tell us what mistake has been made or apologize.

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Orphalesion
2 hours ago, OverSword said:

The inquisition shall be paying you a visit shortly.

Pish-Posh. My Tau Friends and the nice men in the strange robes that live down the street support me on this.

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RabidMongoose
3 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Of course there are limits to picking up signals. The signal has to  be stronger than the noise to allow a signal to be picked up. Eventually making a device more sensitive means it picks up too much nose and no signal can be seen over the noise. Our guess is that aliens are as smart as we are or smarter. They do  not want to transmit at frequencies which are noisy due to the way our universe operates. These are the ideas that SETI has thought about. You might want to check up there and learn.

Why would aliens be communicating with our technology?

They will be communicating faster than light with a technique we dont know about yet. And it will be secure communication that other aliens cannot listen in too.

 

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Captain Risky
1 minute ago, stereologist said:

Of course there are limits to picking up signals. The signal has to  be stronger than the noise to allow a signal to be picked up. Eventually making a device more sensitive means it picks up too much nose and no signal can be seen over the noise. Our guess is that aliens are as smart as we are or smarter. They do  not want to transmit at frequencies which are noisy due to the way our universe operates. These are the ideas that SETI has thought about. You might want to check up there and learn.

Maybe. But any signal coming in intentionally would mean that the civilisation making the signal is doing so in the belief that it will lead to contact other wise it would be as you say just internal chatter for domestic consumption. Which would mean they would either be close by. Or they would imbed the message with the means to send and receive future messages directly. 

Yes by all means post some of these idea's that SETI has thought about so we can all learn. 

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stereologist
11 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Good point. Still, maybe its our lack of technology thats stopped us from picking up more signals. Assuming that there are any out there of course. 

Have you ever looked into information theory? Have you ever taken an introductory course in physics?

 

Then you'd know that the question you pose is without merit.

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stereologist
1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

Maybe. But any signal coming in intentionally would mean that the civilisation making the signal is doing so in the belief that it will lead to contact other wise it would be as you say just internal chatter for domestic consumption. Which would mean they would either be close by. Or they would imbed the message with the means to send and receive future messages directly. 

Yes by all means post some of these idea's that SETI has thought about so we can all learn. 

Falsehood : " the civilisation making the signal is doing so in the belief that it will lead to contact "

Are you claiming "I Love Lucy" was meant for aliens?

Messages in general are meant for directed communication.

A message meant for general consumption is an SOS or Mayday signal. There is an international convention t hat ... --- ... means a request for help. That is a signal NOT normally sent. Normal communications are not intended for people other than an intended target.

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Captain Risky
3 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Falsehood : " the civilisation making the signal is doing so in the belief that it will lead to contact "

Are you claiming "I Love Lucy" was meant for aliens?

Messages in general are meant for directed communication.

A message meant for general consumption is an SOS or Mayday signal. There is an international convention t hat ... --- ... means a request for help. That is a signal NOT normally sent. Normal communications are not intended for people other than an intended target.

No not claiming That I love Lucy was meant for aliens. Thats about as far i got in getting anything logical outta your posts. By all means have a breather and we can talk some more. :)

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stereologist

Captain Risky wrote this: " ...again you're just assuming based on our level of technology. A common mistake you and stereo make all too often.  "

I asked for clarification. None was given.

I can only assume that this was another unsupported comment of no merit.

Here is an important concept that everyone should understand: information theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory

The idea comes from a simple question, is there a limit to how clever we can be to sending  information?

As an example, can I send the entire Encyclopedia Brittannica on a 16K modem in 1 second?

The answer is no and Shannon did the math to show the limits of information transfer.

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stereologist
1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

No not claiming That I love Lucy was meant for aliens. Thats about as far i got in getting anything logical outta your posts. By all means have a breather and we can talk some more. :)

Thanks for showing your lack of undestanding when it comes to information theory. Please help yourself greatly by learning about it.

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