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Scudbuster

A Universe Not Made For Us

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spartan max2
21 hours ago, Habitat said:

Multiple sclerosis is not a congenital disease

Thanks, I went ahead and Google it off your post.

I always assumed MS was inhereted. Though I guess most things are a mix of both now. 

Edited by spartan max2

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Crazy Horse
17 minutes ago, joc said:

Of course the planet is not trying to kill us. It does not know if it is killing us or not. It is however a very hostile planet. It is the very hostility of the planet that  caused life to evolve the way it did.

And I agree with you crazy horse. It is the hostility within our own beings that creates problems for not only our own selves but for the rest of mankind as well.

Furthermore, death is a part of life. That does not mean however that life continues after death except through procreation which is why life pro-creates to begin with.

I do not think we get a do-over. Which is why it is so important to live our lives to the fullest that we can without harming ourselves, harming each other, or harming the planet.

In the end it is the very gravity that keeps us here that does eventually kill us. But there is no planet that we know of that is less hostile to life.

There is enlightenment. It is that enlightenment that allows us to be the best humans that we can be.

I honestly believe, and have experienced for myself, (and here's the subjective opinion that science hates) but that when I do good, one might say, when I serve Creation, then Creation serves me, in other words, what you give is what you get. Anyway, the point is, that this planet is not hostile to those who serve, help, and love Creation. In fact, in my experience, this world is very welcoming and accommodating to those who give selflessly - this is my experienced anyway!

And as for gravity killing us.....those who love soo much, and find a Real inner peace, may actually be able to defy gravity??? Besides astronauts that is!!!

 

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joc
9 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I honestly believe, and have experienced for myself, (and here's the subjective opinion that science hates) but that when I do good, one might say, when I serve Creation, then Creation serves me, in other words, what you give is what you get. Anyway, the point is, that this planet is not hostile to those who serve, help, and love Creation. In fact, in my experience, this world is very welcoming and accommodating to those who give selflessly - this is my experienced anyway!

And as for gravity killing us.....those who love soo much, and find a Real inner peace, may actually be able to defy gravity??? Besides astronauts that is!!!

 

As for gravity... it is what causes us to age. From my own personal experience, I have never known of anyone who has not died. Inner peace creates a more peaceful existence while we are alive , but it does not keep us from dying.

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joc
30 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I honestly believe, and have experienced for myself, (and here's the subjective opinion that science hates) but that when I do good, one might say, when I serve Creation, then Creation serves me, in other words, what you give is what you get. Anyway, the point is, that this planet is not hostile to those who serve, help, and love Creation. In fact, in my experience, this world is very welcoming and accommodating to those who give selflessly - this is my experienced anyway!

And as for gravity killing us.....those who love soo much, and find a Real inner peace, may actually be able to defy gravity??? Besides astronauts that is!!!

 

The other thing is... Serving creation. Creation implies that we were created. If we were created this implies that there was some life form somewhere that created us and everything else. The problem lies in the creation of the creator. It has always been the case. How can something come from nothing? This is the great conundrum.

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joc
1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

Thanks, I went ahead and Google it off your post.

I always assumed MS was inhereted. Though I guess most things are a mix of both now. 

MS is a condition involving the deterioration of the sheath which is around the nerves. It is very difficult to Diagnose.

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Crazy Horse
47 minutes ago, joc said:

As for gravity... it is what causes us to age. From my own personal experience, I have never known of anyone who has not died. Inner peace creates a more peaceful existence while we are alive , but it does not keep us from dying.

I think that life is eternal, and perhaps there are folk who can over-come the physical death - who knows for sure?

But for me, its our "sins" that kill us.

Sin being a missing of the mark, i.e., a failure to love when the opportunity arises, or a hateful action instead of a compassionate response. This to me is a sin, and this to my mind is what is actually killing us.

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joc
1 minute ago, Crazy Horse said:

I think that life is eternal, and perhaps there are folk who can over-come the physical death - who knows for sure?

But for me, its our "sins" that kill us.

Sin being a missing of the mark, i.e., a failure to love when the opportunity arises, or a hateful action instead of a compassionate response. This to me is a sin, and this to my mind is what is actually killing us.

Mother Teresa died.  Jesus died. Buddah died. I tend not to think of  Sin as anything.  Birds don't sin. Armadillos don't sin, scorpions don't sin,  spiders don't sin.  All life dies. Death is a result of aging...and I suspect very strongly that gravity plays a very huge role in aging.

That being said... please name one species of life, plant, animal , human that has not died.

 

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Crazy Horse
34 minutes ago, joc said:

The other thing is... Serving creation. Creation implies that we were created. If we were created this implies that there was some life form somewhere that created us and everything else. The problem lies in the creation of the creator. It has always been the case. How can something come from nothing? This is the great conundrum.

For me, "God" whatever THAT actually IS, and nobody knows, implies at least in the broadest of terms Something above and behind this dualistic universe. Something Eternal and uncreated. Something that has always been and shall always exist.

This universe I see as being held in the Mind of THE ALL, and therefore a created thing. Think - the difference between mind and consciousness, one is illusory, fleeting and therefore unreal in the ultimate sense, and the other is Eternal, God-Stuff.

God wouldn't be God if THAT had been created!

Its a Mystery to be sure...

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Crazy Horse
3 minutes ago, joc said:

Mother Teresa died.  Jesus died. Buddah died. I tend not to think of  Sin as anything.  Birds don't sin. Armadillos don't sin, scorpions don't sin,  spiders don't sin.  All life dies. Death is a result of aging...and I suspect very strongly that gravity plays a very huge role in aging.

That being said... please name one species of life, plant, animal , human that has not died.

 

And that is why this human life is so amazing and so full of potential. 

Animals don't have a choice and therefore don't sin, and therefor have very little chance of making any great spiritual progress in this life... But I must admit, the word sin has many religious connotations which are to a big part nonsensical, that is why I gave my perspective, clearly I hope?

Death on the other hand in a misnomer, an illusion, not a reality of life, we  life continues on after death. The NDE and past life regression/remembrances point us to this much.

Individual lives die, Life itself is eternal, One day you will leave your physical body and know the truth for yourself, until that day, I wish you nothing but good stuff.

 

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Horta
11 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

A computer program is not consciousness, free will, or non-deterministic behaviour. Its a list of computer code designed to try and mimic them. If you cannot grasp that basic concept then there is no actual point debating with you as you either arent intelligent enough or are so deeply biased you distort away simplistic truths to fit your worldview.

Never wrote that a computer was conscious (it isn't), but that's a good way to deflect from everything I did write.

Once again. Can you define what you mean by "consciousness", so that we can look at your claims in context.

Can you define "free will" so that we can have context there as well.

Then when we both understand what you are claiming, we can get to the part where you back up your claims (hopefully with things such as neuroscience experiments). After all, we wouldn't want to be guided by unbacked assumptions and as you say, spouting claims/theories without evidence is a no-no.

Have you got anything indicating a consensus amongst cosmologists (ie. an accepted theory) regarding how "the universe came into existence", to back that claim? I can't find anything.

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joc
2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And that is why this human life is so amazing and so full of potential. 

Animals don't have a choice and therefore don't sin, and therefor have very little chance of making any great spiritual progress in this life... But I must admit, the word sin has many religious connotations which are to a big part nonsensical, that is why I gave my perspective, clearly I hope?

Death on the other hand in a misnomer, an illusion, not a reality of life, we  life continues on after death. The NDE and past life regression/remembrances point us to this much.

Individual lives die, Life itself is eternal, One day you will leave your physical body and know the truth for yourself, until that day, I wish you nothing but good stuff.

 

In the real world...life is life and death is the end of individual life.  

I know you are a good person and will leave it at that.  And I wish  you nothing but good stuff!  

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joc
2 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Something that has always been and shall always exist.

Perhaps that is the Universe itself.  

I however do not think along those lines.  How the universe came to be is a calling for a pay grade higher than mine.   If we are going to consider a consciousness that has always been...the same question applies to that consciousness as our own.  Where did that consciousness come from?  An unanswerable question and so...why ponder it?  I don't.  What I do ponder is why anyone would actually believe a consciousness could be that had no beginning.

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littlebrowndragon

My take on Sagan's video:

It is an advert for science. Like all advertising, it is riddled with lies and deceit.

It is, Sagan asserts, only through science, not religion, that we can get at the truth of existence.  Unfortunately, Sagan does not appreciate just how much in common there is between science and religion.  In the first instance, both are founded on belief.  Over the centuries there have been many suggestions put forward about the nature of existence.  For example, the philosopher Descartes suggested two options, namely that the world is either a material world or, alternatively, a dream ( i.e. a virtual reality) world.  Science has chosen the former and proceeds as if this were true, when in fact it is only an assumption, is only a belief.  Science has not proved that we live in a material world.  Another similarity between science and religion is the concept of sinners.  There is sinning in the religious sense i.e. not obeying the strictures of one's religion. Sinning in a scientific context is to, say, behave in such a way as to. cause climate change (which is, in effect, to not obey the strictures of science i.e. the rules upon which science assumes the material world is founded).

Sagan also attempts to persuade us that the scientific view of the world is the true version on the basis that it does not attempt to deceive i.e. it tells it like it is.  By deceive, I mean that he says that religions are in some way comforting because they assert that the world is made for us, whereas science treats us like grown ups and warns us of e.g. climate change (don't know if that example was mentioned in the video but that sort of thing was).. 

 

In response to this, I look to my own personal experience.

 

I am not religious, but when younger I was brought up to go to church until I was old enough to make up my own mind about god.  Before becoming an atheist I cannot say that I found religion particularly comforting, especially the concept of hell.  I did not view the painter Hieronymus Bosch's depictions of hell with any sense of comfort whatsoever.  They terrified me. So, if I don't believe in god then that is what is in store for me?  if I do not do god's will, then that is in store for me?  What on earth is comforting about that?

Science too was, and still is, at the same game.  If anything, the scientific version of hell was/is more frightening because there is no escape for sinners, not even belief in a god and hence being saved.  So, it frightened me that the sun would expand and swallow the earth.  It didn't matter that this would happen long after I was dead.  It was still frightening. Then there was the prospect of a large meteor strike of the magnitude of that which destroyed the dinosaurs.  Now there's a comforting thought.  Science is also "discovering" all sorts of ghastly diseases from which I may die a horrible, lingering death.  Is that at all comforting?  No.  Then there is the prospect of starvation because the world cannot support its population.  The list of scientific horrors goes on and on and was I still a child they would frighten me even more than they did when I was a young adult..

So, whatever the truth about science, it is nonetheless playing the same game as religion.  It depicts a hell from which it can save us.  Well, except the real horror is that science, by its own admission, cannot necessarily save us.  So, it can only save me from cancer, say, when it discovers a cure.  And that is still a looooong way of.

 

So, I maintain that science is simply playing the same game as religion in order to frighten us into believing in it instead of religion.. 

Edited by littlebrowndragon
afterthoughts
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lightly
20 hours ago, joc said:

Mother Teresa died.  Jesus died. Buddah died. I tend not to think of  Sin as anything.  Birds don't sin. Armadillos don't sin, scorpions don't sin,  spiders don't sin.  All life dies. Death is a result of aging...and I suspect very strongly that gravity plays a very huge role in aging.

That being said... please name one species of life, plant, animal , human that has not died.

 

   The human species has not died.     :P

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lightly

What if time is not the way we think it is? and does not work the way we think it does?  or is even Real?

..just a thought..and I'm sure I'm not the first to wonder that.

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Cookie Monster
3 hours ago, lightly said:

What if time is not the way we think it is? and does not work the way we think it does?  or is even Real?

..just a thought..and I'm sure I'm not the first to wonder that.

You might be interested in the Standard Model of particle physics.

That lists all the known particles and forces. Guess what? There is no gravity in it. Thats right, no particle has ever been detected to account for why objects are gravitationally attracted to each other. There is absolutely nothing in current models of the atom to account for it.

We dont know what it is, what causes it, where it comes from, and why it exists. But Einstein found a relationship between it and time. We might have to wait centuries before we actually find out what it and time are.

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joc
1 minute ago, RabidMongoose said:

You might be interested in the Standard Model of particle physics.

That lists all the known particles and forces. Guess what? There is no gravity in it. Thats right, no particle has ever been detected to account for why objects are gravitationally attracted to each other. There is absolutely nothing in current models of the atom to account for it.

We dont know what it is, what causes it, where it comes from, and why it exists. But Einstein found a relationship between it and time. We might have to wait centuries before we actually find out what it and time are.

Dark Matter

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Cookie Monster
Just now, joc said:

Dark Matter

Dark Matter what?

I`m sorry but I need more than two word answers if you are trying to make a point.

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joc
2 minutes ago, joc said:

Dark Matter

I thought there was a link between gravity and particles and..........dark matter.

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Cookie Monster
1 minute ago, joc said:

I thought there was a link between gravity and particles and..........dark matter.

With Einstein`s Relativity it doesnt explain how gravity works at extremely small distances and on the galactic scale.

Focusing on the galactic scale then the existence of dark matter is one hypothesis. Its the idea there might be sub-atomic particles that interact with gravity but not the 3 forces in the Standard Model. It isn't proven, no such hidden sector particles has yet been detected, but it is still possible.

It still wouldnt explain gravity, just why gravity on a galactic scale is stronger than what relativity predicts. We still need a gravity particle, or some kind of new physics to explain what it is.

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joc
1 minute ago, RabidMongoose said:

With Einstein`s Relativity it doesnt explain how gravity works at extremely small distances and on the galactic scale.

Focusing on the galactic scale then the existence of dark matter is one hypothesis. Its the idea there might be sub-atomic particles that interact with gravity but not the 3 forces in the Standard Model. It isn't proven, no such hidden sector particles has yet been detected, but it is still possible.

It still wouldnt explain gravity, just why gravity on a galactic scale is stronger than what relativity predicts. We still need a gravity particle, or some kind of new physics to explain what it is.

My thinking is that it has to do with Mass displacing Dark Matter.  I know nothing.  Not pretending too.

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Cookie Monster
6 minutes ago, joc said:

My thinking is that it has to do with Mass displacing Dark Matter.  I know nothing.  Not pretending too.

No one at all knows what it is.

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Horta
2 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

No one at all knows what it is.

It does at least have clear definition though lol.

How are you going with your own requested definitions? 

I'm beginning to think you were simply spouting vague, new age airy fairy beliefs that have been mistaken for facts, along with a little quasi philosophy (well not really, that much was always obvious). Perhaps you should have a "personal belief alert" caveat somewhere, to make this more obvious.

I don't have that much interest in discussing consciousness either, at least not with someone who hasn't even given it enough thought to be able to define what they are talking about (much less an unwillingness to back any claims). Because the likelihood it will amount to "fairies in the garden" seems quite high.

Though it would be fascinating to see your proposal of how matter, when arranged in a certain way can have "free will". The experiments have surely made you a Nobel Laureate? They would surely be lauded by every religious institution (their type of "free will" has long been discarded by most mainstream academics). Then again, you don't seem to have given that enough thought to have a definition either.

Given the nature of your relevant post, the underlined part must surely get the cigar for humour and irony though lol.

On 11/9/2019 at 6:21 AM, RabidMongoose said:

Theories without proof are dangerous especially when communicated to easy influenced and susceptible people. It leads them astray. And atheism is currently unfalsifiable because we dont have the technology or understanding of physics to understand what consciousness even is.

:lol:

ps. you might find that atheism is an easily falsifiable stance (only requires a certain imaginary being to stop being imaginary), and what might be more relevant is that you don't know what consciousness is.

 

 

a

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Cookie Monster
10 hours ago, Horta said:

It does at least have clear definition though lol.

How are you going with your own requested definitions? 

I'm beginning to think you were simply spouting vague, new age airy fairy beliefs that have been mistaken for facts, along with a little quasi philosophy (well not really, that much was always obvious). Perhaps you should have a "personal belief alert" caveat somewhere, to make this more obvious.

I don't have that much interest in discussing consciousness either, at least not with someone who hasn't even given it enough thought to be able to define what they are talking about (much less an unwillingness to back any claims). Because the likelihood it will amount to "fairies in the garden" seems quite high.

Though it would be fascinating to see your proposal of how matter, when arranged in a certain way can have "free will". The experiments have surely made you a Nobel Laureate? They would surely be lauded by every religious institution (their type of "free will" has long been discarded by most mainstream academics). Then again, you don't seem to have given that enough thought to have a definition either.

Given the nature of your relevant post, the underlined part must surely get the cigar for humour and irony though lol.

:lol:

ps. you might find that atheism is an easily falsifiable stance (only requires a certain imaginary being to stop being imaginary), and what might be more relevant is that you don't know what consciousness is.

Eh? Whats this got to do with dark matter?

It is science which doesnt know what consciousness is, not my own invention. It cannot be replicated it can only be mimicked with computer code.

Edited by RabidMongoose

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Horta
On 11/11/2019 at 10:50 PM, RabidMongoose said:

Eh? Whats this got to do with dark matter?

 

It has more to do with you making outlandish statements, and an avoidance at backing them up.

Quote

It is science which doesnt know what consciousness is, not my own invention.

Everything that anyone has, will, or can ever experience, happens because of the physical nervous system (that is made up of ordinary old matter). Namely activity in the brain. So we don't even need a specific definition of consciousness (which you seem unable to supply anyway) to know what it is. It is neural activity in the brain and all explanations/definitions begin from this fact. 

Quote

It cannot be replicated it can only be mimicked with computer code.

"Yet". It's unreasonable to think we could or should, at this stage. Once we can scan the brain at high enough resolution and have the technology to replicate it, then we will know if it can be done.

There are lots of things we can't replicate, which doesn't in any way infer that we don't know what they are. We know a lot more about "consciousness" (depending on definition) than many other things that are taken for granted. It's human bias that gives (the poorly defined term) consciousness such a mystique. 

Edited by Horta

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